O-Train Line 1/3 [Stage 2 | West Extension | Tunney's to Baseline/Moodie] | U/C

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

Or not. The PCs are intellectually married at the hip to driving culture.

Quite frankly, I would not be surprised if they cut Confed East and Trillium South and directed that to Barrhaven and Kanata. Parties have to reward their voters. And in an environment where they are also making other cuts, the pot gets really limited.

[OtrainUser]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Quite frankly, I would not be surprised if they cut Confed East and Trillium South and directed that to Barrhaven and Kanata. Parties have to reward their voters. And in an environment where they are also making other cuts, the pot gets really limited.

He already said the funding for stage 2 is secure so there is no reason to worry about it. If you look at this way, this will increase the probability of stage 3 happening sooner than later and more likely that Trillium gets extended to Barrhaven since that is the cheaper option and a good way to reward his voters.

[SF Thomas]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Quite frankly, I would not be surprised if they cut Confed East and Trillium South and directed that to Barrhaven and Kanata. Parties have to reward their voters. And in an environment where they are also making other cuts, the pot gets really limited.

I don't think that's very likely since the city still has to build the western LRT segment to Algonuin College and Bayshore first before even thinking about Kanata or Barrhaven. Also its debatable if the city's funds for Orleans LRT would cover the cost of extending it to Kanata or Barrhaven, since it is projected to be more expensive.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by OtrainUser

He already said the funding for stage 2 is secure so there is no reason to worry about it. If you look at this way, this will increase the probability of stage 3 happening sooner than later and more likely that Trillium gets extended to Barrhaven since that is the cheaper option and a good way to reward his voters.

The extension to Limebank was announced after he said that, so it could be cut, but that’s PC territory (Carleton, same as Stittsville).

[zzptichka]

Yep, if PC want to have a chance at keeping their seat in Nepean in the next election the last thing they want to do is cut LRT to Moodie/Baseline.
Orleans/Limebank on the other hand...

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by roger1818

The extension to Limebank was announced after he said that, so it could be cut, but that’s PC territory (Carleton, same as Stittsville).

Yeah but Carleton is so safe that I doubt the Ford government will feel any need to get them goodies.

[passwordisnt123]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Quite frankly, I would not be surprised if they cut Confed East and Trillium South and directed that to Barrhaven and Kanata. Parties have to reward their voters. And in an environment where they are also making other cuts, the pot gets really limited.

Frankly the southern extension of Trilium is so poorly planned right now that just axing the whole thing until we can get a plan that isn't utterly insane might not be such a poor outcome. We need interlining not a spur to Airport and somebody needs to better think through putting train stations in the middle of empty fields.

I'm the opposite of a Tory supporter, but if that's only change the PCs force on our transit expansion plans, I think we'll be in pretty decent shape.

[Wooderson]

Agree with Password - just go straight to the airport in the south and not empty fields....A Bank street line and over the PoW bridge to Terasses/PDP would be stronger next steps IMHO.

[OCCheetos]

This is getting a little off-topic for this thread (since this is about the Western LRT), but the southern extension is being built to meet predicted growth in the area.

Building new developments around existing transit is a lot better and easier to do than to build new developments and to try and squish transit into that. Extending it to Limebank also helps serve the existing Riverside South area too.

[Richard Eade]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

...

Building new developments around existing transit is a lot better and easier to do than to build new developments and to try and squish transit into that.
...

Despite this being the wrong thread for it, I need to point out something.

I keep hearing/reading statements like the quote with respect to the Trillium Line's south extension. While true for already built-up areas, it is nonsense to try to apply that same logic to Riverside South. Currently there is very little development in the area, with most of it still open fields. Sure, there might, one day in the future, be 60,000 people in the area, but right now there is a small fraction of that. Certainly there is not the population, currently, to justify hundreds of millions of dollars being spent on high-order transit.

The problem with already built-up areas is that high-order transit was not considered when the planning happened. In the case of Riverside South, there has been lots of planning and the corridors are already reserved for transit. Nothing will need to be 'shoe-horned' in later.

I'm not trying to call out OCCeetos for the comment, since it is the stand that the City has been pushing since the O-Train was first imagined. I'm just pointing out that it was rot then and it still is.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

This is getting a little off-topic for this thread (since this is about the Western LRT),

Yes this is off topic. I replied in the Trillium Line South LRT Extension (Stage 2) thread.

[OtrainUser]

Every one of you guys talk as if the Trillium Line is expected to only terminate in Riverside south long-term which is definitely not the case. The real reason they want to extend it that far south is so they can terminate it at Barrhaven Centre station in Barrhaven which means it would serve 90,000 plus residents and not just the few thousand at Riverside south.

This is by far the better and cheaper option than extending Confederation line south from Baseline station. I wish you guys didn't forget this.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by OtrainUser

Every one of you guys talk as if the Trillium Line is expected to only terminate in Riverside south long-term which is definitely not the case. The real reason they want to extend it that far south is so they can terminate it at Barrhaven Centre station in Barrhaven which means it would serve 90,000 plus residents and not just the few thousand at Riverside south.

This is by far the better and cheaper option than extending Confederation line south from Baseline station. I wish you guys didn't forget this.

Except that isn't a part of the Transportation Master Plan. The TMP has an LRT line terminating in Riverside South with BRT between it and the terminus of the Confederation Line.

Extending it into Barrhaven would also involve building a new rail bridge which isn't necessarily cheap. If you want the cheapest option, then just reread some of the stuff in the Rural Commuter Rail thread.

[OtrainUser]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

Except that isn't a part of the Transportation Master Plan. The TMP has an LRT line terminating in Riverside South with BRT between it and the terminus of the Confederation Line.

Extending it into Barrhaven would also involve building a new rail bridge which isn't necessarily cheap. If you want the cheapest option, then just reread some of the stuff in the Rural Commuter Rail thread.

Extending LRT to Stittsville wasn't part of the TMP either but now they want to do it eventually.

The roads are wide enough as is the bridge to put the tracks on it at-grade to begin with so no problem there. I have re-read the stuff in the Rural thread since i posted there too as well. All the roads that were part of the original 2006 plan were built wide enough so the cheaper option of extending LRT from Riverside South to Barrhaven is still a good and cheaper option that will serve more residents in the present and future.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by OtrainUser

Extending LRT to Stittsville wasn't part of the TMP either but now they want to do it eventually.

The roads are wide enough as is the bridge to put the tracks on it at-grade to begin with so no problem there. I have re-read the stuff in the Rural thread since i posted there too as well. All the roads that were part of the original 2006 plan were built wide enough so the cheaper option of extending LRT from Riverside South to Barrhaven is still a good and cheaper option that will serve more residents in the present and future.

That's fair enough, but this is a slightly bigger change than that one (with the bridge and all). Considering that they seem steadfast on building the Line 2 extension, I doubt they'd change their mind on the Line 1 extension to Barrhaven either.

That was for a different type of LRT though. There's no way they'd run Trillium Line style trains on roads. They're already going above and beyond to grade separate the entire thing now.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by OtrainUser

Every one of you guys talk as if the Trillium Line is expected to only terminate in Riverside south long-term which is definitely not the case. The real reason they want to extend it that far south is so they can terminate it at Barrhaven Centre station in Barrhaven which means it would serve 90,000 plus residents and not just the few thousand at Riverside south.

This is by far the better and cheaper option than extending Confederation line south from Baseline station. I wish you guys didn't forget this.

I dispute both of those assertions. I highly doubt if it would be cheaper. As OCCheetos says, neither the existing LINT nor the future FLRT trains would be permitted to run in mixed traffic, so the options would be:

1. Upgrade the entire Trillium line to allow the use of real LRT vehicles and then replace all of the vehicles they have purchased, or
2. Build a new bridge.

Neither of these options would be cheap. As for being better, it might be marginally better for those who live close to the Vimy Memorial Bridge, but for the vast majority of Barrhaven residents it would mean a longer, circuitous route that doesn't even take them all the way downtown. True not everyone is going downtown, but the majority are.

[OtrainUser]

Originally Posted by roger1818

I dispute both of those assertions. I highly doubt if it would be cheaper. As OCCheetos says, neither the existing LINT nor the future FLRT trains would be permitted to run in mixed traffic, so the options would be:

1. Upgrade the entire Trillium line to allow the use of real LRT vehicles and then replace all of the vehicles they have purchased, or
2. Build a new bridge.

Neither of these options would be cheap. As for being better, it might be marginally better for those who live close to the Vimy Memorial Bridge, but for the vast majority of Barrhaven residents it would mean a longer, circuitous route that doesn't even take them all the way downtown. True not everyone is going downtown, but the majority are.

Based on documents I read from the city, they will most likely go with option 1. Check one of my posts on the rural thread and you will find an estimate i gave for extending the confederation line south from baseline. My estimate is at least 2 billion dollars in current terms which will definitely get more expensive years from now. Extending Trillium line to Barrhaven will come nowhere close to those costs even if its 10 years from now.

Another thing to consider is that alot of Barrhaven residents work in Gatineau so when you factor stage 3 connection to Kanata and Gatineau and a possible stage 4 extension of Trillium to Barrhaven you eliminate a transfer which makes public transit more likely to be used.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by OtrainUser

Based on documents I read from the city, they will most likely go with option 1. Check one of my posts on the rural thread and you will find an estimate i gave for extending the confederation line south from baseline. My estimate is at least 2 billion dollars in current terms which will definitely get more expensive years from now. Extending Trillium line to Barrhaven will come nowhere close to those costs even if its 10 years from now.

Another thing to consider is that alot of Barrhaven residents work in Gatineau so when you factor stage 3 connection to Kanata and Gatineau and a possible stage 4 extension of Trillium to Barrhaven you eliminate a transfer which makes public transit more likely to be used.

There's no indication that the city will ever really consider converting the Trillium Line to more conventional LRT vehicles from now on. The original N-S LRT plan that would have done so is long dead and at this point the Trillium Line is too built up as it is to be converted without even bigger expenses.
To them, the current Trillium Line is LRT and the very first step towards electrification (buying electric-capable vehicles, AKA the FLIRTs) are already being put in place. Ditching all of those vehicles and buying a new fleet now (or within the next 13 years) would just be a waste.

[OtrainUser]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

There's no indication that the city will ever really consider converting the Trillium Line to more conventional LRT vehicles from now on. The original N-S LRT plan that would have done so is long dead and at this point the Trillium Line is too built up as it is to be converted without even bigger expenses.
To them, the current Trillium Line is LRT and the very first step towards electrification (buying electric-capable vehicles, AKA the FLIRTs) are already being put in place. Ditching all of those vehicles and buying a new fleet now (or within the next 13 years) would just be a waste.

The key word you just said is 13 years and since the city usually replaces a fleet of vehicles around that timeframe then its not a waste like you think it is.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by OtrainUser

The key word you just said is 13 years and since the city usually replaces a fleet of vehicles around that timeframe then its not a waste like you think it is.

They usually rebuild them at least once first once they've been in service for ~15 years. (By 2031 the new FLIRTs would have only have been in service for 10). Regardless, there would still be regulatory issues, platform/station modifications, etc.

There isn't really anything to be gained from converting the line anyway other than the extension you're talking about which isn't in the current or future plans.