The real problem with Vancouver’s outrageous house prices

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by s211

And here perhaps the crux of the issue, or at least one that gets very little acknowledgement: people think we can build new apartment supply to fix the affordability issue, but stop and think for a moment that maybe it's not shoebox apartments that people want. Not everyone wants to live in cubbyholes. In fact, a whole heck of a lot of people don't want to.

Originally Posted by Rusty Gull

Personally, I was priced out of the City of Vancouver years ago. I wound up relocating to the North Shore (North Van City) which offered much of the upside of the city, but with cheaper housing costs. At the time, the costs to rent and/or buy were much cheaper. Yet folks in the City would dismiss a place like Lower Lonsdale out of hand, on the grounds that they could not possibly leave the urban center. In other words, if you were a middle-income earner, you could either a) buy outside of the city limits, or East/South Van; or b) rent in the city.

It's doesn't have to be a choice of cubbyhole in CoV vs house with yard out in the Fraser Valley. When I was looking for a place I honed in on Burnaby along the Expo Line - central so I could get to most areas via transit easily, and not as expensive as CoV (plus I'd lived here before and liked the area). I also avoided looking at new buildings due to size - I've seen 2 bedroom suites listed nowadays that are almost the same size as my 1 bedroom suite. There's also quite a bit of open space here that makes up for the lack of a private yard.

There are options if people can get over the fact that the CoV is not the center of the universe. But as has been noted, that elitism exists.

[shreddog]

Originally Posted by Rusty Gull

...
But to the writer of the Tyee article about leaving Vancouver, I might ask: Why didn't you give New West a shot in the first place?

two reasonably "comparable" houses in New West and Calgary - but $500K apart.

FWIW - they both have a walk score of 72/73, though in case of the Calgary house, if you worked DT, you could be there (Core shopping ctr) in 35 minutes by walking, whereas the New West house would take 48 minutes by transit to Pacific Place.

Some may consider this comparable - perhaps the author didn't.

[Cypherus]

Let's play Devil's advocate here for pointing out the elephant in the room:

1)Most people lining up outside a presale condo, or invited to a VIP presale appointment, are of a certain demographic that is firsthand driving up the condo market.
2)A friend at CRA has indicated that many people of the same ethnic background are purposely not reporting their offshore businesses in China while being a Canadian resident. The Canadian government has been paying them GST credits and Canadian Child Benefits when, in this one case, that person was a millionaire and had 6 million net worth (living in Grey Point).
3)FINTRAC has been monitoring obvious money laundering cases predominantly involving Chinese investors depositing money into Canada. In one instance, for example, the Chinese Canadian Permanent Resident took money from offshore investors to invest in real estate on their behalf, but ended up stealing their money and keeping it for themselves, protected by Canadian borders.
4)The mindset of mainland Chinese is that their wealth is not protected from the government, so dumping it overseas like in Vancouver keeps it secure. Like a bare trust. They don't care how much it costs them, as long as it is protected from Chinese government appropriation.

Again, this has trickled its way into real estate in Vancouver. If one is a multimillionaire mainland Chinese investor, what is $400K for a one bedroom condo in Surrey (now) to keep that money clean and away from Chinese government? They don't care - if it's a cost of doing business, then so be it.

It never had anything to do with supply/demand. The real estate market supply and demand curves in Vancouver were never driven predominantly from locals once Vancouver advertised itself overseas as a utopia for foreign wealth.

[Abii]

Originally Posted by Cypherus

Let's play Devil's advocate here for pointing out the elephant in the room:

1)Most people lining up outside a presale condo, or invited to a VIP presale appointment, are of a certain demographic that is firsthand driving up the condo market.
2)A friend at CRA has indicated that many people of the same ethnic background are purposely not reporting their offshore businesses in China while being a Canadian resident. The Canadian government has been paying them GST credits and Canadian Child Benefits when, in this one case, that person was a millionaire and had 6 million net worth (living in Grey Point).
3)FINTRAC has been monitoring obvious money laundering cases predominantly involving Chinese investors depositing money into Canada. In one instance, for example, the Chinese Canadian Permanent Resident took money from offshore investors to invest in real estate on their behalf, but ended up stealing their money and keeping it for themselves, protected by Canadian borders.
4)The mindset of mainland Chinese is that their wealth is not protected from the government, so dumping it overseas like in Vancouver keeps it secure. Like a bare trust. They don't care how much it costs them, as long as it is protected from Chinese government appropriation.

Again, this has trickled its way into real estate in Vancouver. If one is a multimillionaire mainland Chinese investor, what is $400K for a one bedroom condo in Surrey (now) to keep that money clean and away from Chinese government? They don't care - if it's a cost of doing business, then so be it.

It never had anything to do with supply/demand. The real estate market supply and demand curves in Vancouver were never driven predominantly from locals once Vancouver advertised itself overseas as a utopia for foreign wealth.

I hate posts like this. What's your solution? What do you propose? To ban foreign investment? That would barely achieve anything. It would only delay purchases. You can send your kid to any Canadian university for a bit, get him/her to become a perm. resident or even a citizen and then go nuts.

Vancouver does have a supply and demand issue. Look at the supply graph below:


We're at all time lows. In any other city/country, you'd see cranes on top of cranes, but here in Vancouver you have less construction going on than in Barnaby!!! The idiotic view cones and height restrictions are only making things worse.

I'm not saying foreign money is not at play here, of course it is. But even if you want to claim that foreign money is the primary reason for all this, the only solution is to increase supply. Vancouver is doing the opposite. Not only nothing is being planned, the view cones are capping whatever gets built.

[Pinion]

Originally Posted by Abii

But even if you want to claim that foreign money is the primary reason for all this, the only solution is to increase supply. Vancouver is doing the opposite. Not only nothing is being planned, the view cones are capping whatever gets built.

The only solution is to ban foreign ownership. Increasing supply has done nothing and will never do anything because we are an insignificant ant compared to the hundreds of thousands of secret multi-millionaires pouring out of China.

And when people talk about "Vancouver" they aren't just talking about the CoV. The entire metro is messed up and it's spreading to Abbotsford, Squamish, Victoria and beyond. View cones are insignificant.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by Abii

We're at all time lows. In any other city/country, you'd see cranes on top of cranes, but here in Vancouver you have less construction going on than in Barnaby!!! The idiotic view cones and height restrictions are only making things worse.

I'm not saying foreign money is not at play here, of course it is. But even if you want to claim that foreign money is the primary reason for all this, the only solution is to increase supply. Vancouver is doing the opposite. Not only nothing is being planned, the view cones are capping whatever gets built.

Here are CMHC Government Housing Starts statistics. Vancouver has had 1,000 more housing starts in the first 9 months of the year than Burnaby has, with 3,515 in the first nine months of the year, compared to Burnaby's 2,552.

Most of last year's housing starts are under construction now. There were 9,759 started in the City of Vancouver, and 4,172 in Burnaby. (There were 3,471 in Surrey).

There are more units under construction in Vancouver now than at any time in recent history. There were twice as many housing starts in Vancouver than in Burnaby in 2015, more than double in 2014, nearly three times as many in 2013, and in 2012.

In the past five years there were 11,500 housing starts in Burnaby, and over 30,000 in the City of Vancouver.

[Abii]

Originally Posted by Pinion

The only solution is to ban foreign ownership. Increasing supply has done nothing and will never do anything because we are an insignificant ant compared to the hundreds of thousands of secret multi-millionaires pouring out of China.

And when people talk about "Vancouver" they aren't just talking about the CoV. The entire metro is messed up and it's spreading to Abbotsford, Squamish, Victoria and beyond. View cones are insignificant.

What's the point of quoting me if you don't want to discuss anything I said? What's your proof that supply has been increasing?

If supply was actually increasing, the chart I posted would look different. If supply was increasing, you would see tons of projects everywhere. When I drive through downtown, there's never anything going on. The same few projects that have been under construction are still under construction. There should be 20-30 massive high rises under construction right now. I was in Dubai back in the 90's, before the population really exploded. They were building like you can't imagine. I was a young kid back then, but I was in awe of what I was seeing around me. I'm sure you're going to counter by saying Dubai is Dubai etc..., but imagine if Dubai had sat still. Property prices would be through the roof.

Right now I can go to Dubai and buy a condo near the beach for less than a Vancouver condo. There's a ton of supply in the market and more is getting built all the time.

You want to ban foreign ownership? Explain how that would fix anything. We immigrated to Canada when I was a kid (not Chinese if you're wondering) and it took my parents 5 years before they were ready to buy a house in Vancouver. By then we were citizens. My grandparents came in shortly after and bought their own place. Do you think they would hesitate to buy if they weren't allowed to? They would just put it under my name or my brother's name. Easy!! Banning foreign ownership won't solve anything. On one hand you guys say rich foreigners are all powerful beings, on the other hand you think a simple bureaucratic red tape is going to stop them from investing in Canada

Which is it? Even if the "all powerful" rich foreigner has nobody in Canada, there are other ways to pour money into real estate here. You can do it through a corporation. You can pour money into REITs. You can send someone over and get them to become a resident or a citizen. It's not rocket science.

[Abii]

Originally Posted by Changing City

Here are CMHC Government Housing Starts statistics. Vancouver has had 1,000 more housing starts in the first 9 months of the year than Burnaby has, with 3,515 in the first nine months of the year, compared to Burnaby's 2,552.

Most of last year's housing starts are under construction now. There were 9,759 started in the City of Vancouver, and 4,172 in Burnaby. (There were 3,471 in Surrey).

There are more units under construction in Vancouver now than at any time in recent history. There were twice as many housing starts in Vancouver than in Burnaby in 2015, more than double in 2014, nearly three times as many in 2013, and in 2012.

In the past five years there were 11,500 housing starts in Burnaby, and over 30,000 in the City of Vancouver.

http://vancouversun.com/news/local-news/burnaby-outpaces-vancouver-in-tower-development

Burnaby outpaces Vancouver in tower development

Burnaby is putting up a forest of highrise residential towers over the next 25 years, far outstripping anything contemplated by Vancouver.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by Abii

http://vancouversun.com/news/local-news/burnaby-outpaces-vancouver-in-tower-development

Burnaby outpaces Vancouver in tower development

Burnaby is putting up a forest of highrise residential towers over the next 25 years, far outstripping anything contemplated by Vancouver.

That's a very poorly researched news piece. Yes, there are a few clusters of towers near transit in Burnaby, and they're all pretty much covered elsewhere here.

Similarly, there will be clusters of towers in Vancouver, in the West End, at Oakridge, in Northeast False Creek and along Cambie Street. The difference is all those other more modest developments in Marpole, and Mount Pleasant, and Southeast False Creek, and along Broadway etc. etc. They all add up to nearly three times more housing starts in Vancouver than Burnaby in the past 5 years.

There could, and likely will be just as many in the next five or ten years - there are still huge rezonings that haven't started yet, and many more waiting in the background.

[casper]

Originally Posted by Changing City

That's a very poorly researched news piece. Yes, there are a few clusters of towers near transit in Burnaby, and they're all pretty much covered elsewhere here.

Similarly, there will be clusters of towers in Vancouver, in the West End, at Oakridge, in Northeast False Creek and along Cambie Street. The difference is all those other more modest developments in Marpole, and Mount Pleasant, and Southeast False Creek, and along Broadway etc. etc. They all add up to nearly three times more housing starts in Vancouver than Burnaby in the past 5 years.

There could, and likely will be just as many in the next five or ten years - there are still huge rezonings that haven't started yet, and many more waiting in the background.

I would also toss in the Kingsway corridor that also has a good number of high rise building going up right from Boundary to Broadway.

I think the bigger problem for Vancouver is going to be land being used for these 4-5 story building. There is a lot of these low rise buildings going up in Vancouver and they are consuming quite a bit of land. At some point Vancouver is going to hit a wall along the major corridors.

[Pinion]

Originally Posted by Abii

What's the point of quoting me if you don't want to discuss anything I said? What's your proof that supply has been increasing?

If supply was actually increasing, the chart I posted would look different. If supply was increasing, you would see tons of projects everywhere. When I drive through downtown, there's never anything going on. The same few projects that have been under construction are still under construction. There should be 20-30 massive high rises under construction right now. I was in Dubai back in the 90's, before the population really exploded. They were building like you can't imagine. I was a young kid back then, but I was in awe of what I was seeing around me. I'm sure you're going to counter by saying Dubai is Dubai etc..., but imagine if Dubai had sat still. Property prices would be through the roof.

Right now I can go to Dubai and buy a condo near the beach for less than a Vancouver condo. There's a ton of supply in the market and more is getting built all the time.

You want to ban foreign ownership? Explain how that would fix anything. We immigrated to Canada when I was a kid (not Chinese if you're wondering) and it took my parents 5 years before they were ready to buy a house in Vancouver. By then we were citizens. My grandparents came in shortly after and bought their own place. Do you think they would hesitate to buy if they weren't allowed to? They would just put it under my name or my brother's name. Easy!! Banning foreign ownership won't solve anything. On one hand you guys say rich foreigners are all powerful beings, on the other hand you think a simple bureaucratic red tape is going to stop them from investing in Canada

Which is it? Even if the "all powerful" rich foreigner has nobody in Canada, there are other ways to pour money into real estate here. You can do it through a corporation. You can pour money into REITs. You can send someone over and get them to become a resident or a citizen. It's not rocket science.

Your unsourced, vague chart is useless. All it means is developers think the bubble is going to pop soon. And it looks like it's just CoV, not that I can tell because there's no info.

lol at Dubai, you mean the soulless husk of a city built on oil money by a dictatorship? The one that's been decaying since 2008? Nothing to envy or emulate there - just lessons to learn to avoid becoming the next Dubai.

Making home ownership for citizens only would absolutely help a lot, but in addition to banning foreign ownership we need tougher immigration laws with closed loopholes too.

My parents are also immigrants (American and Dutch) so stop with the SUPER PLAYED OUT xenophobic accusations. I've already checked out of this city - my immigration papers are being processed. This is about theoretically saving Vancouver, which I don't think is going to happen obviously.

Other cities/countries have at least attempted to protect their country from foreign money laundering, Vancouver has suffered more than just about everyone, so don't pretend it's impossible.

[ryanmaccdn]

Originally Posted by cornholio

Its 24 min station to station. You are saying you are a 2.5min walk to the station and a 2.5 min walk to your work? ignoring waiting for trains etc. That is very impressive indeed given there are probably only 50 or so people living that close to the train and maybe a few hundred workers that close to the Granville "platform". But you should be aware it is literally physically (unless we can fit people in some other dimensions) impossible for the vast majority (as in 99%+) of the people to be able to do this. You know New Westminster is a city and as cities go it covers some land, its not one multi km tower with super fast elevators. Since your times look highly improbable and you picked the most westerly station in New Westminster I am a bit suspect but I must believe you. I do have a task for you, time your self today from point a to b. I stand by my 45 min minimum comment for transit trip time for typical person in New West if they work in one of the major job centers like downtown / Broadway / most of the other major centers etc. (of course like I said you can have a job close by, but that is the exception not the norm and everyone literally cant do that (with out using other dimensions).

Anyways I know what good transit is and a reasonable commute. This is not it (though it could be worse). I know people in the valley commuting to UBC / Downtown daily. They are in the process of leaving the region, the nail in the coffin believe it or not is the talk of a road tax even though its just in a conceptual stage. Their top earners and they and they wont trade their house for a condo.

Yes I proudly have lived near 22nd most of my life, and understand it's a lucky area to live in with the access to transit. But again New Westminster station the key hub of transit in the city is only less than 2 additional minutes away.

The semantics of this isn't the fact you seem to believe a reasonable commute shouldn't be more than 30 mins and thinking New Westminster is some unreasonable god forsaken boonie town. Taking the B-line from downtown to the PNE on the best of days can take around the same, so I don't get why you think living in ether place is so unreasonable for most people.

Hell right now in Melbourne I am two stops from the CBD and it takes near the same time to get home than New Westminster's 10 stops and people consider it a luxury to have that.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by Abii

I hate posts like this. What's your solution? What do you propose? To ban foreign investment? That would barely achieve anything. It would only delay purchases. You can send your kid to any Canadian university for a bit, get him/her to become a perm. resident or even a citizen and then go nuts.

Vancouver does have a supply and demand issue. Look at the supply graph below:


We're at all time lows. In any other city/country, you'd see cranes on top of cranes, but here in Vancouver you have less construction going on than in Barnaby!!! The idiotic view cones and height restrictions are only making things worse.

I'm not saying foreign money is not at play here, of course it is. But even if you want to claim that foreign money is the primary reason for all this, the only solution is to increase supply. Vancouver is doing the opposite. Not only nothing is being planned, the view cones are capping whatever gets built.

First, it would be great to know the source of that chart (as per forum rules). Second, I don't buy it. As evidence of contradiction, a stat I've quoted before:

..Porter <BMO's head economist> suggested that, despite what the industry is saying, there is little evidence of an overall supply shortage.

“Housing starts in Toronto and Vancouver have been chugging along at almost 70,000 units per year recently, an all-time high, while overall Canadian starts are above demographic demand at 200,000 units in the past year,” he wrote...
http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2017/02/15/toronto-housing-bubble-bmo_n_14774526.html

Look, I totally understand why some posters feel under attack, when people post about "the Chinese driving up prices", it really should be "wealthy investors from China driving up prices" because it's really about the wealth, not a racial issue. As my partner said to me "I'm not Chinese, I wasn't born in China, I never set foot there until I was an adult". There is an inherent racism in the way we seem to cling to labelling visible minorities by their country of origin, while we don't do it to the same degree for Caucasians. I'm a child of immigrants but nobody would ever label me "British".

You're absolutely right, any solution is very hard to enforce and it would be hypocritical for governments to bring in something like a foreign ownership ban without hiring to enforce it. Otherwise it's just words. I still think requiring five years of Canadian tax return would be a good requirement. Sure, it means students and PRs might have to rent, but what's wrong with that?

[Rusty Gull]

Originally Posted by Sheba

It's doesn't have to be a choice of cubbyhole in CoV vs house with yard out in the Fraser Valley. When I was looking for a place I honed in on Burnaby along the Expo Line - central so I could get to most areas via transit easily, and not as expensive as CoV (plus I'd lived here before and liked the area). I also avoided looking at new buildings due to size - I've seen 2 bedroom suites listed nowadays that are almost the same size as my 1 bedroom suite. There's also quite a bit of open space here that makes up for the lack of a private yard.

There are options if people can get over the fact that the CoV is not the center of the universe. But as has been noted, that elitism exists.

You missed the point I was trying to make. Jurisdictions like Langley and Surrey, and even Abbotsford, have been diversifying their housing stock mix for quite a while now -- condos, townhomes, cottages, infill, etc. And for many would-be buyers in Metro Vancouver, an apartment in Surrey or a townhouse in Langley IS the only affordable ownership option. The problem in the City of Vancouver is that we never saw a serious commitment to a rich range of housing stock -beyond- 1 or 2 bedroom condominiums and single family homes. There have been some exceptions - the Oak/Cambie corridors and East Vancouver come to mind. But really, the Vancouver real estate model was sustained by low supply in the shockingly un-dense West Side, and condo densification downtown and at a few transport nodes.

At least renting has been relatively affordable within the City until the last year or so (UBC data shows that rents have lagged real estate prices for much of the last 15 years). But for folks who wanted to own, like you and your move to Burnaby, there was a sacrifice to make - give up some of your social capital to acquire long-term financial (real estate) capital. That's a hard sacrifice for people to make in their 20s and 30s, though, especially those working in the creative industries situated in Gastown and Yaletown.

I'm glad that the city is finally getting serious about this, however. When Gregor Robertson announced the pretty massive Amazon expansion in Vancouver (1,000 more jobs - that's a lot!) he also sounded pretty damn serious about remedying the city's current housing fiasco. At this point, even good news like Amazon takes on a housing dimension.

There's a great article in The Atlantic this week about affordable housing and the role of federal tax breaks. I agree with one of its key premises: That many of the solutions to the housing crunch are "the providence of local government—like rental assistance, zoning laws, construction permits, and rent control." Something to think about as people start to point fingers at eachother for the cause of the housing crunch.

[cornholio]

Originally Posted by Abii

What's the point of quoting me if you don't want to discuss anything I said? What's your proof that supply has been increasing?

If supply was actually increasing, the chart I posted would look different. If supply was increasing, you would see tons of projects everywhere. When I drive through downtown, there's never anything going on. The same few projects that have been under construction are still under construction. There should be 20-30 massive high rises under construction right now. I was in Dubai back in the 90's, before the population really exploded. They were building like you can't imagine. I was a young kid back then, but I was in awe of what I was seeing around me. I'm sure you're going to counter by saying Dubai is Dubai etc..., but imagine if Dubai had sat still. Property prices would be through the roof.

Right now I can go to Dubai and buy a condo near the beach for less than a Vancouver condo. There's a ton of supply in the market and more is getting built all the time.

You want to ban foreign ownership? Explain how that would fix anything. We immigrated to Canada when I was a kid (not Chinese if you're wondering) and it took my parents 5 years before they were ready to buy a house in Vancouver. By then we were citizens. My grandparents came in shortly after and bought their own place. Do you think they would hesitate to buy if they weren't allowed to? They would just put it under my name or my brother's name. Easy!! Banning foreign ownership won't solve anything. On one hand you guys say rich foreigners are all powerful beings, on the other hand you think a simple bureaucratic red tape is going to stop them from investing in Canada

Which is it? Even if the "all powerful" rich foreigner has nobody in Canada, there are other ways to pour money into real estate here. You can do it through a corporation. You can pour money into REITs. You can send someone over and get them to become a resident or a citizen. It's not rocket science.

As has been mentioned by me I don't understand all this over thinking. The problem is a immigration rate that is too high (through all streams combined not just the 330,000 next year). The only solution is to start cutting the rate down through all streams. Only then can you solve these issues and begin to think of other creative tweaks to make life for Canadians better.

Anyways these threads and massive blinders people have is tiring. Things will only get worse especially as the Libs just raised immigration rates by some 80,000 a year since taking power which is roughly a 30% increase and have pledged to double all other streams on top of this (temp workers and international students). This is why there are housing shortages and increasing congestion without infrastructure being able to keep up. What the quota should be I don't know but it should be a fraction of today's until these problems are fixed. Yet people are trying to propose all these silly band aids that ignore the actual problem. Too high immigration rates.

As for Dubai its a 🞵🞵🞵🞵 hole I would not put a dollar in. The culture 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 from top to bottom of that society and just so you know there are many areas in Dubai where foreigners are not able to buy and can only rent. Anyways Dubai is a poor example for everything. Oh and dont forget the slave labor they ship in from India. I have so little respect for that part of the world and most people from there.

Lastly Abii you sound very young. Everything can be done. Human history is quite colorful. I my self come from a communist country (former now but left before the leadership "changed coats") where everyone's property was very simply nationalized with little fuss. Boom done and done. Other places in the world people were lined up against a wall and shot. Never assume people have changed and society can go down hill incredibly fast. So lets hope that doesn't happen but something, anything, can always be done.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by cornholio

As has been mentioned by me I don't understand all this over thinking. The problem is a immigration rate that is too high (through all streams combined not just the 330,000 next year). The only solution is to start cutting the rate down through all streams. Only then can you solve these issues and begin to think of other creative tweaks to make life for Canadians better.

Anyways these threads and massive blinders people have is tiring. Things will only get worse especially as the Libs just raised immigration rates by some 80,000 a year since taking power which is roughly a 30% increase and have pledged to double all other streams on top of this (temp workers and international students). This is why there are housing shortages and increasing congestion without infrastructure being able to keep up. What the quota should be I don't know but it should be a fraction of today's until these problems are fixed. Yet people are trying to propose all these silly band aids that ignore the actual problem. Too high immigration rates.

As for Dubai its a 🞵🞵🞵🞵 hole I would not put a dollar in. The culture 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 from top to bottom of that society and just so you know there are many areas in Dubai where foreigners are not able to buy and can only rent. Anyways Dubai is a poor example for everything. Oh and dont forget the slave labor they ship in from India. I have so little respect for that part of the world and most people from there.

Lastly Abii you sound very young. Everything can be done. Human history is quite colorful. I my self come from a communist country (former now but left before the leadership "changed coats") where everyone's property was very simply nationalized with little fuss. Boom done and done. Other places in the world people were lined up against a wall and shot. Never assume people have changed and society can go down hill incredibly fast. So lets hope that doesn't happen but something, anything, can always be done.

Just because Vancouver and BC have utterly failed their citizens does not mean the rest of Canada should have to suffer by not having the positive economic growth effects of high immigration, and besides Vancouver's issues are not because of nationwide immigration, and even if they were it's just one city in a country of 36 million.

Cities can quite easily grow fast while still maintaining affordable housing. The rest of Canada needs a lot more population so we can have the benefits of greater population density, and to fund the looming demographic issues, and that means lots of immigration.

[Sheba]

New Immigrants From 2005 to 2014

[mezzanine]

Originally Posted by whatnext

You're absolutely right, any solution is very hard to enforce and it would be hypocritical for governments to bring in something like a foreign ownership ban without hiring to enforce it. Otherwise it's just words. I still think requiring five years of Canadian tax return would be a good requirement. Sure, it means students and PRs might have to rent, but what's wrong with that?

i'd have no problem with that (although other canadian jursidictions may. and why not just ban PRs from buying canadian property instead of adding to enforcement work load?) but if you take the longer view, it's not a high bar to pass either. if the foreign buyers tax isn't bringing prices down sustainably, don't be surprised if this doesn't.

I do think making property purchases by foreigners more difficult to favour citizens is should still be policy, knowing it's limitations. Perhaps the foreign buyer's tax and a luxury tax can be used to fund housing and transit initiatives.

And, don't do stupid stuff.

(Bing Thom) was worried about the anti-Chinese feelings that he saw coming to a boil in Vancouver.

He told me an anecdote that I later used in a story I was already working on, about mainland Chinese immigrants. He was in his car near his house on Point Grey Road when he got to a stop sign and there was some confusion between him and another driver about who should go first. The other man got upset and yelled at Bing, “You should go back to where you came from.”

“It’s the first time in 40 or 50 years where I’ve had this kind of encounter,” Bing said in his usual quiet, what-does-this-mean way. Bing had other friends, long-time Canadians like him, who’d experienced similar incidents.

It was worrying him. And this from a man who has not shied away from raising the alarm about the impact of investor money and global capital on Vancouver. It was Bing who first talked, in the early 2000s, about the danger of Vancouver turning into a resort city.

But, he said, things had gone too far. People were focusing on race now, or whether someone was from mainland China, not the real issue, which is global capital.

and, blinders.

Don’t Blame House Price Surge on Foreigners, CMHC Chief Says

“One of the real challenges of housing is that people don’t necessarily behave rationally,” he said. “Making policy that affects behaviors is a tricky thing to do.”

[CMHC Chief] Siddall was in Vancouver to give a speech on housing that delivered similar messaging: Canada’s household debt and housing problems are home-made.

“The evidence tells us that the origin of investor activity in Canadian residential real estate is predominantly domestic,” Siddall said in the speech.

[mezzanine]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Look, I totally understand why some posters feel under attack, when people post about "the Chinese driving up prices", it really should be "wealthy investors from China driving up prices" because it's really about the wealth, not a racial issue.

I still think you are mystified. When someone say, is discussing housing or the tech industry or other matters and you turn around and make fun of how other groups drive, or dehumanize them in conversation, you have to own that.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by mezzanine

I still think you are mystified. When someone say, is discussing housing or the tech industry or other matters and you turn around and make fun of how other groups drive, or dehumanize them in conversation, you have to own that.

Neither of those examples support your supposed point. One was made based on the very real fact that ICBC was withdrawing insurance from supercar buyers based on excessive claims (which are a direct consequence of bad driving) . The other pointed squarely at the wealth flowing out from China. Are you still denying that as a big factor in house prices?