Gas Prices

[Firebrand]

Originally Posted by dandor31

To be clear is actually $0.185/L in tax (was $0.170/L). Because its a flat tax, one should expect it to increase at the very least for inflation. Also, in the release, it's only estimated to impact drivers about $24/yr. That's peanuts!

Transit passengers are paying even more of an increase! At $0.10 increase to fares (effective this July 1, and then annually thereafter), that $48/yr (twice a day, 20 times a month). That's twice the increase over drivers, for a population with (generally) much less means to pay.

It does make a difference if it’s a gas-guzzling vehicle. Yes, I should get a hybrid or an electric car because they have higher fuel economy (which I would normally prefer), but most suburbanites are really stubborn and they don’t want to sell their Rams, F-150s or anything that is bigger than a Honda Civic. That’s gonna affect the voters who own these vehicles.

Originally Posted by dandor31

Nonetheless, all of this seems well worth it for the $7B investment in transit that is sorely need in Metro Vancouver.

I’ve heard that phrase so many times that I no longer buy it. There are some parts of Langley that are severely underserved or routes that unnecessary overlap (I’m looking at you, 509). And Langley gets penalized with LRT while the rest of the region pleasure for having fast, frequent, grade-separated rail? (I’m aware that the Surrey-Langley branch is still in the making, but the City of Surrey talks about it like it’s LRT after the Broadway and SNG projects are done.)

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by Firebrand

I’ve heard that phrase so many times that I no longer buy it. There are some parts of Langley that are severely underserved or routes that unnecessary overlap (I’m looking at you, 509). And Langley gets penalized with LRT while the rest of the region pleasure for having fast, frequent, grade-separated rail? (I’m aware that the Surrey-Langley branch is still in the making, but the City of Surrey talks about it like it’s LRT after the Broadway and SNG projects are done.)

You DO realize that Langley is 50 km away from Vancouver, right?

To put that in perspective,
50km north from downtown Toronto is Newmarket.
50km east is almost Oshawa.
50km West is past Brampton.

Toronto's a MUCH bigger city than Vancouver, but those places are serves by less frequent GO trains. It's too bad we don't have something as extensive as Toronto does, but LRT to Langley isn't a terrible thing.

[Trainguy]

1.5 cents / L increase...

The increase from the current 17 cents per litre has already been approved by Victoria to help cover transit upgrades as part of the region’s 10-year improvement plan.

The mayors reluctantly approved Phase 2 of the transit plan, and have decided to explore their options for coming up with the $30 million annual gap. Some of them, like Langley Township Mayor Jack Froese, says the NDP government is backing out of a $30 million commitment to Phase 2 while others are angry the province only told local mayors it had chosen this increase as a funding option this week.

The gas tax wouldn’t be implemented until 2019.


Here we go again... tax the people to death.

[Firebrand]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

You DO realize that Langley is 50 km away from Vancouver, right?

To put that in perspective,
50km north from downtown Toronto is Newmarket.
50km east is almost Oshawa.
50km West is past Brampton.

Toronto's a MUCH bigger city than Vancouver, but those places are serves by less frequent GO trains. It's too bad we don't have something as extensive as Toronto does, but LRT to Langley isn't a terrible thing.

It’s actually 47 km from Downtown Langley to Downtown Vancouver and it takes 43 minutes to drive in quiet traffic. That’s not as far as say, from Newport Beach to Los Angeles, which is 45 miles from the downtown core (that’s ~70 kilometers), which takes 46 minutes to drive. Langley to Downtown Van is nearly 5/7 that distance but it’s only 0.06% quicker. Fort Worth to Dallas is nearly the same distance as Langley to Vancouver yet it’s 9 minutes faster. You can’t single out distance when you have to take infrastructure to account. Dallas’ and LA’s road networks are very efficient (in terms of infrastructure); it’s only the sheer amount of vehicles on the roads that cause all the gridlock, LA in particular. Vancouver’s “highways” do not have free-flow intersections, more than four lanes, low speed limits, shoulder lanes or overpasses. The closest highway it is to an LA freeway is the Trans-Canada Highway, but even then it’s not consistent (it merges from eight lanes to four past 216th street).

It will be a real pain in the ass if one of the two lines breaks down and you have to take a bus bridge. (In Edmonton they call them “LRT Replacements”. Who wonder. ) This is why seamlessness makes sense in certain situations like the extension to Langley Centre.

[Firebrand]

Originally Posted by Trainguy

1.5 cents / L increase...

The increase from the current 17 cents per litre has already been approved by Victoria to help cover transit upgrades as part of the region’s 10-year improvement plan.

The mayors reluctantly approved Phase 2 of the transit plan, and have decided to explore their options for coming up with the $30 million annual gap. Some of them, like Langley Township Mayor Jack Froese, says the NDP government is backing out of a $30 million commitment to Phase 2 while others are angry the province only told local mayors it had chosen this increase as a funding option this week.

The gas tax wouldn’t be implemented until 2019.


Here we go again... tax the people to death.

There was also the Port Moody Mayor who I believe he said that the sudden tax increase isn’t the way to go. It’s really tough when you have Corrigan on your heels. He’s trying to do something to please the two large municipalities.

[CanSpice]

Originally Posted by Firebrand

Welp, now I have to deal with the 18.5% gas tax (particularly for the LRT they’re ramming through).

Gas prices went up 10 cents per litre over the past week to pad gas companies' wallets, and you're getting the pitchforks out over a 1.5 cent increase that'll go towards transportation improvments for the region that will actually help you out? Maybe think about switching your anger towards the right target.

[CanSpice]

Originally Posted by Firebrand

It does make a difference if it’s a gas-guzzling vehicle. Yes, I should get a hybrid or an electric car because they have higher fuel economy (which I would normally prefer), but most suburbanites are really stubborn and they don’t want to sell their Rams, F-150s or anything that is bigger than a Honda Civic. That’s gonna affect the voters who own these vehicles.

Okay, let's do the math! The Dodge Ram with the worst fuel economy is the 2018 Ram 1500 4WD at a combined 14mpg. One US gallon is 3.78541 L, so that's 3.698 miles per liter, or 5.95 kilometers per liter of gas. At an extra 1.5 cents per liter, that means that driving a kilometer will cost an extra quarter of a penny.

Maybe drive a little less?

[Cypherus]

Originally Posted by CanSpice

Gas prices went up 10 cents per litre over the past week to pad gas companies' wallets, and you're getting the pitchforks out over a 1.5 cent increase that'll go towards transportation improvments for the region that will actually help you out? Maybe think about switching your anger towards the right target.

That wasn't his point. The gas taxes are getting out of hand as seen in this breakdown of provincial taxes on clear gasoline (i.e. regular unleaded fuel)


Source: https://www2.gov.bc.ca/assets/gov/taxes/sales-taxes/publications/mft-ct-005-tax-rates-fuels.pdf

So 33 cents on every dollar expended to purchase a litre of fuel in metro Vancouver can be attributable alone to gas taxes. This table doesn't even reflect the additional 1.5 cent increase, so let's round it up to 35 cents per litre. Great! Oh, we also forgot to add the GST at 5% of the total purchase. GST applies on top of the other taxes resulting in multiple layers of taxation on taxes. Tax party! So yeah, a $1.61 litre price per fuel has at least 55 cents in taxes and people have good reason to be tired of it...

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by Cypherus

So 33 cents on every dollar expended to purchase a litre of fuel in metro Vancouver can be attributable alone to gas taxes. This table doesn't even reflect the additional 1.5 cent increase, so let's round it up to 35 cents per litre. Great! Oh, we also forgot to add the GST at 5% of the total purchase. GST applies on top of the other taxes resulting in multiple layers of taxation on taxes. Tax party! So yeah, a $1.61 litre price per fuel has at least 55 cents in taxes and people have good reason to be tired of it...

I thought you were listing the tax per litre? So that's now 35c per litre. If gas is $1.61 per litre, with 5% GST added, then the GST represents 7.6 cents. Add that to 35 cents and you get 42.6 cents total tax. Tax would be 26% of the total $1.61. Or is my math wrong?

[Cypherus]

Originally Posted by Changing City

I thought you were listing the tax per litre? So that's now 35c per litre. If gas is $1.61 per litre, with 5% GST added, then the GST represents 7.6 cents. Add that to 35 cents and you get 42.6 cents total tax. Tax would be 26% of the total $1.61. Or is my math wrong?

No your math is correct! 35 cents per litre not 35 cents per dollar (which I did the math for). So it's actually 42.60 cents in taxes on a price of litre being $1.61, or 26% of the total price as you say.

[NewfBC]

Originally Posted by Cypherus

No your math is correct! 35 cents per litre not 35 cents per dollar (which I did the math for). So it's actually 42.60 cents in taxes on a price of litre being $1.61, or 26% of the total price as you say.

26% of the total amount yes.. but if you remove the tax amount, you have a base price of $1.18/l before tax.. calculating $0.4260 tax on that is a much higher percentage.

Ron.

[Cypherus]

Originally Posted by NewfBC

26% of the total amount yes.. but if you remove the tax amount, you have a base price of $1.18/l before tax.. calculating $0.4260 tax on that is a much higher percentage.

Ron.

Coincidentally $1.18 per liture (before taxes) is still more than the price per litre in Washington State - at $1.02 US per litre (with the Canadian exchange rate included it is $1.37 CAN per litre - using 1.33 Can to buy 1 US dollar based on today's exchange rate).

https://www.gasbuddy.com/GasPriceMap?z=12&lng=-122.62694137848251&lat=48.93822674344048

The difference in price is largely due to the taxes and a smaller part due to importation costs. So the point is: next time people think fuel companies are gouging us - it is not true when compared to gas prices south of the border - you have a 10-15 cent difference before tax. It is the gas taxes from our very own government that are driving up fuel prices.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by Cypherus

The difference in price is largely due to the taxes and a smaller part due to importation costs. So the point is: next time people think fuel companies are gouging us - it is not true when compared to gas prices south of the border - you have a 10-15 cent difference before tax. It is the gas taxes from our very own government that are driving up fuel prices.

I'm not sure I'm following your logic here. Surely the increase in the cost of gas in Vancouver is almost all from either oil prices going up, or fuel companies taking greater profits, or a combination of the two?

Gas cost about $1.40 a litre in January. Now, six months later, it's around $1.60. The only tax increase in that six months was when the carbon tax added 1.2 cents per litre in April. The Translink tax hasn't increased yet - that additional 1.5 cents per litre will be added next spring. The extra 10 cents a litre added to the cost of gas in the past couple of weeks has nothing to do with higher taxes - they didn't go up in the past few weeks.

Obviously gas in Vancouver costs more than south of the border. The reason is partly because they add about 20c a litre to the price of fuel in taxes. We add something closer to 50 cents because we use taxing gas to partly pay for transit improvements, and towards funding BC Transit, and we have a Provincial carbon tax, and the Federal Government have a fuel tax and then add 5% GST on top of that. The majority of those taxes have barely changed in the past year or two, and then increased only very slightly.

But my understanding is that we also have higher gas prices here because most of our supply comes from Washington State, and so is affected by limitations in supply when their refineries are offline for maintenance. The fluctuating exchange rate also affects our gas price, as it's bought wholesale in US dollars.

Gas is still (given inflation over those four years) still cheaper than four years ago when it was around $1.53 a litre, but it's way more expensive than early 2016 when it was close to $1.00. The tax take changed a very small amount in those two and a half years - the significant increase was almost all due to the other factors that effect the price of gas.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Changing City

But my understanding is that we also have higher gas prices here because most of our supply comes from Washington State, and so is affected by limitations in supply when their refineries are offline for maintenance. The fluctuating exchange rate also affects our gas price, as it's bought wholesale in US dollars.

Gas is still (given inflation over those four years) still cheaper than four years ago when it was around $1.53 a litre, but it's way more expensive than early 2016 when it was close to $1.00. The tax take changed a very small amount in those two and a half years - the significant increase was almost all due to the other factors that effect the price of gas.

Yes we (Metro Vancouver and across the US border) all share the same supply. The prices, once you remove taxes and correct for exchange, have always moved roughly in line. Maybe we have a few cents premium, but it's nothing more than noise in the grand scheme of gas price fluctuations.

Taxes are a bit of a distraction. One that big oil is all too happy to watch consumers rage over.

[jawagord]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Yes we (Metro Vancouver and across the US border) all share the same supply. The prices, once you remove taxes and correct for exchange, have always moved roughly in line. Maybe we have a few cents premium, but it's nothing more than noise in the grand scheme of gas price fluctuations.

Taxes are a bit of a distraction. One that big oil is all too happy to watch consumers rage over.

Yes you do share the same supply source, it's called Alberta and that supply (crude, gasoline, diesel) is transported to Vancouver and Washington State by the TransMountain pipeline. Has the penny dropped?

https://www.transmountain.com/product-destination

Almost 90 per cent of the fuel for Vancouver and the southern coast comes out of that pipeline, either as gasoline or crude to be refined.

Kinder Morgan is the only Canadian pipeline that transports “batches” of petroleum products — crude one day, gasoline the next, maybe bitumen after that. This unique variety, and the fact that it’s the only coastal pipeline, makes B.C. heavily dependent on Alberta’s complex industry.

https://business.financialpost.com/commo...-used-that-tactic-before-against-ontario

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by jawagord

Yes you do share the same supply source, it's called Alberta and that supply (crude, gasoline, diesel) is transported to Vancouver and Washington State by the TransMountain pipeline. Has the penny dropped?

If you're implying that a twinning of the KM pipeline will result in lower gas prices, I have some bad news for you.

[jawagord]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

If you're implying that a twinning of the KM pipeline will result in lower gas prices, I have some bad news for you.

I'm implying a twinned pipeline will bring larger volumes of gasoline from Edmonton refineries to Vancouver, hence less imported fuel from WS refineries and even with higher tariffs on the pipeline the net will be lower cost at the pump. Ditto for WS refineries, more oil from Alberta via pipeline/tanker is lower cost than importing oil by train from North Dakota, so again lower cost into the refinery plus more competition out of the refineries, lower cost at the pump, the free market at work. But you are free to believe otherwise, the status quo is working so well for lower mainlanders?

[WarrenC12]

Two problems with your implication:

1. The new pipeline is for bitumen and other heavy products for direct export overseas.

2. Lower Mainland and NW WA state refineries are already operating at full capacity. Nobody has a business case to build more in either area.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Two problems with your implication:

1. The new pipeline is for bitumen and other heavy products for direct export overseas.

2. Lower Mainland and NW WA state refineries are already operating at full capacity. Nobody has a business case to build more in either area.

It can transport any petroleum product.

[jawagord]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Two problems with your implication:

1. The new pipeline is for bitumen and other heavy products for direct export overseas.

2. Lower Mainland and NW WA state refineries are already operating at full capacity. Nobody has a business case to build more in either area.

You are forgetting about the existing pipeline, it will be dedicated to refined products, gasoline and diesel and some light oils, so the capacity to transport gasoline to Burnaby will be 'huge" coming from the refineries with the lowest cost crude in North America. FYI the WS and California refiners will "add on" capacity as needed, they have been doing so for decades, it just won't be needed by Vancouver if the TMP is twinned.