O-Train Line 1/3 [Stage 2 | West Extension | Tunney's to Baseline/Moodie] | U/C

[lrt's friend]

We already have the corridor in place to get LRT to Barrhaven Town Centre from Riverside South, and the Vimy Bridge was built for it.

Everything is pointing to the foolishness of cancelling the original plan given the escalating costs of serving Barrhaven on any route.

Running LRT south from Baseline is going to be especially expensive. This is why the planners and politicians have not been moving it forward. If we get the Trillium Line to Limebank, we are only a couple of kms from the Vimy Bridge and Barrhaven.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

We already have the corridor in place to get LRT to Barrhaven Town Centre from Riverside South, and the Vimy Bridge was built for it.

But the Vimy bridge was built for at grade LRT. The city has since changed its mind and is no longer interested in at grade LRT.

Running LRT south from Baseline is going to be especially expensive. This is why the planners and politicians have not been moving it forward. If we get the Trillium Line to Limebank, we are only a couple of kms from the Vimy Bridge and Barrhaven.

Only one block is going to be "especially expensive" and really no worse than many parts of stage 2 LRT West. The rest will be especially cheap as they already own most of the land and few crossings are needed (they are already planning on grade separating the crossing with the VIA Rail line).

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by roger1818

But the Vimy bridge was built for at grade LRT. The city has since changed its mind and is no longer interested in at grade LRT.



Only one block is going to be "especially expensive" and really no worse than many parts of stage 2 LRT West. The rest will be especially cheap as they already own most of the land and few crossings are needed (they are already planning on grade separating the crossing with the VIA Rail line).

There are two grade separations on Woodroffe and Fallowfield that will be very expensive. We will not be considering LRT to Barrhaven from Baseline until those two separations are funded. When?

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

There are two grade separations on Woodroffe and Fallowfield that will be very expensive. We will not be considering LRT to Barrhaven from Baseline until those two separations are funded. When?

The track would run along the western edge of Woodroffe, so there would be no need to ever cross it. I assume you are instead referring to the VIA Rail crossing just north of Fallowfield. As I said, there are already plans in the works to grade separate, so if we are going to do that anyway, that would be a good time to upgrade to LRT, rather than build a transitway bridge and then later convert it to rail. As for the LRT crossing Fallowfield, that is adjacent to where VIA Rail crosses the road, so when they grade separate that crossing, they could extend the bridge to also cross the LRT for not much additional cost.

As a result, both of these crossings are inconsequential. If anything those crossings are an opportunity to save money on an LRT extension.

Originally Posted by OtrainUser

Check one of my posts on the rural thread and you will find an estimate i gave for extending the confederation line south from baseline. My estimate is at least 2 billion dollars in current terms which will definitely get more expensive years from now.

It is better to reference or quote posts (especially if in other threads) rather than leave it up to the reader to find it for themselves. I will do it for you though:

Originally Posted by OtrainUser

This is just a guess on my part but extending Confederation line south from Baseline im guessing maybe 8km. So assuming 100 million per km that 800 million dollars, plus the planned 8 station adds another 100 million per station which is another 800 million dollars. Add in the Fallowfield and Woodroffe grade separations 200 million each which adds another 400 million dollars. When i total that up it brings the total at least 2 billion dollars. Its no wonder why they looked at Kanata first before Barrhaven

The costs to bring the Trillium line to Barrhaven will be much lower since the main issue was addressed already plus it helps having to cover a shorter distance.

I have issues with the way you are double counting things in that estimate. First of all, you are including the "Fallowfield and Woodroffe grade separations" which I said above is irrelevant, since the city is planning on doing those regardless. Secondly I take issue with your 100 million per km plus 100 million per station. As I say in this post, the Moodie to Terry Fox extension is estimated at $110.94 million / km including 3 stations, and there isn't an existing transitway along any of that stretch that can be re-purposed to keep costs down.

As for it being shorter. The distance from Limebank to "Barrhaven Centre" Station is about 6.7 km. Not a massive savings from the approximately 9.5km from Baseline to the same "Barrhaven Centre" Station (assuming they built it that far). They would probably want to build at least 6 stations (probably more) along Trillium Line extension, so not a huge cost savings there either.

I fully admit that the 630m from Knoxdale to Hunt Club will be expensive, but almost everything else will be dirt cheap.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by zzptichka

Yep, if PC want to have a chance at keeping their seat in Nepean in the next election the last thing they want to do is cut LRT to Moodie/Baseline.

You can buy a lot of suburban votes with road "improvements".

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

Except that isn't a part of the Transportation Master Plan.

The Transportation Master Plan, like most City of Ottawa plans, was obsolete before the ink dried.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

The Transportation Master Plan, like most City of Ottawa plans, was obsolete before the ink dried.

Well, they're still following it which means the Trillium Line isn't going to cross the river into Barrhaven.

[OtrainUser]

Originally Posted by roger1818

The track would run along the western edge of Woodroffe, so there would be no need to ever cross it. I assume you are instead referring to the VIA Rail crossing just north of Fallowfield. As I said, there are already plans in the works to grade separate, so if we are going to do that anyway, that would be a good time to upgrade to LRT, rather than build a transitway bridge and then later convert it to rail. As for the LRT crossing Fallowfield, that is adjacent to where VIA Rail crosses the road, so when they grade separate that crossing, they could extend the bridge to also cross the LRT for not much additional cost.

As a result, both of these crossings are inconsequential. If anything those crossings are an opportunity to save money on an LRT extension.



It is better to reference or quote posts (especially if in other threads) rather than leave it up to the reader to find it for themselves. I will do it for you though:



I have issues with the way you are double counting things in that estimate. First of all, you are including the "Fallowfield and Woodroffe grade separations" which I said above is irrelevant, since the city is planning on doing those regardless. Secondly I take issue with your 100 million per km plus 100 million per station. As I say in this post, the Moodie to Terry Fox extension is estimated at $110.94 million / km including 3 stations, and there isn't an existing transitway along any of that stretch that can be re-purposed to keep costs down.

As for it being shorter. The distance from Limebank to "Barrhaven Centre" Station is about 6.7 km. Not a massive savings from the approximately 9.5km from Baseline to the same "Barrhaven Centre" Station (assuming they built it that far). They would probably want to build at least 6 stations (probably more) along Trillium Line extension, so not a huge cost savings there either.

I fully admit that the 630m from Knoxdale to Hunt Club will be expensive, but almost everything else will be dirt cheap.

Fair enough we will see what happens in 15 to 20 years after stage 3 is complete

[OtrainUser]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

Well, they're still following it which means the Trillium Line isn't going to cross the river into Barrhaven.

We will have to wait 15 to 20 years if that remains the case and don't forget TMP's do get updated so there maybe some changes that we haven't discussed yet.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

The Transportation Master Plan, like most City of Ottawa plans, was obsolete before the ink dried.

I’m not sure about before the ink dried, but it is well known that it’s obsolete today. The plan is to wait for the dust to settle on the Confedetiin Line before drafting a new one as while we have many great theories as to how it will affect transportation in Ottawa, we won’t really know until we see the actual results.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by OtrainUser

Fair enough we will see what happens in 15 to 20 years after stage 3 is complete

My view is we shouldn’t wait quite that long, and besides, just because we did an EA doesn’t mean we should build the entire extension. We are going to learn a lot over the next 5 years. Let’s use that knowledge effectively.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

Well, they're still following it which means the Trillium Line isn't going to cross the river into Barrhaven.

Except they're not still following chunks of it, especially the non-LRT parts.

Pretty well every proposed improvement to non-BRT bus transit has been chucked.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by OtrainUser

The key word you just said is 13 years and since the city usually replaces a fleet of vehicles around that timeframe then its not a waste like you think it is.

Maybe for buses, but trains last longer. Here are some sources:

http://urbankchoze.blogspot.com/2014/07/brt-and-lrt-transit-war.html

For one, light rail vehicles can last much longer than buses. The average life expectancy of a light rail car is about 40 years, that of a bus, about 15 years.

https://www.21stcentury-rail.com/what-future-is-there-for-the-diesel-train/

the lifespan of a DMU is around 30 years

It is true the city replaced their Talent DMUs after 14 years, but given that they are trying to sell them shows that they are not at their end of life, but that there were other reasons for replacing them.

[OtrainUser]

Originally Posted by roger1818

My view is we shouldn’t wait quite that long, and besides, just because we did an EA doesn’t mean we should build the entire extension. We are going to learn a lot over the next 5 years. Let’s use that knowledge effectively.

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/separated-rail-crossings-in-barrhaven-area-would-cost-430m

Looks like I was over in my estimate by 125 million for the 2 via rail grade separations but its still cost prohibitive. Even if its 275 million there is no way the city has the money to pay for those grade separations so i have no idea how they will do it.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

Except they're not still following chunks of it, especially the non-LRT parts.

Pretty well every proposed improvement to non-BRT bus transit has been chucked.

LRT-wise, the city will look a lot like the Network Concept outlined in the TMP with the exception of a Carling LRT.

But anyway, my original point was that extending Line 2 into Barrhaven isn't as menial of a task as some other modifications to the TMP have been.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

Except they're not still following chunks of it, especially the non-LRT parts.

Pretty well every proposed improvement to non-BRT bus transit has been chucked.

This is so true. I keep wondering when the Baseline BRT will ever begin construction (I call this the missing link in our transit system), let alone any other proposal. The city has blown the bank on the Confederation Line and has no money for anything else other than a single track extension for the Trillium Line.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by OtrainUser

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/separated-rail-crossings-in-barrhaven-area-would-cost-430m

Looks like I was over in my estimate by 125 million for the 2 via rail grade separations but its still cost prohibitive. Even if its 275 million there is no way the city has the money to pay for those grade separations so i have no idea how they will do it.

With government funding. Typically the railway helps pay for grade separations and given that VIA Rail (the owner of the Smiths Falls Subdivision) is a Crown Corporation, it would fall on the federal government. Transport Canada's Rail Safety Improvement Program would likely contribute some money as well.

[PHrenetic]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

This is so true. I keep wondering when the Baseline BRT will ever begin construction (I call this the missing link in our transit system), let alone any other proposal. The city has blown the bank on the Confederation Line and has no money for anything else other than a single track extension for the Trillium Line.

Good Day.

Unfortunately, the City has put Baseline BRT on indefinite back-burner.
The EA and TPAP are all completed, finished and reported, as of September 2017, and that was it. The End. FIN.

NoJoy!

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by PHrenetic

Good Day.

Unfortunately, the City has put Baseline BRT on indefinite back-burner.
The EA and TPAP are all completed, finished and reported, as of September 2017, and that was it. The End. FIN.

NoJoy!

Just as I figured. It is projects like this that will in the long-term grow our ridership since it will significantly speed up transit, and in peak periods, often transit will operate faster than cars. It will be a real benefit for a lot of people, some of whom are not currently transit users.

[Multi-modal]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Just as I figured. It is projects like this that will in the long-term grow our ridership since it will significantly speed up transit, and in peak periods, often transit will operate faster than cars. It will be a real benefit for a lot of people, some of whom are not currently transit users.

The Baseline BRT is currently going through a $12 Million dollar detailed design (using PTIF funds). Just because there hasn't been any consultation or a City website doesn't mean its shelved.