Portage and Main re-opening 2016

[buzzg]

People also don't slow down or check for pedestrians and oncoming traffic at yields, but will without fail stop at a merge with a full merge lane, whether there's traffic coming or not.

I would be 100% in favour of stationing police at some of the merges on Bishop Grandin and issuing tickets for unsafe driving to everyone who stops in a merge.

Originally Posted by esquire

In some ways the crosswalks create a bit of a false sense of security.

Definitely – especially the ones with button-activated signals. All the more reason to have a culture (or laws) of stopping allowing pedestrians to cross at any uncontrolled crossing. On major roads, most intersections have traffic signals anyway, so not as much of an issue.

There's also something to be said for our signage here. We only use universally-recognized icons, and no text, on MOST of our signage in Manitoba. While this is great for people who speak EASL, it's been proven time and time again that people react more to written language. The pedestrian/warning signage here is very "soft" and can often go unnoticed or seen to late. At important interactions we should use both icons and text to make the point and best get driver attention.

You can see how Saskatchewan labels them: https://www.google.ca/maps/@50.445497,-1...EUsnT3jJAZxcGIuBh0UgQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

[esquire]

Originally Posted by buzzg

I would be 100% in favour of stationing police at some of the merges on Bishop Grandin and issuing tickets for unsafe driving to everyone who stops in a merge.

But stopping at a merge is a prudent action, especially in this city where there are so few slip lanes that actually give you room to merge properly. Not everyone remembers where they are so they'll stop before merging. That's cautious driving IMO, not something to be ticketed.

Definitely – especially the ones with button-activated signals. All the more reason to have a culture (or laws) of stopping allowing pedestrians to cross at any uncontrolled crossing. On major roads, most intersections have traffic signals anyway, so not as much of an issue.

It's the ones that are marked with paint and crosswalk signs but no signals that are apparently the most treacherous, if memory serves correctly. They're worse than just crossing at an unmarked corner because they create certain expectations for pedestrians. It's the user-activated red lights that are the safest... everyone stops for those.

[cheswick]

Originally Posted by esquire

But stopping at a merge is a prudent action, especially in this city where there are so few slip lanes that actually give you room to merge properly. Not everyone remembers where they are so they'll stop before merging. That's cautious driving IMO, not something to be ticketed.

.

He said stopping within the merge not before it. I agree you should be stopping before the merge and when you have space you enter the merge and merge. Not drive into the thing, stop and wait there with your blinker on. Don’t enter until you no you can merge.

[esquire]

^ If you near the end of a merge lane that's like 4 car lengths long and there's a steady flow of traffic where Winnipeg drivers won't let you in, your options are to a) deliberately collide with vehicles in order to ram your way into the lane, b) drive on the shoulder until you reach a break, or c) stop to wait for traffic to clear. Only one of those options is prudent IMO.

[DowntownBooster]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ If you near the end of a merge lane that's like 4 car lengths long and there's a steady flow of traffic where Winnipeg drivers won't let you in, your options are to a) deliberately collide with vehicles in order to ram your way into the lane, b) drive on the shoulder until you reach a break, or c) stop to wait for traffic to clear. Only one of those options is prudent IMO.

I agree. It's not always easy to merge here when you want to. It's hard enough just trying to change lanes as people will speed up in order to prevent others from getting in 'their' lane.

[esquire]

^ In fairness, even drivers with good intentions can still inadvertently thwart people from merging. Because every street in the city has traffic lights, you end up with long, unbroken waves of cars. You often have to wait for a red light to create a break in traffic.

[buzzg]

I'll agree that there are definitely a few inadequate merge lanes here, especially on WB Grant > Kenaston (don't know why it got changed from a yield) and the mess at Portage/Rt 90 with the fire hall in the middle. However the vast majority have more than enough room, areas like Bishop Grandin, some parts of Lag, perimeter, etc. Even some of the language here seems like people are confused between a yield and a merge.

I'd argue it is NOT more prudent to stop at a merge because that's the complete opposite of how they're supposed to be used – so most (informed) drivers will not be expecting the vehicle in front to stop, because it's wrong. If anything – the city should change the inadequate ones mentioned above to yields.

Also in terms of crosswalks I believe it's the button-activated flashing yellows that are the most dangerous as many pedestrians just hit the button and walk, with no care how close a vehicle already is to the crosswalk. At least the ones without a signal, peds don't have that false sense of secuirty and tend to wait longer to make sure the coast is clear.

I also believe an issue at non-signalled crosswalks here is that the city is cheap and doesn't paint them with the big parallel bars like at signalled ones – just single lines. Those bars make a big difference as signals to vehicles, they should be used at all crosswalks and yields here.

And it's clear the city knows it: There was an issue due to street design of vehicles turning right from NB Pembina (@Confusion) onto Corydon. No one ever paid attention or looked for pedestrians, who cross at the same time. So the city put the crosswalk-style bars there to make it more obvious, but only across the turning EB traffic. WB Corydon still just regular lines. Same thing with the Assiniboine/Main crossing.

[Jets4Life]

Originally Posted by bomberjet

I had co-workers in from Calgary recently. They tried to jaywalk immediately and were dumbfounded when nobody stopped for them. Mid block and they just stepped out onto the street. "In Calgary people have to stop" they said.

That is the first thing I noticed when I moved to Alberta (Edmonton). I was jaywalking across a street. When I stepped onto the street, there was a vehicle a lane away. I stopped and waited for it to pass. It stopped, and waited for me. I was confused.

[roccerfeller]

Originally Posted by Wolf13

This city is comical... If you drive 5-10 over the limit you grossly offend anyone, and changing lanes because one is ending is "aggressive"... not like those people refusing to let you in and run you into a parked car

exactly

don't even get me started on proper merging lanes

I mean even merging onto the perimeter in some areas is almost a direct yield into the 100km/h traffic

I feel because the population has grown a fair bit, relatively speaking, and the number of cars has increased, that people are more and more impatient than they were before. Plus all the traffic lights in the city must play some role in developing road rage syndromes

oh yeah, reopen portage and main. There, now I can justify my mini rants without veering too off topic lol

[Jets4Life]

I hope the opening of P & M does not increase the incidents of pedestrians hit by cars. It's a big problem in Toronto:


A surge in cyclists and pedestrians dying on Toronto streets is triggering demands that Mayor John Tory, city council and the Ontario government act now to stop the carnage.

“I am calling for a state of emergency, which means treating this crisis as a high priority and investing in immediate measures to create a safe environment for vulnerable road users,” Jennifer Keesmaat, Toronto’s former chief planner, now a University of Toronto lecturer, told the Star Wednesday.

“The SARS crisis took 44 lives in Canada. Ninety-three pedestrians or cyclists have died on the streets of Toronto since Vision Zero was implemented two years ago. The time for half-measures is over — and the half measures are not working, anyway.”


https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2018/06...grow-amid-deaths-on-toronto-streets.html

[esquire]

^ Presumably P&M would be a no right turn on red situation which would cut down the risk considerably.

[rkspec]

Originally Posted by Jets4Life

I hope the opening of P & M does not increase the incidents of pedestrians hit by cars. It's a big problem in Toronto:

wouldnt a better comparison be in getting some numbers from cities that have the same population as Winnipeg?

[bomberjet]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ Presumably P&M would be a no right turn on red situation which would cut down the risk considerably.

P&M is currently no turns on red I believe. At least the big right turn from SB Main to WB Portage.

Note the plan is to reduce that turn lane from 2 to 1.

*Let all hell break loose*

[Wolf13]

Originally Posted by esquire

But stopping at a merge is a prudent action, especially in this city where there are so few slip lanes that actually give you room to merge properly. Not everyone remembers where they are so they'll stop before merging. That's cautious driving IMO, not something to be ticketed..

That's not cautious driving, that's bad or incapacitated driving.

If they don't know how to merge, the shouldn't be driving.

Originally Posted by Jets4Life

I hope the opening of P & M does not increase the incidents of pedestrians hit by cars. It's a big problem in Toronto:


A surge in cyclists and pedestrians dying on Toronto streets is triggering demands that Mayor John Tory, city council and the Ontario government act now to stop the carnage.

“I am calling for a state of emergency, which means treating this crisis as a high priority and investing in immediate measures to create a safe environment for vulnerable road users,” Jennifer Keesmaat, Toronto’s former chief planner, now a University of Toronto lecturer, told the Star Wednesday.

“The SARS crisis took 44 lives in Canada. Ninety-three pedestrians or cyclists have died on the streets of Toronto since Vision Zero was implemented two years ago. The time for half-measures is over — and the half measures are not working, anyway.”


https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2018/06...grow-amid-deaths-on-toronto-streets.html

Perhaps cyclists should earn their license to share the road, much like automobile operators do. I'm for it. Then they can actually get ticketed.

I didn't read the article but the majority of dumb or selfish cyclists out there is huge.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Wolf13

That's not cautious driving, that's bad or incapacitated driving.

If they don't know how to merge, the shouldn't be driving.

It isn't unusual for a Winnipeg merge lane to be just a few car lengths long. Let's say there is a constant stream of bumper to bumper traffic going at 60 km/h or more. What exactly do you propose that drivers do when they reach the end of the merge area, just ram their way into the lane and smash into other cars?

[optimusREIM]

Originally Posted by esquire

It isn't unusual for a Winnipeg merge lane to be just a few car lengths long. Let's say there is a constant stream of bumper to bumper traffic going at 60 km/h or more. What exactly do you propose that drivers do when they reach the end of the merge area, just ram their way into the lane and smash into other cars?

Most merge lanes in Winnipeg are half assed slip lanes, which is totally inappropriate obviously. That being said, there are some actual merge lanes in really strange places where they aren't needed. It's really perplexing

[esquire]

Originally Posted by optimusREIM

Most merge lanes in Winnipeg are half assed slip lanes, which is totally inappropriate obviously. That being said, there are some actual merge lanes in really strange places where they aren't needed. It's really perplexing

That's my exact point. The only consistent thing with Winnipeg merge/slip lanes is the inconsistency. So I don't know why anyone is surprised that drivers will assume the worst and expect there to be no merge space if they aren't already familiar with a certain intersection... in Winnipeg, you'd be downright foolish to assume that an intersection or interchange you don't know offers plenty of room to merge safely because those are very much the exception.

[Jets4Life]

Originally Posted by rkspec

wouldnt a better comparison be in getting some numbers from cities that have the same population as Winnipeg?

It's Winnipeg. We do not exactly have the greatest reputation for driving.

[rkspec]

Originally Posted by Jets4Life

It's Winnipeg. We do not exactly have the greatest reputation for driving.

reputation vs stats...the average pedestrian death rate is 11 a year in all of Manitoba


Toronto has 93 deaths since they implemented that pledge 2 years ago.

maybe opening portage and main will boost up our stats!

[DowntownBooster]

Originally Posted by Jets4Life

I hope the opening of P & M does not increase the incidents of pedestrians hit by cars. It's a big problem in Toronto:


A surge in cyclists and pedestrians dying on Toronto streets is triggering demands that Mayor John Tory, city council and the Ontario government act now to stop the carnage.

“I am calling for a state of emergency, which means treating this crisis as a high priority and investing in immediate measures to create a safe environment for vulnerable road users,” Jennifer Keesmaat, Toronto’s former chief planner, now a University of Toronto lecturer, told the Star Wednesday.

“The SARS crisis took 44 lives in Canada. Ninety-three pedestrians or cyclists have died on the streets of Toronto since Vision Zero was implemented two years ago. The time for half-measures is over — and the half measures are not working, anyway.”

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2018/06...grow-amid-deaths-on-toronto-streets.html

Unlike SARS, vehicle/pedestrian collisions are preventable for the most part. Only a few are really accidents with the majority of collisions between them being caused by carelessness on either side. Both drivers and pedestrians need to pay attention to what they are doing. The stupidity out there is alarming and education on both sides is required if we are to make our roadways and crossings safer.