Winnipeg Construction IX

[GarryEllice]

Originally Posted by scryer

We can't be living in our heads thinking that downtown is going to be this resurrected utopia without dealing with the major traffic problems happening in the suburbs.

That makes no sense. Why does slow traffic on Kenaston prevent the downtown from continuing to redevelop? If anything it helps to increase the appeal of central areas by making life in the outer suburbs slightly less attractive.

[Hecate]

I can’t wait for portage and main to be open and I’m sick of hearing all the lame excuses as to why it should remain closed. It’s a broken record over and over and over. It’s amazing how some people have such short sighted vision. Bringing down the barriers is one of the most important things this city can do to help create an enjoyable and cohesive walking experience in the downtown neighbourhood. It will bring foot traffic back to blocks that have more or less been void of pedestrian activity for the past 50 years. It will allow street level retail and commercial activity to exist and grow, while also creating a friendlier and more welcoming environment for those patronizing our downtown hotels. It’s a win win win win win. Doesn’t matter what way you look at it. Sad that so many of our citizens can’t see that.

[joshlemer]

Originally Posted by Hecate

I can’t wait for portage and main to be open and I’m sick of hearing all the lame excuses as to why it should remain closed. It’s a broken record over and over and over. It’s amazing how some people have such short sighted vision. Bringing down the barriers is one of the most important things this city can do to help create an enjoyable and cohesive walking experience in the downtown neighbourhood. It will bring foot traffic back to blocks that have more or less been void of pedestrian activity for the past 50 years. It will allow street level retail and commercial activity to exist and grow, while also creating a friendlier and more welcoming environment for those patronizing our downtown hotels. It’s a win win win win win. Doesn’t matter what way you look at it. Sad that so many of our citizens can’t see that.

I especially find it hilarious when people ask what's wrong with having the intersection closed when the concourse provides access for pedestrians. The underground crossing is a disaster! It takes like 5 minutes to cross, and it's not in any way obvious that it even exists, let alone that you're supposed to go through it to cross the intersection. In my opinion the intersection is an incredible embarrassment and a symbol of everything wrong with later 20th century urban planning. It's the most historic intersection in the city and it has become so sterile and anti-human. It really is depressing to look back at how lively the area was 100 years ago.

[michelleb]

Originally Posted by scryer

In all honesty, Route 90 and Bishop Grandin needs to be redesigned to be proper free-flowing freeways within the city, of which would be a nightmare to design and construct.

Urban freeways are a failed experiment that are rightfully recognized today as an urban blight, which is why many cities around the world are removing them as they approach end of life. Building freeways now, like the long-planned inner ring road, would be a colossal mistake.

[OTA in Winnipeg]

Originally Posted by michelleb

Urban freeways are a failed experiment that are rightfully recognized today as an urban blight, which is why many cities around the world are removing them as they approach end of life. Building freeways now, like the long-planned inner ring road, would be a colossal mistake.

Please explain why you think this and provide examples of this phenomenon.

[ywgwalk]

Originally Posted by OTA in Winnipeg

Please explain why you think this and provide examples of this phenomenon.

Vancouver for instance is busy removing the closest thing they had to a freeway in the city.

A very quick google search brings up six examples:

https://gizmodo.com/6-freeway-removals-that-changed-their-cities-forever-1548314937

[Wpg_Guy]

Originally Posted by OTA in Winnipeg

Please explain why you think this and provide examples of this phenomenon.

• Video Link

[OTA in Winnipeg]

Originally Posted by ywgwalk

Vancouver for instance is busy removing the closest thing they had to a freeway in the city.

A very quick google search brings up six examples:

https://gizmodo.com/6-freeway-removals-that-changed-their-cities-forever-1548314937

Those are all primarily massive multi lane highways running through downtown's and that's not what I'm talking about at all in the other thread. Two of those examples also just placed the highway underground and two or three others were to bring back access to natural waterways which is of course a desirable thing.

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by Hecate

It will bring foot traffic back to blocks that have more or less been void of pedestrian activity for the past 50 years. It will allow street level retail and commercial activity to exist and grow

You are clearly either living about 60 years in the past, are unaware of the current situation downtown or are delusional.

Go anywhere outside the Portage and Main bubble and count the actual pedestrians you see and I don't mean people standing around a bus stop. There are minimal. You also cannot blame the lack of pedestrians around Portage and Hargrave on the fact the Portage and Main has barriers up.

The thought that retail will ever come back to downtown is also completely ignoring current trends in that whole segment. It is much easier and usually cheaper to hit up the Amazon or similar website and have your purchase show up at your door in a day or two than it is to trek out to a store and hope they have what you want in stock. The last two markets that are still somewhat strong in physical retail are clothing and perishable goods, especially groceries. Both those segments are working hard to eliminate the pain points that are barriers to online retail. The trend also reaches far beyond downtown Winnipeg too. Clearly you have a computer with Internet access so hit up Google and read up on dying/dead malls.

It’s a broken record over and over and over.

Sad that so many of our citizens can’t see that.

Opening Portage and Main will do more harm than good to downtown Winnipeg.

[dmacc]

Originally Posted by CoryB

You are clearly either living about 60 years in the past, are unaware of the current situation downtown or are delusional.

Go anywhere outside the Portage and Main bubble and count the actual pedestrians you see and I don't mean people standing around a bus stop. There are minimal. You also cannot blame the lack of pedestrians around Portage and Hargrave on the fact the Portage and Main has barriers up.

The thought that retail will ever come back to downtown is also completely ignoring current trends in that whole segment. It is much easier and usually cheaper to hit up the Amazon or similar website and have your purchase show up at your door in a day or two than it is to trek out to a store and hope they have what you want in stock. The last two markets that are still somewhat strong in physical retail are clothing and perishable goods, especially groceries. Both those segments are working hard to eliminate the pain points that are barriers to online retail. The trend also reaches far beyond downtown Winnipeg too. Clearly you have a computer with Internet access so hit up Google and read up on dying/dead malls.

It’s a broken record over and over and over.

Sad that so many of our citizens can’t see that.

Opening Portage and Main will do more harm than good to downtown Winnipeg.

I would like to have a poll done of equal parts pedestrians from the area and drivers who use the intersection regularly to see the true desire for the intersection. I personally don't use the intersection and don't work around there anymore but I never had issue with using WS when I did.

[Ando]

Originally Posted by dmacc

I would like to have a poll done of equal parts pedestrians from the area and drivers who use the intersection regularly to see the true desire for the intersection. I personally don't use the intersection and don't work around there anymore but I never had issue with using WS when I did.

So how are going to go about getting that poll done? Are you serious about the underground? It's extremely un-user friendly. But that's a red herring anyway. Under the current plan, the underground is still going to be there. The opening of P&M is going to open up the streetscape. Really, the arguments of those opposed is nothing more than scare-mongering. I find it interesting that most of those opposed on here tend to be the more conservative, anti-change crowd.

[dmacc]

Originally Posted by Ando

So how are going to go about getting that poll done? Are you serious about the underground? It's extremely un-user friendly. But that's a red herring anyway. Under the current plan, the underground is still going to be there. The opening of P&M is going to open up the streetscape. Really, the arguments of those opposed is nothing more than scare-mongering. I find it interesting that most of those opposed on here tend to be the more conservative, anti-change crowd.

haha, though I may be more conservative in my political views I think I am far from anti-change. I just happen to disagree on this particular project. That is why i felt the poll would be of more value then my opinion. Like I said, I don't travel through there with any regularity anymore either on foot or with a vehicle and my opinion on the matter is much less valuable in this situation.

I would like to know what the Cab driver, semi truck driver, purolator driver and business who operates in and through the downtown think versus the average office worker within a couple blocks of the area think. They are the ones with opinions that matter and provide real incite to the value of opening the intersection.

Hell, at the end of the day I may be wrong and this might be hugely successful. Accusing me of being some crazy right wing lunatic who's just trying to spread fear is in every opinion I have is ridiculous. My opinion is no less valid because it opposes yours. The only way it becomes invalid is if I'm wrong a decade after the intersection opens and it does what you say it will by opening all of downtown and livening up that intersection in a positive way. Until then you're just a belittling leftist, lol, jk but you see how summing you up in one word to disqualify your opinion is rude and unfair?

[scryer]

Originally Posted by GarryEllice

That makes no sense. Why does slow traffic on Kenaston prevent the downtown from continuing to redevelop? If anything it helps to increase the appeal of central areas by making life in the outer suburbs slightly less attractive.

Are you thick?

MOST VOTERS ARE DRIVERS. THEY WILL VOTE FOR WHAT BENEFITS THEM.

That's why significant downtown developments are consistently stalled. Next.

Urban freeways are a failed experiment that are rightfully recognized today as an urban blight, which is why many cities around the world are removing them as they approach end of life. Building freeways now, like the long-planned inner ring road, would be a colossal mistake.

You are fighting for a concept that you are taking out of context.

Urban freeways have destroyed certain American cities. I am not fighting that. However Route 90 and Bishop Grandin aren't running through jaw-dropping vibrant neighbourhoods, they are running through suburbs and fields. Oh, and it's running through some 90's looking set of box-store malls. We wouldn't be losing a city's vibrancy (if you can even call it that, here) by improving traffic conditions to make people's lives easier. Since you're well versed in urban design, have you ever come across a city that doesn't try to address large amounts of traffic without the use of some "feeder-street" for vehicles?

I feel like my posts are being half-read and not properly understood, so I'm going to re-quote myself for clarity:

....most people live in the suburbs in this city. You're committing political suicide by promising to redirect all funds into downtown. People will just straight-up not vote you in.

And because it calls for it, I will expand on this a little too: On this forum there is no doubt that we all want to see the best for our cities. And I do too. But when it comes to Winnipeg, no politician can promise more infrastructure for downtown without appealing to the mass of their voters (read: drivers). Ideally the mayor would balance the needs of the suburbs with the needs of downtown but we haven't seen this balance in the last 50 years or so...

Winnipeg is also a bit of an anomaly in that in the last 50 years or so, its major job centres have spread across the city. You don't have the need to send the entire city downtown to work; people are literally going everywhere.

[dmacc]

Originally Posted by scryer

Are you thick?

MOST VOTERS ARE DRIVERS. THEY WILL VOTE FOR WHAT BENEFITS THEM.

That's why significant downtown developments are consistently stalled. Next.




You are fighting for a concept that you are taking out of context.

Urban freeways have destroyed certain American cities. I am not fighting that. However Route 90 and Bishop Grandin aren't running through jaw-dropping vibrant neighbourhoods, they are running through suburbs and fields. Oh, and it's running through some 90's looking set of box-store malls. We wouldn't be losing a city's vibrancy (if you can even call it that, here) by improving traffic conditions to make people's lives easier.


I feel like my posts are being half-read and not properly understood, so I'm going to re-quote myself for clarity:



And because it calls for it, I will expand on this a little too: On this forum there is no doubt that we all want to see the best for our cities. And I do too. But when it comes to Winnipeg, no politician can promise more infrastructure for downtown without appealing to the mass of their voters (read: drivers).

The importance of Route 90 isn't just for drivers going to work and home but for the transportation of goods and services. Those goods and services are what drive the need for a better route 90... though leaving route 90 the way it is is better then the one being suggested.

[ediger]

Originally Posted by CoryB

You are clearly either living about 60 years in the past, are unaware of the current situation downtown or are delusional.

Go anywhere outside the Portage and Main bubble and count the actual pedestrians you see and I don't mean people standing around a bus stop. There are minimal. You also cannot blame the lack of pedestrians around Portage and Hargrave on the fact the Portage and Main has barriers up.

The thought that retail will ever come back to downtown is also completely ignoring current trends in that whole segment. It is much easier and usually cheaper to hit up the Amazon or similar website and have your purchase show up at your door in a day or two than it is to trek out to a store and hope they have what you want in stock. The last two markets that are still somewhat strong in physical retail are clothing and perishable goods, especially groceries. Both those segments are working hard to eliminate the pain points that are barriers to online retail. The trend also reaches far beyond downtown Winnipeg too. Clearly you have a computer with Internet access so hit up Google and read up on dying/dead malls.

It’s a broken record over and over and over.

Sad that so many of our citizens can’t see that.

Opening Portage and Main will do more harm than good to downtown Winnipeg.

I both live and work downtown. There's tons of pedestrians out along Portage every single day. So immediately your point is discredited.

[wardlow]

Originally Posted by scryer

Winnipeg is also a bit of an anomaly in that in the last 50 years or so, its major job centres have spread across the city. You don't have the need to send the entire city downtown to work; people are literally going everywhere.

I would think Winnipeg is an anomaly in that it has seen so little employment leave downtown for suburban areas, relative to other Canadian cities. Do you mean manufacturing jobs or wholesaling jobs? Or retail jobs? I don't know of any significant 'spreading' that's happened, other than within downtown itself. Even if you look at newer office parks, Smart Park, or the odd big-ish office building on Portage Avenue west, I don't think the numbers are all that significant. Winnipeg's daytime population/employment centres were basically all set in place by 1950, and other than retail and manufacturing I don't think any has grown at the expense of the other.

Downtown is still the home to the Manitoba's most important institutions and biggest attractions, and is far and away the largest employment centre in the city. No matter what your vision for downtown is, few would dispute it is important.

[StNorberter]

Originally Posted by ediger

I both live and work downtown. There's tons of pedestrians out along Portage every single day. So immediately your point is discredited.

Exactly. There is no reason to keep it close except for "but muh pickup truck. If they close it, my commute THROUGH P & M will take an additional 15 sec "

"It will kill business under Wpg Square and the P & M circus"- Nope. Those business exist as purpose trips. 90% of their business is because people have to go there, not because they were just walking by.

"$11 Million is too much" - No concept of the total city budget at all.

Never mind that as an accessibility issue, that's reason enough and there shouldn't need to be any further discussion.

[windypeg]

Originally Posted by scryer

And again, most people live in the suburbs in this city. You're committing political suicide by promising to redirect all funds into downtown. People will just straight-up not vote you in.

I personally believe that a balance can be achieved but you need to cater to the voters (read: drivers) to a significant extent.

Redirect all funds into downtown? I don't think a mayor of Winnipeg has proposed anything remotely close to that in any of our lifetimes. This really embodies the silliness and selfishness that is all too typical in Winnipeg when it comes to downtown. Someone wants to promote a couple of modest downtown projects and this is totally misrepresented as downtown robbing the suburbs and getting everything, when in reality we throw hundreds of millions of dollars every year into suburban infrastructure. Downtown gets a few table scraps and people lose their minds over it.

If there's a lack of "balance" in civic spending I would say you've got it backwards, downtown has been neglected for decades while the suburbs have gotten a disproportionate amount of spending.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by wardlow

I would think Winnipeg is an anomaly in that it has seen so little employment leave downtown for suburban areas, relative to other Canadian cities. Do you mean manufacturing jobs or wholesaling jobs? Or retail jobs? I don't know of any significant 'spreading' that's happened, other than within downtown itself. Even if you look at newer office parks, Smart Park, or the odd big-ish office building on Portage Avenue west, I don't think the numbers are all that significant. Winnipeg's daytime population/employment centres were basically all set in place by 1950, and other than retail and manufacturing I don't think any has grown at the expense of the other.

Downtown is still the home to the Manitoba's most important institutions and biggest attractions, and is far and away the largest employment centre in the city. No matter what your vision for downtown is, few would dispute it is important.

So true. Given Winnipeg's fondness for suburban living, it is actually somewhat amazing that the only 10+ storey office tower outside of the downtown area remains the 1970s era 1661 Portage Avenue. I suppose there has been a lot of office space built on the strip mall model (as we're seeing on south Kenaston), but that tends to be more small local or operational offices. For instance, it's not like any big law or accounting firms have taken up residence in those types of places.

That said, this can't be taken for granted and it's easy to see that changing in the future. Just look at downtown retail... until Polo Park opened in 1959 downtown shopping was pretty well the only game in town. Then barely even 20 years later, by the time Kildonan Place opened in 1980 as the last of the big new suburban malls built in the boomer era, downtown retail was entering the terminal phase.

[trueviking]

Originally Posted by CoryB

Opening Portage and Main will do more harm than good to downtown Winnipeg.

name one 'harm' it will do to downtown Winnipeg.