Salt Lake City: Official Development News Thread - Part 5

[bob rulz]

Originally Posted by Comrade

they're just incorrectly attributing the metro size and should include the entire Wasatch Front?

Yes.

Originally Posted by airhero

Yeah this is a list of entire metro areas, not city proper. If you click on the link you will see that in this study, Salt Lake City is 27th in 2018 apartment delivery despite being the 48th largest metro. Every city ahead of Salt Lake is over twice its size (1.2 million) except for Austin (2.1 million), Nashville (1.9 million), San Jose (2.0 million), and Raleigh (1.3 million), which is in 26th place just ahead of SLC.

If you look at new apartments per capita for all metros over 600,000 people, Salt Lake is 4th, behind only Denver, Austin, and Nashville. The growth in all three of those cities is extraordinarily impressive. I don't know why we can't say the same for Salt Lake.

If, put in that context, slc's numbers still don't impress, I suppose it's because people have high expectations for this city.

Thank you for taking a deeper dive into the numbers. SLC really does have impressive apartment growth! I would love to see numbers for city propers but I'm not sure if anybody has taken that deep of a look.

Originally Posted by airhero

I think the way it is worded in the code for the Sugar House neighborhood is a portion of the ground floor of these developments must have a different use than the primary use of the building, or something along those lines. In the case of the Fairmont, it's office. I'm not disappointed with a lack of retail in Sugar House. It seems there is plenty of it. Many new apartments have incorporated retail in the base.

The only place in the city I can think of where retail is mandated is downtown for any new development built within 1/2 a block (330 feet) of Main Street.

Yeah maybe I'm being harsh. I just think that there is the potential for a really great retail corridor coming off of the end of the S-Line. That said you're right, there's quite a few of the complexes that have them, and there's set to be more with the Shopko (Park Place?) development.

[RC14]

Originally Posted by Orlando

/\/\/\
Maybe it's a fair argument to include everything from North Ogden to Payson. Seattle's Metro area includes Bellevue, Tacoma, and Everett. Both Tacoma and Bellevue have significant downtowns, and Bellevue's downtown is actually larger than Salt Lake's. Everett's downtown is probably a little larger than both Ogden's and Provo's. Tacoma is about 45 minutes to the south of Seattle too, and Everett, included in the metro, is about 45 minutes to the north of Seattle. Seattle's Metro has a population between 3.5 to 4 million. Salt Lake's would be 2.something? million. Seattle's downtown and density dwarfs Phoenix, despite Phoenix having a similar population, though.

https://www.bing.com/search?q=seattle+me...20-dfea-dbe1-7fd96e8b86c3%22&FORM=SNAPST

Seattle is a great analog for SLC. The Puget Sound area has developed the same way the Wasatch front has. If Everett/Seattle/Tacoma is one MSA than Ogden/SLC/Provo should be the same.

[delts145]

Someone mentioned that Tower 8 from that particular plot will top out at the same height as the Key Bank Tower when completed. Seems like the design is headed in the right direction, but the height of course is a bit of a let down.

Can't remember if it was Makid or who? One of you had a considerable grasp of where we were at the time with our sq. ft. rates penciling out for taller towers. Given the lack of vacant space downtown, and the deeper than normal pockets of the developer, why are they not putting at least another 10 floors onto this tower? Have we still not reached a critical enough mass? From Salt Lake's most popularly photographed angle a taller tower would look incredible there.

https://utahbusiness.com

[Comrade]

Originally Posted by bob rulz

Yes.

Fair. Then SLC is woefully under-performing its comparable population peers.

[Utah_Dave]

It would seem our next best chance for a new tallest tower would have to come from a Zion’s bank headquarters, or a home grown tech company making their mark in downtown which seems unlikely until Lehi has a negative mark against them because of traffic. Until Lehi becomes less desirable, which could be sooner rather then later if trends continue, we will be losing a lot of growth opportunities in tech. The growth in housing down town is closing that gap. We just need to entice one of the Unicorns up north and the sheep will follow.

Is Zion’s bank looking at a new headquarters or building downtown? I haven’t heard any gossip about that in a long time. Please share.

[bob rulz]

I would imagine there's still time for Tower 8 details to change. It certainly does seem that with the low office vacancy rates that we could get away with a higher tower, but as I said before, I would be grateful even for 375 feet. I'm just hoping for a distinctive roof design.

On another topic, at the risk of reviving a sensitive subject that we've been able to avoid talking about for a while, the Salt Lake Tribue released a one-year follow-up on Operation Rio Grande. It seems to be more of a success than anything else, and certainly working better than any previous effort to clean up the area, and I feel like the public perception has been mostly positive. They do really seem to be serious about long-term solutions. Then again, I'm not exactly an expert. I can just go by what I've seen, what I've heard others say, and by what the article talks about.
https://www.sltrib.com/news/politics/2018/08/12/operation-rio-grande-one/

[Makid]

Because CCR/PRI have deeper pockets, they are able to self fund their projects. They also don't want to be the only developer in town for big projects.

This is a catch-22 in the market because pre-leasing doesn't really happen in the market the same that it may happen in other markets. This means that it is harder for a developer to hit 30-50% pre-lease before a bank will provide a loan to allow construction to start on a given project.

This is one reason why the suburban market has so much commercial space compared to downtown. Loans are easier and developers can self fund easier as well.

Now, Salt, Held, Patrinely, and CCR/PRI all have commercial projects in the works. All are probably able to self fund their projects which is good for the market. It also means that nearly 1.5 Million sq ft of commercial space will be coming on the market over the few years. This will be the most in Salt Lake City history. It will also put a serious dent and slowdown in the Suburban market.

CCR/PRI having the deepest pockets, and wanting to make sure that other developer projects succeed, would build only to a point they feel comfortable with while talking to other developers to make sure they are also okay and not feeling they would loose possible tenants. This is something that other developers in other markets may not do.

Additionally, CCR/PRI can also turn down possible tenants to other developers once they have finished their projects if it helps them to expand in the downtown area. As long as they are not setting lease pricing agreements, the are free to hold out on leasing if it helps the others to succeed.

[Marvland]

Originally Posted by bob rulz

On another topic, at the risk of reviving a sensitive subject that we've been able to avoid talking about for a while, the Salt Lake Tribue released a one-year follow-up on Operation Rio Grande. It seems to be more of a success than anything else, and certainly working better than any previous effort to clean up the area, and I feel like the public perception has been mostly positive. They do really seem to be serious about long-term solutions. Then again, I'm not exactly an expert. I can just go by what I've seen, what I've heard others say, and by what the article talks about.
https://www.sltrib.com/news/politics/2018/08/12/operation-rio-grande-one/

It's a mixed bag like everything else. I would say the majority is disbursed into surrounding neighborhoods and minority went elsewhere because of the hassle. A good chunk of the drug traffic has made a comfy home at 800 W. North Temple. I did a window survey for two weeks at my business in Central Ninth and from late morning to early afternoon, sometimes 50%-75% of foot traffic is transient. Massive uptick in property crime and a few ugly assaults. Compared to pre- Rio Grand it's noticeable. I give it a D to a D- given the resources it is consuming (unsustainable levels of cash being funneled into it).

[Always Sunny in SLC]

Originally Posted by Marvland

It's a mixed bag like everything else. I would say the majority is disbursed into surrounding neighborhoods and minority went elsewhere because of the hassle. A good chunk of the drug traffic has made a comfy home at 800 W. North Temple. I did a window survey for two weeks at my business in Central Ninth and from late morning to early afternoon, sometimes 50%-75% of foot traffic is transient. Massive uptick in property crime and a few ugly assaults. Compared to pre- Rio Grand it's noticeable. I give it a D to a D- given the resources it is consuming (unsustainable levels of cash being funneled into it).

If this is the extent of the operation then I would give it a B- grade, but there is more to come. The most obvious would be the moving of the homeless shelter. The creation of the "pop up" police station(s) and continued expansion of the treatment beds and transitional housing. The city and state need to also figure out how to get the revolving people off the street. I know this is something that is being discussed intensely. I would like to see us expand the county jail for those that keep committing the same crimes in serial fashion. This would require changes to law because I would like to see a graduating penalty for those that commit a certain number of crimes in a specific time frame. That extend incarceration would hopefully motivate them to seek treatment.

[Liberty Wellsian]

Originally Posted by Comrade

Well what is it - is SLC legit smaller than these metros or do you believe they're just incorrectly attributing the metro size and should include the entire Wasatch Front? Because we really can't have it both ways. Either Salt Lake has a metro of 1.2 million or you really believe it should be 2.4 million.

No

All or half? Neither is true

I wI'll say how many other metros have their major DT so close to the border of the metro? North Salt lake and Bountiful are closer to SLC than Draper. More people from those communities work in SLC than Draper residents do.

This is just an example of a categorization (MSA) that works well most of the time but not always. The way the OMB defines an MSA is too simple. That sine definition of MSA's leads to apples and oranges comparisons.

[Liberty Wellsian]

Originally Posted by bob rulz

I would imagine there's still time for Tower 8 details to change. It certainly does seem that with the low office vacancy rates that we could get away with a higher tower, but as I said before, I would be grateful even for 375 feet. I'm just hoping for a distinctive roof design.

On another topic, at the risk of reviving a sensitive subject that we've been able to avoid talking about for a while, the Salt Lake Tribue released a one-year follow-up on Operation Rio Grande. It seems to be more of a success than anything else, and certainly working better than any previous effort to clean up the area, and I feel like the public perception has been mostly positive. They do really seem to be serious about long-term solutions. Then again, I'm not exactly an expert. I can just go by what I've seen, what I've heard others say, and by what the article talks about.
https://www.sltrib.com/news/politics/2018/08/12/operation-rio-grande-one/

So... about a month ago a good sumaritan pulled a man away from my wife and four year old on trax, Smith's on 4th has a posted security guard at the door, people are camping/shitting behind businesses on 4th south(hence the new Porta potties), this morning I saw a woman bathing in the windshield cleaner thing at gas station on 13th, and there is now a mega dumpster at Freemont park for liquor bottles. No, they haven't done a thing as far as long term solutions go. They kicked them out of an area that influential people bought the property for bottom dollar so that those people could make a killing. That's the solution

[Utah_Dave]

Test photo.

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1833/42212326390_00b0ff8cef_h.jpg

[Utah_Dave]

City creek

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1817/43302603114_8ceeef21ed_c.jpg

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1772/43302604204_46731e5042_h.jpg

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1838/42212329110_9c393d6d3c_h.jpg

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1793/42212327020_7d2551fcb7_h.jpg

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1813/43302599484_93ddf85e9f_h.jpg

Hope you can see these

[Utah_Dave]

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1793/42212327020_7d2551fcb7_h.jpg

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1813/43972727102_b33b521d56_c.jpg

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1793/42212327020_7d2551fcb7_h.jpg

A few more

[bob rulz]

Nevermind. I should have known better than to even mention the H or RG words.

Thanks for the pictures Utah Dave!

[delts145]

Great pics Utah Dave!

I'm glad you brought up the subject Bob. As everyone can imagine, the size of Los Angeles and it's often ideal weather conditions creates the perfect recipe for transient challenges. There is no easy solution, but it will take the hands on grass roots involvement of the local Utah business owners and local public in general. Utah's cooperative style history would suggest that if any area can make a significant dent in the problem, the Wasatch Front can. All major metros on the West Coast are spilling over the critical mass point with the problem, and it's going to take a herculean effort to bring the situation under control.

[grasscom]

Originally Posted by bob rulz

Nevermind. I should have known better than to even mention the H or RG words.

Thanks for the pictures Utah Dave!

You might as well have added the fact that the OR is bigger and better in Denver and also enticing large companies to move their headquarters there...

[JMK]

With operations to begin in weeks, Amazon shows off new distribution center


https://www.ksl.com/article/46375515/wit...amazon-shows-off-new-distribution-center

[Always Sunny in SLC]

Originally Posted by grasscom

you might as well have added the fact that the or is bigger and better in denver and also enticing large companies to move their headquarters there...

lmao!

[Always Sunny in SLC]

Originally Posted by delts145

Great pics Utah Dave!

I'm glad you brought up the subject Bob. As everyone can imagine, the size of Los Angeles and it's often ideal weather conditions creates the perfect recipe for transient challenges. There is no easy solution, but it will take the hands on grass roots involvement of the local Utah business owners and local public in general. Utah's cooperative style history would suggest that if any area can make a significant dent in the problem, the Wasatch Front can. All major metros on the West Coast are spilling over the critical mass point with the problem, and it's going to take a herculean effort to bring the situation under control.

One of the challenges is this issue has created a massive divergence in opinion on how to handle the it. The spectrum seems to run from one end: run them out of town/ shoot them to free housing, health/mental care and expect nothing of them in return and everything in between. The big challenge I find in this issue is regardless of your approach we are dealing with a large group of people who don't want to participate in the "system" regardless if housing is affordable or free. I used to not believe that people would not choose a life of street living and drugs if given an alternative, but that is what many do. Given that reality, then the question is what to do? I would like to see ample resources given to those who want to get off the street/ drugs and ample resources (i.e. incarceration) for those who choose the street and crime. I would come down hard on those who harass, assault or otherwise break laws while strung out. They would be offered rehabilitation, but if they decline they would be held for at least 6 months. Lastly, if you are just homeless and mind your own business then I would of course let them be. This approach would require more resources at the jail, mental health, housing, etc., but a coalition in the state should be easier to build with convergence of public health/humanitarian and economic development issues at play.