Ottawa Macdonald-Cartier International Airport (YOW/CYOW) 1.0

[MountainView]

Agreed. Thanks to everyone for posting and having a well informed discussion about our airport. Glad there are other people out there who have an interest in air travel and YOW.

[mxg308]

Originally Posted by VaskoYOW

This is the response I just received from the Airport Authority in regards to your questions;


Your email was forwarded to me for additional response. For the sake of brevity, I'll address your points in sequence.

A) 737MAX
Yes, we're well aware of the increased range of the Boeing 737MAX variants. You should also include the A321NEO-LR as it has the longest range of any commercial narrow body. For reasons previously explained, AC and WS are focused on their YYZ and YUL operations with YOW being an ideal feeder market -- nearby with steady volume justified by hourly flights to the hubs. We maintain discussions with both carriers; however, we're also pursuing other airlines with these aircraft either in operation or on their order books. The challenge with those is that AC and WS do not cooperate on feeds (e.g. YWG-YOW on AC or WS, connecting at YOW, then trans-Atlantic on a foreign flag carrier).

B) YHZ
We're well aware of YHZ and their convenient location enabling current generation narrow-body aircraft to make Trans-Atlantic destinations from Halifax. Unfortunately that's not the case for YOW. YHZ also benefits from New Brunswick, Newfoundland, and Prince Edward Island feed. Otherwise these passengers would have to backhaul (go the wrong direction) which increases cost and time. YHZ also has decent seafood freight that ships both as belly cargo on passenger aircraft as well as on pure freighters.

It should also be noted that the Province of Nova Scotia grants YHZ significant amounts of money to subsidize airlines. There is no such equivalent in Ontario.

C)
Yes, per my A response. These discussions are confidential.

D)
Yes. These discussions are confidential. You might have noticed that Swoop operates where Flair is. We maintain good discussions with Flair as well as Jetlines, should the latter get operational.

E)
SFO is a good route for a CSeries/A220. AC has these aircraft on the order books. Unfortunately most of those will be E190/A319 replacement aircraft, with only a few incremental. We maintain discussions.

UA is another possible candidate; however, 737's or A319/20's are too large for our market, and C/ERJ's can't make the range. Plus UA, like AC, doesn't like to overfly a hub. In UA's case this is ORD, which we have 3 daily flights that can connect to 15 ORD-SFO flights. Similar for AC, YOW-YYZ = 15 daily flights, then YYZ-SFO operates about 5 times daily. From a circuity perspective, not real advantage with a non-stop. From a QSI perspective, by using a hub a passenger can get to/from SFO early, mid, late, morning, afternoon, evening. A single non-stop would commit them to a single morning departure on one end and an evening departure on the other. Our SFO volume has to at least quadruple to justify morning and evening departures on both ends with a CSeries/A220, thereby requiring two aircraft and crews. We're a long way from that; however, are growing slowly and steady.

We appreciate your interest in YOW air service. Again, being in such close proximity to YYZ and YUL makes for challenging air service development, but please be assured we're doing everything possible.

Best regards,

Joel

The SFO thing to me sticks out and bear in mind that I don't work in the industry but if the Airport Authority had any imagination I think you could kill 2 birds with one stone. What if AC put an A220 on YOW-SFO and have it align with onward connections to AC838 and AC888? With the retirement of the 767s you can use SFO-YOW to help fill the larger A330 or 787 and maybe help keep AC838 year round?

With a little imagination I think you could make this work and help sustain London and Frankfurt on wide bodies. Or I'm completely insane and this would never work.

[roger1818]

One other question I would have for the airport is when calculating the potential demand for a route, are they including those who currently drive to either YUL or YYZ? In the case of YUL, it is often faster to do so if you can get a direct non-stop flight. YYZ is usually more a case of choosing a flight that doesn't have a connection to Ottawa (often a charter airline).

[YOWflier]

Originally Posted by roger1818

One other question I would have for the airport is when calculating the potential demand for a route, are they including those who currently drive to either YUL or YYZ? In the case of YUL, it is often faster to do so if you can get a direct non-stop flight. YYZ is usually more a case of choosing a flight that doesn't have a connection to Ottawa (often a charter airline).

I don't see how the Authority could count that type of bleed. If you get in your car and drive somewhere else to catch a flight, how does YOW figure that out?

Airlines, on the other hand, could theoretically mine their own data for credit card postal codes to get a sense of this number, but this type of data analytics is not the typical, traditional way of tracking pax movements. This also assumes they have the credit card data to analyze; what about when someone buys via an agent?

The notion of bleed is a very serious one for YOW but a complicated one to measure.

[Dominion301]

@VaskoYOW - the one question they didn't really answer Question "E" about developing/strengthening the existing domestic offering. Did they have anything to say about that?

A question F for them would be, what about building more seasonal/leisure routes (e.g., getting LAS back or more sun flight capacity, which has stagnated/declined in recent years). Do they talk to the carriers that do sun flying?

A question G would be is would the YOW Airport Authority ever approach an airline like YYZ's done with WS and AC and set up an 'all you can fly' fixed yearly landing fee, so that any incremental new capacity/flight frequency is 'free' to the airline while the Airport Authority benefits from the incremental terminal and AIF charges? That is one reason why I think YYZ's growth in recent years has been so explosive...to YOW's detriment.

It's nice to hear them give some decent answers. Interesting about the Nova Scotia subsidies, which are clearly paying off....CDG seasonal daily, need I say more? I hope they approach the Ontario/Quebec Governments to try and do the same thing...or could the YOW Airport Authority throw an equivalent amount of $ an airline's way, perhaps through Ottawa Tourism and the Destination Marketing Fee they collect through the hotels or through local industry?

Originally Posted by ac888yow

I don't see how the Authority could count that type of bleed. If you get in your car and drive somewhere else to catch a flight, how does YOW figure that out?

Airlines, on the other hand, could theoretically mine their own data for credit card postal codes to get a sense of this number, but this type of data analytics is not the typical, traditional way of tracking pax movements. This also assumes they have the credit card data to analyze; what about when someone buys via an agent?

The notion of bleed is a very serious one for YOW but a complicated one to measure.

One thing you could do is mine postal code data for ticket sales for YUL departures to find the K and West Quebec J postal codes. You could probably buy it from Sabre, but it probably will cost quite a bit of $ to do so. That would at least capture the outbound/origin traffic, the destination traffic wouldn't really be possible though. One other thing you could do is do pax counts at the train station for those on the AF/KL buses and maybe even poll Dorval-bound trains to see how many are going to YUL.

[bikegypsy]

Originally Posted by roger1818

One other question I would have for the airport is when calculating the potential demand for a route, are they including those who currently drive to either YUL or YYZ? In the case of YUL, it is often faster to do so if you can get a direct non-stop flight. YYZ is usually more a case of choosing a flight that doesn't have a connection to Ottawa (often a charter airline).

I never knew how bad it was for YOW until I actually worked in the industry. It borders on insulting. If people wonder what the real numbers are for Ottawa, they just have to look at YEG, which serves identical population numbers and is a non-hub airport. Every transborder or international flight to and from YOW is literally painstakingly 're'-stolen from YUL.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by ac888yow

I don't see how the Authority could count that type of bleed. If you get in your car and drive somewhere else to catch a flight, how does YOW figure that out?

Airlines, on the other hand, could theoretically mine their own data for credit card postal codes to get a sense of this number, but this type of data analytics is not the typical, traditional way of tracking pax movements. This also assumes they have the credit card data to analyze; what about when someone buys via an agent?

The notion of bleed is a very serious one for YOW but a complicated one to measure.

Airlines are almost certainly doing analytics work to figure out the bleed numbers. In this day and age of mass data mining and analytics, I'd be shocked if they weren't.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by bikegypsy

I never knew how bad it was for YOW until I actually worked in the industry. It borders on insulting. If people wonder what the real numbers are for Ottawa, they just have to look at YEG, which serves identical population numbers and is a non-hub airport. Every transborder or international flight to and from YOW is literally painstakingly 're'-stolen from YUL.

Edmonton has few other transportation options for trips farther than Calgary. Ottawa has Via moving hundreds (maybe thousands) of passengers a day and about 3x the population of Alberta within a few hours drive (and tens of millions within a day's drive).

[sgera]

I believe Ottawa is the third busiest train station in the country + leakage from folks jumping in cars to nearby airports like Montreal

The airport should be competing more aggressively to prevent this leakage ... if you look at Edmonton which is closing in on 8m passengers vs 5m for Ottawa ... similar size metro population and Edmonton also sits close to Calgary as a hub (15m passengers) ... if you compare the delta of 3m passengers and factor in that we lose 1.5m passengers to via ... it suggests there is another 1.5m passengers being lost to people driving to other cities?

The best solution in my opinion is a high speed rail link to Montreal connecting our airports ... that would give us international connections with frequency within 1 hr train connection which would feel local. Arguably, Mirabel was to serve both cities and hence they made it far out of Montreal and on the hwy 50 corridor but we all know how that ended ...

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by sgera

The airport should be competing more aggressively to prevent this leakage ... if you look at Edmonton which is closing in on 8m passengers vs 5m for Ottawa ... similar size metro population and Edmonton also sits close to Calgary as a hub (15m passengers) ... if you compare the delta of 3m passengers and factor in that we lose 1.5m passengers to via ... it suggests there is another 1.5m passengers being lost to people driving to other cities?

I'm not sure it is "lost" - Ottawa has several large cities in driving distance, Edmonton does not.

[bikegypsy]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Edmonton has few other transportation options for trips farther than Calgary. Ottawa has Via moving hundreds (maybe thousands) of passengers a day and about 3x the population of Alberta within a few hours drive (and tens of millions within a day's drive).

Ya you're right... It was just a stupid rant on my part. Ottawa does have more travel options and it is situated near the highest populated area in NA. I guess my frustration from my travel industry days will take a while to dissipate completely. It is just business, after all.

[YOWflier]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Airlines are almost certainly doing analytics work to figure out the bleed numbers. In this day and age of mass data mining and analytics, I'd be shocked if they weren't.

Airlines are and have been for ages, but the data they consume and analyze isn't typically passenger postal code data and the like. There are industry standard sources of passenger movement and route data. I'd be shocked if AC/WS are doing an added analysis of other data.

Besides, we're talking about the notion of bleed from the perspective of an airport (authority). I'd be doubly shocked if the YOW authority pays Sabre for data and then hires some analytics company to report on it.

Originally Posted by Sgera

The best solution in my opinion is a high speed rail link to Montreal connecting our airports ... that would give us international connections with frequency within 1 hr train connection which would feel local.

Yeah, no.

How about we all do everything we can to discourage the harmful practice of flying remotely* and supporting competing jurisdictions in the process, opting instead to support our local airport and economy, enabling steady organic growth with air service that follows suit.

* By boarding a plane elsewhere as your point of origin you're telling the airlines that you don't give a shit what happens at "home". Actually, you're fooling the airline into thinking that home is somewhere else, thus making it much harder to gauge demand from your real home. Spread the word. Giving up sucks.

Note: "you" is the collective of people who engage in this practice, not you specifically, unless you are part of "you".

[H>T&T>P]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I'm not sure it is "lost" - Ottawa has several large cities in driving distance, Edmonton does not.

Exactly! Ottawa to NYC is roughly the same distance as it is from Edmonton to Saskatoon. Nothing against Saskatoon but not exactly an apple to apples comparison. I use Saskatoon as an example because other than Calgary nothing else is closer.

[qprcanada]

I am guilty of "flying remotely" from YUL but it is a chicken/egg type situation.

If the same non stop flight left from Ottawa at a comparable price I would definitely flow from YOW.

Connecting through YUL or YYZ from YOW is painful if you have an early morning flight, a same day connection may not even be possible if you need to clear customs for a US flight so we drive down the night before. I have done this numerous times for YUL not for YYZ.

That being said I hope YOW markets itself to more low cost carriers both domestically and internationally. I have now made a point of tweeting both the airline and YOW airport authority saying I wish they would fly from YOW so I didn't have to go to YUL.

Interjet is a low cost Mexican airline that I would love to fly from YOW.

Originally Posted by ac888yow

Airlines are and have been for ages, but the data they consume and analyze isn't typically passenger postal code data and the like. There are industry standard sources of passenger movement and route data. I'd be shocked if AC/WS are doing an added analysis of other data.

Besides, we're talking about the notion of bleed from the perspective of an airport (authority). I'd be doubly shocked if the YOW authority pays Sabre for data and then hires some analytics company to report on it.

Yeah, no.

How about we all do everything we can to discourage the harmful practice of flying remotely* and supporting competing jurisdictions in the process, opting instead to support our local airport and economy, enabling steady organic growth with air service that follows suit.

* By boarding a plane elsewhere as your point of origin you're telling the airlines that you don't give a shit what happens at "home". Actually, you're fooling the airline into thinking that home is somewhere else, thus making it much harder to gauge demand from your real home. Spread the word. Giving up sucks.

Note: "you" is the collective of people who engage in this practice, not you specifically, unless you are part of "you".

[Pavlov]

Who needs to fly anywhere when you are only a 90 minute train ride to the teeming metropolis of Kingston?

[Dominion301]

Originally Posted by Reesonov

Who needs to fly anywhere when you are only a 90 minute train ride to the teeming metropolis of Kingston?

Funny how back in the day CP used to run a daily YUL-YOW-YGK-YYZ ATR 42 flight.

Thunderstorms are currently over YYZ and one just passed through YUL too, so we might get a few YYZ diversions this afternoon.

So far, I only see a YYZ-YUL A320 and a YTZ-YUL DH4 Rapidair that's diverted due to the YUL storm.

[RomanR27]

Some diversions from both YUL and YYZ. Will update if any more interesting ones trickle in:

- Air France B77W from YUL
- AC Star Alliance livery A330 from YYZ

[YOWflier]

If you look at Flightradar24 and filter on YYZ arrivals, you'll see a parking lot of aircraft in holding patterns northwest of Kingston. A few diversions already, but maybe more if fuel starts to run dry while waiting for an opening at YYZ.

Edit: flow back into YYZ seems to be open again.
Edit2: LH470, a B744, is descending with a heading towards YOW. Likely diverting.

[Paul29]

Originally Posted by ac888yow

If you look at Flightradar24 and filter on YYZ arrivals, you'll see a parking lot of aircraft in holding patterns northwest of Kingston. A few diversions already, but maybe more if fuel starts to run dry while waiting for an opening at YYZ.

Edit: flow back into YYZ seems to be open again.
Edit2: LH470, a B744, is descending with a heading towards YOW. Likely diverting.

I had flightaware open and saw them. A few were threading the needle through the break in the storms around Port Perry or Peterborough.

I saw the Lufthansa 747 and it was doing quite the dance NW of Kingston before diverting.

[bcard519]

Any idea when they are heading out to YYZ?