CHICAGO | General Discussions

[Busy Bee]

Correlation ≠ Causation

[llamaorama]

Geez, you guys really turned a small issue into huge fight with hyperbole and grandiose ideological bullshit...

My own opinion would be that the pragmatic approach is to fund things like the riverwalk if they are going to grow the tax base. That way there will be more resources for schools and other public services in the future. Maybe the real solution to the academic achievement gap is to deal with 'upstream' issues like poverty and social ills in those communities, schools are 'downstream' and are overstretched. I understand why some people see varying inequities and make it an issue of 'deservedness', like there are more noble causes the money should go to, but that isn't always a good way to run a city if you can see the big picture.

However I disagree with the reactionary statements made by some about the upper class being more important or 'deserving'. How is paying more taxes proportional to your income the same as having a 'target on your back'. Give me a break. I might be something of a contrarian but I despise the term 'meritocracy'. What is merit? Who decides who has it and who doesn't? Why exactly does a capitalist society need a separate system of merit? Why does someone "deserve" anything?

I like a philosophy based on equal rights, positive and negative. Equal doesn't necessarily mean 'the same', it means we all play by the same rules and have the same worth as human beings. People have a right to pursue economic gain, so naturally some people will have more monetary wealth than others. But people also have positive rights to well-being and inclusion, which demands the existence of a social safety net and civic services.

[rgolch]

^^^ happy to continue discussing in another thread. We've diverted the topic enough in this thread. But I stand by everything I said.

Anyways... back to general developments

[pilsenarch]

llamaorama, couldn't agree more.... Unicorn Wizard!

[the urban politician]

^ The bitching and moaning will never cease.

If you don't spend money in a neighborhood, you're neglecting us.

If you do spend money in a neighborhood, you're "trying to kick us out".

Oh, and Rahm has to resign!

Blame blame blame. When that's all you know how to do, that's all you'll ever do.

[Via Chicago]

Because you two just so happen to be the single two most outspoken participants on an obscure internet message board dosent mean you speak for the entire city. We get it, you got wealthy on the backs of people losing their homes in the midst an economic collapse, and now on top of it you know what's best for them too. Piss off.

[LouisVanDerWright]

Originally Posted by Via Chicago

Because you two just so happen to be the single two most outspoken participants on an obscure internet message board dosent mean you speak for the entire city. We get it, you got wealthy on the backs of people losing their homes in the midst an economic collapse, and now on top of it you know what's best for them too. Piss off.

We get it, you have no valid points and think everyone is a 65 year old entitled white guy who did nothing to earn what they have. Guess what, maybe you should pick up a hammer and bust your ass working a 40 hour a week job while renovting three flats for 40 more hours a week for 4 or 5 years and then come spout your nonsense.

No, it's not valid to complain that fixing the Logan Square traffic circulation is going to hurt poor people. No it's not valid to think that downzoning and limiting the supply of housing will somehow decrease the cost. These kinds of ideas are dangerous and stupid because the results aren't going to match the sales pitch. And when your get your absurdly illogical argument demolished you resort to personal attacks because you percieve others to be something they aren't. How do you arrive at these conclusions? Because to you success is toxic, evil, to be reviled. No one else here is stereotyping people and debasing their opinions based on totally baseless assumptions about people's age and race. There is only one person exhibiting such bigoted behavior.

[Kenmore]

Originally Posted by Via Chicago

Because you two just so happen to be the single two most outspoken participants on an obscure internet message board dosent mean you speak for the entire city. We get it, you got wealthy on the backs of people losing their homes in the midst an economic collapse, and now on top of it you know what's best for them too. Piss off.

[the urban politician]

Originally Posted by Via Chicago

Because you two just so happen to be the single two most outspoken participants on an obscure internet message board dosent mean you speak for the entire city. We get it, you got wealthy on the backs of people losing their homes in the midst an economic collapse, and now on top of it you know what's best for them too. Piss off.

Hilarious, you have no idea what you’re talking about. You want to label us as “wealthy on the backs of others” just for the convenience of making otherwise decent people look like the villains that you really want them to be.

I was doing pretty well long before I ever bought property. I am a doctor, after all, because I studied hard and gave up a lot of the fun that others have in their 20’s. But I guess I did that “off the backs of others” too.

Friggin chip on your shoulder, that’s all this is. Carry that around for the rest of your life, why don’t you?

[moorhosj]

Originally Posted by LouisVanDerWright

The labor force participation was below 60% in the 1950's and 60's until the baby boom hit the workforce and pushed it into the mid 60%'s. Now it's fallen down to 63% or so which is totally reasonable considering millions of baby boomers are retiring.

Laborforce Participation increased because women joined the workforce, not baby boomers. The baby boomers weren't part of the measurement before they were old enough to join the workforce, so that argument doesn't really pass muster. There is no need to go back 60 years, just 5 years ago we had a higher laborforce participation rate during a weak recovery. Somehow in a "booming" economy people aren't joining the laborforce, please explain as this goes against all known labor economics models. Housing starts are also down 12% compared to last year, does that sound like a "boom"?

[LouisVanDerWright]

Originally Posted by moorhosj

Laborforce Participation increased because women joined the workforce, not baby boomers. The baby boomers weren't part of the measurement before they were old enough to join the workforce, so that argument doesn't really pass muster. There is no need to go back 60 years, just 5 years ago we had a higher laborforce participation rate during a weak recovery. Somehow in a "booming" economy people aren't joining the laborforce, please explain as this goes against all known labor economics models. Housing starts are also down 12% compared to last year, does that sound like a "boom"?

No, as I said in my last post, the labor force participation rate was lower than it is now for most of the 1950's and 60's and did not start rising until the late sixties. Hmm why would that be the case??? Maybe because the baby boom started in 1948 and boomers started turning 18 in 1966? Clearly the population of women in the US peaked in the year 2000 and they have been disappearing since... Or maybe that's because, GASP, the first baby boomers turned 62 in the year 2000. Naw, the glaring and obvious correlation couldn't be related to baby boomers, it's obviously because women didn't start joining the workforce until 1966...


BLS.gov

Here's the thing, if you don't know what you are talking about, then don't spout off about it. Labor force participation, while an interesting and useful statistic, really has nothing to do with the health of the economy in this instance.

Same goes for housing starts, yes in 2008 a giant drop in starts from already collapsing levels is cause for concern. In 2018 a decline from already record levels is actually probably healthy because it indicates builders are being cautious in the face of an already amped up market. Or do you actually believe that this drop portends the second depression in 10 years? Or perhaps it's a drop like the dozens of other times they have fallen over the decades without causing recession:


Shadowstats.com

[left of center]

Originally Posted by moorhosj

Laborforce Participation increased because women joined the workforce, not baby boomers. The baby boomers weren't part of the measurement before they were old enough to join the workforce, so that argument doesn't really pass muster. There is no need to go back 60 years, just 5 years ago we had a higher laborforce participation rate during a weak recovery. Somehow in a "booming" economy people aren't joining the laborforce, please explain as this goes against all known labor economics models. Housing starts are also down 12% compared to last year, does that sound like a "boom"?

The US, and much of the first world, is getting hit by two big demographic shifts. People have been having fewer children the last 50 years as compared to the 50 year period immediately previous to that, and people are living much longer. As a result, the working age population is becoming a smaller segment of the population pie as compared to retired individuals, which has been and will continue to skew the labor participation rate downward. Here in the US that has been offset somewhat by immigration, thus sparing us the demographic crisis that countries such as Russia, Japan, Italy, Spain, etc. are facing (Russia's population is projected to drop by one third in the next 50 years, and Japan's by half. Even China is contending with a potential population implosion in the coming decades). But while our population will keep growing, the proportion of the elderly will continue to increase regardless due to life longevity. The labor participation rate will continue to decline, regardless of market/employment conditions, especially as the Boomers continue to retire en masse, which is a phenomenon that has been occurring for the last decade or so.

The decline in housing starts is definitely worrisome, and is definitely a canary in the coalmine for this now 10 year long bull market (one of the longest on record). That said, the economy is still doing quite well at the moment, as is justified by the Fed's consistent and frequent rate hikes and historically low unemployment rate. It won't last of course, and I'm sure a recession isn't too far off. The next 12 to 18 months could likely see a rapid slowing of quarterly GDP growth.

[Investing In Chicago]

Originally Posted by Via Chicago

Because you two just so happen to be the single two most outspoken participants on an obscure internet message board dosent mean you speak for the entire city. We get it, you got wealthy on the backs of people losing their homes in the midst an economic collapse, and now on top of it you know what's best for them too. Piss off.

It seems as if you have a massive chip on your shoulder, and are angry at successful people. Well I can assure you, most people who are successful, are successful because of hard work, not because they are living off of some trust fund.

Based on your posts that i've read you also come off as anti-small business, or at least anti-small business when it comes to small business' providing housing.

I just closed on a 16 unit apartment building in McKinley Park - I plan on renovating the 6 vacant units, and renting at market rate - does that make me a bad guy? or some sort of Thurston Howell III Aristocrat?

I'm the only son of parents who immigrated to the US in 1981, and grew up in a poor immigrant neighborhood in NYC, my father sold produce on Arthur Ave. in the Bronx for 25 years. I'm the first person in my extended family to graduate college (University of Michigan, class of 2005). I went the first two years of College without buying a single textbook, because I couldn't afford to buy them, and didn't want to take on a loan. I used to borrow books from others in my class and take pictures of the pages. I graduated with a 3.8GPA. Aren't I living the American Dream? At what point, in your opinion, did I turn into a greedy, capitalist monster?

I've made a 7 figure income multiple times in the past 6 years - I don't say that to brag, but to show how proud I am of the hard work I've put in to get where I am. Most people would not work as hard as I work. I flew 93 flight segments over the past 12 months for my full time job, and on the weekends, I manage all of my properties - painting hallways, landscaping, fixing clogged toilets. I know people who desperately need the money, who won't do these types of projects.

I provide housing to dozens of immigrant families throughout the City - as I'm guessing TUP and LVDW do as well.

Successful people are not the enemy in Chicago - in fact, they are the ones keeping this city from a full on collapse.

[bnk]

Top Goggle news

Top Drudge news. CHICAGOLAND: 52 people shot since Friday... Developing...




Yeah that shutting down LSD and marching by Wrigley is really working. No arrests had been made. I mean WTF is going on here. I know it was worse in the past but this is unacceptable. NYC doesn't do this, no other alpha city it the world does it either. Luckily most of them are bad shots, that's what happens when you hold your handgun on the side gansta style.

This is way we can't have good things. Now is the time to blame whitey.
H2 I hope you are not seeing this happens every weekend the temps get above 80 degrees.




http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/l...804-story.html

25 shot in multiple-victim shootings over 2.5 hours in Chicago: 'If they shoot you, they don't even run'

Four people were shot in the 1600 block of South Avers in Lawndale. Eight in the 1300 block of West 76th Street in Gresham. Six in Lawndale again. Four more in West Humboldt Park. Three others in West Garfield Park.
At least 41 people were shot from 11 a.m. Saturday through Sunday morning, four fatally, police said at a Sunday afternoon news conference. Three of those deaths happened since about midnight in a period when 35 people were shot. During one 2½-hour early-morning period alone, 25 people were shot — two fatally — in five multiple-injury shootings, police said.

One of the dead was a 17-year-old girl who was shot in the face.
Another fatality happened after sunrise, when four more were shot in South Austin.

Resources at local hospitals were taxed as victims and their families poured in. Access to Stroger Hospital was tightened. At one point, more than 200 people had converged on the hospital. Mount Sinai Hospital had to stop accepting new emergency cases for a while.
At least 16 of those shot were teenagers. At least a dozen were 17 or younger. In the shooting in Gresham, seven of the victims were 21 or younger.

…


One man stood by himself, leaning his back against a chain-link fence on the north side of 16th Street, watching police work the large crime scene to his east. He estimated more than 1,000 people had been there. He talked freely but did not want to be named. He’s lived in the neighborhood his whole life.

“I know the rules,” he said.
The man had been on his way out when he heard the gunshots, he said. He commented on the brazenness of shootings he’s grown accustomed to.
“If they shoot you, they don’t even run,” he said. “They just walk away, they ain’t trying to run.”

…

Others congregated at Mount Sinai Hospital, leaning against cars and embracing on the sidewalk. Yellow crime scene tape encircled two cars outside the emergency room, a white sedan and a black one that had its front crumpled and windshield cracked.
Mount Sinai’s emergency department for a few hours was on bypass and accepting no new emergencies “just because of the sheer amount of shootings,” said spokesman Dan Regan.

Ald. Walter Burnett, 27th, stopped by to speak with the families. Burnett said the shootings affect whole families and entire communities, as evidenced by the crowd outside Stroger.



Burnett said it’s up to the neighborhoods to stop the violence. He talked about growing up in the former Cabrini-Green housing project.
“It was the mothers, it was the preachers, it was people in the neighborhood who stopped the wars in Cabrini Green,” he said. “It wasn’t the police.”


Activist Eric Russell, an organizer of the anti-violence protest Thursday that shut down Lake Shore Drive, also spoke outside of the hospital.
“This is the reason why we march,” he said.


…

About 10 minutes earlier in West Garfield Park, three women standing on a front porch were wounded when two groups of males started shooting at each other about 2:25 a.m. in the 4700 block of West Gladys Avenue, police said. A 29-year-old woman shot in the back and 28-year-old woman shot in the left arm were taken to Stroger and stabilized. A 41-year-old woman shot in the right thigh was stabilized at Loretto Hospital.

…


Just after midnight in Lawndale, four people were shot at a block party in the 1600 block of South Avers. Two people got out of a white Chevrolet Impala, fired into the crowd and left, police said.

…

A 17-year-old girl shot in the knee was stabilized at Little Company of Mary Hospital in Evergreen Park. Another 17-year-old girl shot in the left leg was stabilized at Christ. An 18-year-old man shot in the buttocks was stabilized at University of Chicago Medical Center. A 19-year-old woman shot in the left hand was stabilized at Holy Cross Hospital. A 14-year-old girl shot in the left hand was also stabilized. A 21-year-old woman shot in the left leg was stabilized at University of Chicago. A 35-year-old man grazed in the head was stable at Holy Cross. A 19-year-old man shot in the left leg was taken to St. Bernard Hospital and stabilized.
Shortly after 12:20 a.m. in Lawndale, an 18-year-old man was shot multiple times in the 4100 block of West Cullerton Avenue. Witnesses were not cooperative, and the man was taken to Stroger under guard, police said.


…


Around 12:50 a.m. in West Humboldt Park, four people were injured in a drive-by shootout the 900 block of North Karlov Avenue. Two people fired shots from inside a black Cadillac, and three of the people hit shot back, causing the car to crash. The two in the car ran from the scene. A 43-year-old man walking down the street was shot in the thigh during the crossfire, police said. The other three people shot were a 30-year-old man hit in the right ankle and left calf; a 43-year-old man shot in the thigh; and a 29-year-old man grazed in the chest. All were taken to Stroger in good condition.

...

[bnk]

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/...105606521.html



Does drill rap incite violence in Chicago?

This controversial genre of music has been widely criticised in the US media for its violent lyrics and images.

by John Hendren
2 Aug 2018


Drill rap is a musical niche that has spread around the globe from the streets of Chicago's South Side, bringing its violent images with it.
Critics say it is also bringing violence itself, with social media spats among rappers erupting into real life gunfights.
But does the music simply reflect the violence in many urban neighbourhoods, or does it foment it?
Al Jazeera's John Hendren reports from Chicago.


…


• Video Link

[the urban politician]

^ Bnk, get a goddamned grip, man

[the urban politician]

Originally Posted by Investing In Chicago

I just closed on a 16 unit apartment building in McKinley Park - I plan on renovating the 6 vacant units, and renting at market rate - does that make me a bad guy? or some sort of Thurston Howell III Aristocrat?
.

You know what pisses me off?

About 6 years ago I had the opportunity to buy a 24 unit in McKinley Park for about $650k.

And I passed on it.

Damn!

[Via Chicago]

I dont begrudge anyone for having careers or finding success in life (although I tend to when the success is the result of predatory or economically exploitative actions). Im also not really interested in anecdotal stories of bootstraps and gumption by top 5%'ers in this country, as if timing and luck dont play equal roles. If you're at that level guess what, statistically nearly everyone you pass on the street is worse off than you are, and your story is not somehow the norm. We only tend to hear from the winners in our economic system, and as a result it distorts the way people perceive the way the system really works, or the way the odds are actually stacked. Its pure propaganda fed to the working class to keep them docile and in-line because "one day this could be you!" We're not hearing from the losers or the people who had their only homes foreclosed on during the financial crisis (forget owning investments) just so that other people could swoop in and ride massive profits a decade later. Where is their voice represented in all of this? Wheres the voice of the people who came from similar circumstances as your own and never got out? Its disingenuous of you to say "most people would not work as hard as I work" when there is a huge working/poverty class in our country that puts in insanely grueling hours at multiple jobs and sacrifices to their health simply to put food on the table. Who have seen their earnings hold stagnant for decades and their purchasing power drop, while at the same time the social safety net is systematically dismantled by the rich and powerful (and who have the opportunity to re-write the rules to favor themselves) who then have the audacity to tell them "you just need try harder". Does falling ass backwards into some rental properties that just so happened to hugely appreciate at the time you owned them, give a person the right to swagger through some of the poorest neighborhoods of the city in a leisure suit and a swinging dick acting like they hold all the answers regarding success in this country because they are fortunate enough to be landowners? Is that "contribution" to society somehow greater than that of people in countless other lines of work making infinitesimally less? Is a neighborhood the physical buildings themselves, or the people who inhabit them? Because I see a genuine lack of concern or empathy regarding the people for whom "the dream" never materializes. A shred of humbleness and self awareness dosent hurt but I guess a person who dosent possess it cant really display it.

But yea, dang, if only the family making minimum wage could have just scooped up that investment property for 650k, maybe everything would be different in their lives.

[ChiMIchael]

Absolutely no one should have to apologize for being successful. The problems lies with some people to want to trivialize immense problems in the city so they can live in their bubble. In turn, people have less incentive to add on the the successes of the city.

[Investing In Chicago]

Originally Posted by Via Chicago

I dont begrudge anyone for having careers or finding success in life (although I tend to when the success is the result of predatory or economically exploitative actions). Im also not really interested in anecdotal stories of bootstraps and gumption by top 5%'ers in this country, as if timing and luck dont play equal roles. If you're at that level guess what, statistically nearly everyone you pass on the street is worse off than you are, and your story is not somehow the norm. We only tend to hear from the winners in our economic system, and as a result it distorts the way people perceive the way the system really works, or the way the odds are actually stacked. Its pure propaganda fed to the working class to keep them docile and in-line because "one day this could be you!" We're not hearing from the losers or the people who had their only homes foreclosed on during the financial crisis (forget owning investments) just so that other people could swoop in and ride massive profits a decade later. Where is their voice represented in all of this? Wheres the voice of the people who came from similar circumstances as your own and never got out? Its disingenuous of you to say "most people would not work as hard as I work" when there is a huge working/poverty class in our country that puts in insanely grueling hours at multiple jobs and sacrifices to their health simply to put food on the table. Who have seen their earnings hold stagnant for decades and their purchasing power drop, while at the same time the social safety net is systematically dismantled by the rich and powerful (and who have the opportunity to re-write the rules to favor themselves) who then have the audacity to tell them "you just need try harder". Does falling ass backwards into some rental properties that just so happened to hugely appreciate at the time you owned them, give a person the right to swagger through some of the poorest neighborhoods of the city in a leisure suit and a swinging dick acting like they hold all the answers regarding success in this country because they are fortunate enough to be landowners? Is that "contribution" to society somehow greater than that of people in countless other lines of work making infinitesimally less? Is a neighborhood the physical buildings themselves, or the people who inhabit them? Because I see a genuine lack of concern or empathy regarding the people for whom "the dream" never materializes. A shred of humbleness and self awareness dosent hurt but I guess a person who dosent possess it cant really display it.

But yea, dang, if only the family making minimum wage could have just scooped up that investment property for 650k, maybe everything would be different in their lives.

Not sure what you mean that we are not hearing from "the losers or the people who had their only homes foreclosed on during the financial crisis"...Do you mean on this website? It's a free site, they can just as easily as post as anyone else. In real life? I hear from these people quite often - in fact, I've bailed many of them out.
I don't know about you, but as a kid growing up, my parents told me if I wanted to be successful in this country, I needed an education, and I needed to work hard, and I did. The vast majority of my peers growing up, who came from similar backgrounds, decided they would rather party on the weekends, and do cocaine and gamble than study and go mo lawns at 8a on Saturday to save up some cash. All of those kids who didn't take school seriously, didn't bust their ass to get ahead, are some of the ones struggling today. You make your bed...I have sympathy for many people who are struggling, and especially have a soft spot for the Children of these families, and the elderly, but there are too many in the city (and this Country) who are in their physical prime, and are capable of working, but have a poor me attitude, and want a handout. Life is tough, and it isn't fair. Get over it, and make it happen.
To bring this back to the river walk renovation, Downtown is the economic engine of the entire region, and is FREE to all, and benefits literally hundreds of thousands of people...