Portage and Main re-opening 2016

[trueviking]

Hate to interrupt this hyperbolic rant, but the traffic study was released more than a year ago.

http://winnipeg.ca/interhom/PortageMain/pdfs/TrafficStudy.pdf

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Riverman

Could be but we'll never know will we? If the report's analysis was that benign why not release it?

Transit saw the report and we all know their reaction to it.

For a guy who doesn't care, you sure have a lot to say about it

[trueviking]

Also. What is a Jenny M?

[Riverman]

Your next mayor.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/motkaluk-winnipeg-mayor-campaign-1.4591750

[Riverman]

Originally Posted by trueviking

Hate to interrupt this hyperbolic rant, but the traffic study was released more than a year ago.

http://winnipeg.ca/interhom/PortageMain/pdfs/TrafficStudy.pdf

I meant the one before Bowman asked for a different result. The one Browaty argued but failed to get released.

[Riverman]

Originally Posted by esquire

For a guy who doesn't care, you sure have a lot to say about it

Would you prefer I just kept quiet or towed the line? Everyone I have spoken to in Winnipeg has the same opinion. Please don't be offended.

The next election will decide this.

Please don't make this personal. Don't be be a Pinus or an Ando.

[ILYR]

I fully support the opening of Portage and Main. As I have noted in earlier posts on this topic, the argument against opening is possible effects on vehicular traffic. Note that closing Portage and Main was not based entirely on vehicular traffic, but rather more about the businesses around there controlling the flow of foot traffic to their benefit. Winnipeg's downtown is changing, granted slower than most would hope. More people are starting to live downtown, whether it be in the exchange, Broadway area, Point Douglas and soon to be the Forks. This means more people moving through the Portage and Main area by foot. The ability to move through that area should not be dictated solely by people who need to pass through in their cars twice a day during rush hour traffic who live in the suburbs.

The intersection is surrounded by controlled intersections with pedestrian traffic so the thought that opening this intersection will cause all hell to break loose in unlikely to happen. As I noted in the past, this area and the adjacent blocks are dead. The 30 year experiment with the barricades up is part of 1970's planning. It failed. Time to move forward like other parts of downtown.

I am sure when it does open, there will be a transition period, where there may be some problems. People will cry out in anger and fear and I told you so moments. However, I predict that after a year everyone will wonder what all the fuss was about in the first place.

This is my opinion.

[Jets4Life]

Originally Posted by Riverman

Short memory. He got elected because he was really the only choice. No one was listening to his platform, all anyone could hear was "not Judy".

That is the way I remember the 2014 Civic Election too. It was not so much vote for Bowman, but rather "vote for anyone but Judy W-L" since she was such an atrocious candidate. Opening Portage and Main is a trivial issue. No smart politician is going to run for mayor with that, as their main agenda.

[buzzg]

Originally Posted by windypeg

We all know that the average Joe Winnipegger is against it. The average Joe Winnipegger is also usually completely out of touch with planning, urbanism and what modern, successful cities do to thrive. If we just did whatever the populist mob wanted every time, we'd have an arena in Headingly with 20,000-car parking lot, cycling would be illegal, Winnipeg Transit would be disbanded and there would be programs in place to aggresively demolish buildings downtown to make way for piles of unnecessary cheap surface parking everywhere.

People are against it because they have bought into all these kooky theories that armageddon is going to happen if we open it and they frankly don't know what they're talking about.

Bingo. There's a reason why "urban planner," "city planner," and "engineer" are all jobs that exist, which require specific education.

Originally Posted by Wolf13

Part of the problem is that the conversation surrounding P+M is being stifled by the shouting of its opponents.

Winnipeggers always complain about their city compared to more exciting urban centres, but clearly don't acknowledge that the positions they hold counteract what made those other cities great. Everyone suddenly fancies themselves a genius without knowing a damned thing.

Yes, exactly. It's like the people who complain that "Winnipeg is dirty," or that homeless people exist here, or whatever other thing they have a gripe with – have you ever even travelled beyond Kenora?

[Jets4Life]

Originally Posted by optimusREIM

Once the thing opens, maybe it won't feel like we live in a city of 800,000 chicken littles. Although it will definitely take a while for people to get over it.

So much potential to be something special and we're actually debating the merits of this.....

Originally Posted by windypeg

We all know that the average Joe Winnipegger is against it. The average Joe Winnipegger is also usually completely out of touch with planning, urbanism and what modern, successful cities do to thrive. If we just did whatever the populist mob wanted every time, we'd have an arena in Headingly with 20,000-car parking lot, cycling would be illegal, Winnipeg Transit would be disbanded and there would be programs in place to aggresively demolish buildings downtown to make way for piles of unnecessary cheap surface parking everywhere.

People are against it because they have bought into all these kooky theories that armageddon is going to happen if we open it and they frankly don't know what they're talking about.

Originally Posted by buzzg

Bingo. There's a reason why "urban planner," "city planner," and "engineer" are all jobs that exist, which require specific education.

Yes, exactly. It's like the people who complain that "Winnipeg is dirty," or that homeless people exist here, or whatever other thing they have a gripe with – have you ever even travelled beyond Kenora?

Translation:

"Winnipeggers are a hunch of simpletons, who are incapable of intellectual thought. However, I am more intelligent than the average citizen of Winnipeg. Therefore, they are beneath me, and if they happen to disagree, they are wrong!"


I could care less one way or another, as to whether Portage & Main is opened. However, some posters act as if they are "above" the average citizen, that if a vote were held tomorrow about opening P & M, I would be tempted to vote no, just to stick it to these self-appointed "elitist" fools. Have you ever thought that YOU may be what is wrong with Winnipeg, for such a condescending attitude towards your fellow neighbors? You guys really need to get over yourselves.

[DowntownBooster]

Originally Posted by windypeg

Probably because it says it will slow traffic by a couple of minutes and they know people will overreact wildly as if taking another 2 mins to drive down Main st will bring about the end times. People lost their minds over them just doing the study in the first place. I don't think I've ever seen another city where people so fiercely oppose change just for the sake of opposing change. If the status quo was working better for us maybe I would get it.

People here always tend to overreact on issues like this. I can't believe one intersection could cause such an uproar that people want to make it an election issue. It reminds me of all the people in the 90's that were vehemently opposed to a new arena for the Jets saying that our health care would be jeopardized if public funds were used on an arena or that the money could better be used to end poverty in the city. Well we all know the arena never got built and the Jets departed for Phoenix all the while we still had hallway medicine and the poverty issue was not solved. Too much short term thinking by too many people.

[Jets4Life]

Originally Posted by DowntownBooster

People here always tend to overreact on issues like this. I can't believe one intersection could cause such an uproar that people want to make it an election issue. It reminds me of all the people in the 90's that were vehemently opposed to a new arena for the Jets saying that our health care would be jeopardized if public funds were used on an arena or that the money could better be used to end poverty in the city. Well we all know the arena never got built and the Jets departed for Phoenix all the while we still had hallway medicine and the poverty issue was not solved. Too much short term thinking by too many people.

Opposition to the new arena by a vocal minority of citizens had absolutey no effect on the fate of the Jets 1.0. It was the inability of the Spirit of Manitoba group to band together and buy the team from Barry Shankerow, the weak Canadian dollar, escalating player salaries, and the powers that be not having the money or will to build the team an arena that did the Jets in. I remember the great arena debate for the Jets 1.0 vividly. The people who complained about the money could go to better use (i.e.hospital beds, etc) were the vocal minority. Most Winnipeggers were in favor of a new arena, even if it meant the Government paid for a portion of it.

In 1991, the Province of Manitoba agreed to cover the losses of the Winnipeg Jets for four years, to give the team owners time to find and sell to local owners, and build an arena. When the agreement ran out after the 1994-95 season, Barry Shankerow was about to sell the Jets to a group from Minneapolis, and move the Jets to Minnesota.

That fell through when a huge grassroots initiative was launched, and thousands of ordinary Manitobans donated $6 million for the Jets to stay. The business community under the name "Spirit of Manitoba" was formed, in order to buy the team and build an 18,000 seat arena for the Jets. Unfortunately, it fell apart, and the team was sold to US owners who moved the Jets to Arizona.

The group in question, that was against the arena being built with taxpayers money (Thin Ice), were greeted with harassment, outrage, and even death threats for their troubles.

Even when True North and the Government agreed to build a 15,000 seat downtown arena in 2001, there was still a vocal contingent of opponents of the arena, who wanted to "Save the Eatons Building." The group attempted to formed a human chain around the building, but only 35 or so people showed up. Not even enough to stretch one block, let alone around the building.

[buzzg]

Originally Posted by Jets4Life

Translation:

"Winnipeggers are a hunch of simpletons, who are incapable of intellectual thought. However, I am more intelligent than the average citizen of Winnipeg. Therefore, they are beneath me, and if they happen to disagree, they are wrong!"


I could care less one way or another, as to whether Portage & Main is opened. However, some posters act as if they are "above" the average citizen, that if a vote were held tomorrow about opening P & M, I would be tempted to vote no, just to stick it to these self-appointed "elitist" fools. Have you ever thought that YOU may be what is wrong with Winnipeg, for such a condescending attitude towards your fellow neighbors? You guys really need to get over yourselves.

Well most people are un(der)educated about most topics. For arguments sake let's say there's 100 professions in the world – most people are well-versed in maybe 1-3, and have a sense of another 3-5. There are MANY subjects I don't have a hot uniformed clue about, and I'm cool with that. Most people on here are at leased versed in the development/planning world, if not experts. So no, I don't think it's a stretch at all to say the average Winnipegger (or person anywhere really) doesn't have a clue about the real pros, cons, and hyperbole of this P&M development, or any other.

[Tacheguy]

it gets down to representative democracy versus direct democracy. I will take the former every time due to the complex implications of even the most simple sounding decisions.

[Jets4Life]

Originally Posted by buzzg

Well most people are un(der)educated about most topics. For arguments sake let's say there's 100 professions in the world – most people are well-versed in maybe 1-3, and have a sense of another 3-5. There are MANY subjects I don't have a hot uniformed clue about, and I'm cool with that. Most people on here are at leased versed in the development/planning world, if not experts. So no, I don't think it's a stretch at all to say the average Winnipegger (or person anywhere really) doesn't have a clue about the real pros, cons, and hyperbole of this P&M development, or any other.

Maybe I'm being too critical of the posters who think this way, but it really rubs some the wrong way to suggest the average citizen is inferior to people with understanding of civic issues or urban planning. Believe me, the average citizen is much more intelligent than some on this forum give them credit for. While it's true that many Winnipeggers do not have background in civil engineering, or city planning, to say the average citizen does not have a "clue" about these issues is condescending, and incorrect.

[buzzg]

Well I disagree, but that's cool.

[optimusREIM]

^ it's not that hard to work out that this is a net positive. It just baffles me considering the amount of intersections across the city, that have higher traffic counts in some cases, that are open to pedestrians. Like people should be clamouring to reclaim this highly symbolic space and transform it into what it can be for the city. I love the city to death but I don't get this resistance to any change. The barriers are like the proverbial "Mauer im Kopf", they're certainly an obstacle physically speaking, but they represent a psychological impediment to the transformation of the can't into a can do attitude for the city.

I really believe it will be the first domino to fall in a serious renaissance.

But I seriously swear that people have made that Weakerthans song into some weird self-fulfilling prophesy, and it explains the Winnipeg psyche perfectly.

[Ando]

Originally Posted by Riverman

Would you prefer I just kept quiet or towed the line? Everyone I have spoken to in Winnipeg has the same opinion. Please don't be offended.

The next election will decide this.

Please don't make this personal. Don't be be a Pinus or an Ando.

Please don’t make it personal but then you do? Be a hypocrite much? You don’t live in the city anymore but you’re still the same bitter sad old man. Anecdotally you hear the things you do because you hang ariound with a bunch of Doug Ford wannabes. I suspect Bowman will be re-elected. The intersection will re-open. But why am I telling you this? You don’t care.

[Tacheguy]

Originally Posted by optimusREIM

^ it's not that hard to work out that this is a net positive. It just baffles me considering the amount of intersections across the city, that have higher traffic counts in some cases, that are open to pedestrians. Like people should be clamouring to reclaim this highly symbolic space and transform it into what it can be for the city. I love the city to death but I don't get this resistance to any change. The barriers are like the proverbial "Mauer im Kopf", they're certainly an obstacle physically speaking, but they represent a psychological impediment to the transformation of the can't into a can do attitude for the city.

I really believe it will be the first domino to fall in a serious renaissance.

Well the civic leaders who gave us Assiniboine Park were nearly strung up. Ditto for the L'Esplanade. Leadership is a real thing, and sometimes leaders have to get out in front of public opinion. I agree with Jet though that it should be respectful. After all most "elite opinion" is nothing more than dressed up bs.

[Ando]

Riverman’s modus operandi has always been knee jerk opposition to any initiative that is progressive, positive, exciting for the city. He’s been extremely consistent in his negativity towards everything. It has nothing to do with elitism or everymanism or any ism. He’s just bitter about everything. Why that is I have no idea. The fact he doesn’t even llive in the city makes it even more mind-boggling.