Confederation Line (Stage 1) | In Service 1.0

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by roger1818

If only there was a nice way of walking to the station from them.

I agree but people will do it anyway. The appeal of not paying downtown parking is a strong motivator for many people.

Though it's true that downtown Ottawa isn't that expensive compared to many other places - especially the city's market garages.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

I'm not calling for "utilitarian" structures.

Yes, you are:

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

I'm calling for less money to be wasted on things that have no bearing on function.

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

...on soaring glass vanity swoops and often-dubious art.

I am curious. Can you provide an example of station architecture that you think would have been acceptable for Ottawa?

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

If so that's way too much. Even the art set-aside is too much IMHO.

You think 1-2% for public art is too much?

And yet you think you're not asking for utilitarian stations? I am starting to think you may not know the definition of the word.

On the broader point, this thinking is beyond strange. Architecture only increases the cost of the stations. And the stations themselves are not even 20% of the total project cost. The engineering and construction of the line, maintenance facilities and vehicles all add up to more than the cost of the stations. So arguing over 10% of an increase in station cost... I don't see how that would have gotten you a single km more of transit, if that's what you think the outcome would be.

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

Yes, and you can have consistent, identity-based design without going overboard

Your definition of overboard is probably pretty close to acottawa: anything more than a pole in the ground....

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

The bidders were given a set budget, and what some people are calling "lavishness" is something RTG threw in. The sloping high roofs aren't as frivolous as one might think, they are part of the passive climate control features, and I can see that the elements and materials (like the widespread use of glass barriers) are so low maintenance you can practically hose the stations down to keep them looking new.

Like, geez, a contractor includes some flair as part of their bundled cost and some conservative-minded curmudgeons think it's too much. This is why it's hard to get nice things in this city. The difference between designing something nice and something ugly isn't necessarily money, it's skill.

You are talking about guys who aren't engineers, who think anything more than a pole in the ground is overkill.

You are absolutely right. Good design should enhance function and aesthetics. Good station design should have a common "look and feel" to the point that the stations are recognizable in any neighbourhood. They should have common traffic sense/pedestrian flow within. And they should have materials and finishes that are easy to maintain. These are the types of requirements that were probably written in. RTG interpreted them into what we see.

I highly doubt that OC Transpo put in a requirement for "soaring glass vanity swoops". But these are people who don't get how requirements are written and think that if there's some architecture beyond a basic box, there's room to cut the budget.

[McC]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Yes, you are:

You think 1-2% for public art is too much?

it's not even that much, the City's policy is 1% of the City's contribution to the capital costs of the project, so they subtract all of the design, engineering, project management, etc. costs, and subtract the federal and provincial shares before calculating the 1% on the difference. That's why it's $7M not $21M for the Confederation Line's public art: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/lrt-ottawa-confederation-line-1.4220157

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by McC

it's not even that much, the City's policy is 1% of the City's contribution to the capital costs of the project, so they subtract all of the design, engineering, project management, etc. costs, and subtract the federal and provincial shares before calculating the 1% on the difference. That's why it's $7M not $21M for the Confederation Line's public art: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/lrt-ottawa-confederation-line-1.4220157

That explains why the art is so sparse and possibly even a bit mediocre at times.

Also, shows how ignorant some of these viewpoints are. What more would $7 million have done for transit over the life of the line?

[McC]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

That explains why the art is so sparse and possibly even a bit mediocre at times.

Part of that is also just a function of how individual tastes respond to the different kinds of art, since the City didn't mind procuring very different types of pieces in the different stations. I prefer the mosaics and murals that essentially become one with the station itself, and give each station a distinct personality, over the standalone sculptural pieces, like the ones at Bayview (that I agree might seem sparse). But at the same time, those tulip-type sculptures at Bayview will also be benches, so someone else will prefer that they have form and a useful function. TL-DR: these are pretty subjective experiences.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

That explains why the art is so sparse and possibly even a bit mediocre at times.

Also, shows how ignorant some of these viewpoints are. What more would $7 million have done for transit over the life of the line?

More escalators at the downtown stations
Better link to the NAC
More washrooms
A decent pedestrian connection at St Laurent
Some shelter from the elements at the Hurdman bus station

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by acottawa

More escalators at the downtown stations
Better link to the NAC
More washrooms
A decent pedestrian connection at St Laurent
Some shelter from the elements at the Hurdman bus station

Escalators running that deep underground are probably around $20M each, so $7M wouldn't have gone far there. But you could probably pick 3 of the other 4 items and do it for $7M.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by acottawa

More escalators at the downtown stations
Better link to the NAC
More washrooms
A decent pedestrian connection at St Laurent
Some shelter from the elements at the Hurdman bus station

You are assuming that all those things were cut because of cost?

Somehow I doubt that.

Take washrooms for example. Constructing them is not the major cost over the life of the system. Cleaning them is. Which is why the number of washroom was probably limited.

And ironic that you complaint about shelter from the elements on the bus platform, when you think nothing of arguing that there should be little to no shelter on the train platform at the smaller stations. And Hurdman has shelter. Just not immediately beside the bus bay.

Some of the rest would well be more than $7 million. I don't think you can build walkway overpasses and tunnels for that cheap. But if you think all this is as cheap as $7 million, well ask council to fix all that. $7 million is a drop in the bucket if your estimates are right.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

You are assuming that all those things were cut because of cost?

Somehow I doubt that.

Take washrooms for example. Constructing them is not the major cost over the life of the system. Cleaning them is. Which is why the number of washroom was probably limited.

And ironic that you complaint about shelter from the elements on the bus platform, when you think nothing of arguing that there should be little to no shelter on the train platform at the smaller stations. And Hurdman has shelter. Just not immediately beside the bus bay.

There was considerable public discussion on LRT washrooms in 2015. Cost was certainly a factor.

A connection to the NAC was in the original plan but dropped because of cost considerations.

I'm saying that shelter should be linked to usage. The shelter needs of a station that serves 3 low rise condos, three low rise apartments and a thrift store are different than a major transfer station with thousands of people waiting for a local bus every day.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I'm saying that shelter should be linked to usage. The shelter needs of a station that serves 3 low rise condos, three low rise apartments and a thrift store are different than a major transfer station with thousands of people waiting for a local bus every day.

Do you think Cyrville will stay at 3 buildings forever? You also seem to forget about the employment node developing there.

And I fail to see why bus shelters are needed right up to the bay at Hurdman. There's plenty of shelter under the tracks, on the ground floor of the station:

http://www.ligneconfederationline.ca/the-build/hurdman/gallery/#jp-carousel-12621

Asking for shelters right by the bus bay? That's overkill.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by acottawa

There was considerable public discussion on LRT washrooms in 2015. Cost was certainly a factor.

A connection to the NAC was in the original plan but dropped because of cost considerations.

Fair enough. Let's cancel the art and deploy more urinals. Still does not add a km more to the network. Which was the original contention of this argument that the system was overbuilt.

[OCCheetos]

If they had decided to build more washrooms, we'd probably be debating whether it made financial sense to build a washroom at Cyrville Station instead of the roof.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Fair enough. Let's cancel the art and deploy more urinals. Still does not add a km more to the network. Which was the original contention of this argument that the system was overbuilt.

I think the art and the overbuiltness of the transitway are separate issues.

I don't have a problem with the art. I have a problem with setting the art budget as an arbitrary percentage of the capital budget. This forces the city to procure art because it is expensive (lots of bronze) and not because it has artistic merit or enhances the station. They could commission murals by up and coming artists and have millions left for station improvements.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Do you think Cyrville will stay at 3 buildings forever? You also seem to forget about the employment node developing there.

And I fail to see why bus shelters are needed right up to the bay at Hurdman. There's plenty of shelter under the tracks, on the ground floor of the station:

http://www.ligneconfederationline.ca/the-build/hurdman/gallery/#jp-carousel-12621

Asking for shelters right by the bus bay? That's overkill.

I have no idea how long it will take for Cyrville to develop, but none of the proposals so far look like they will drive much transit demand (smallish-office buildings, smallish condos, townhouses). Maybe Claudes will become a big hipster hangout.

Have you been to Hurdman? The bus platform continues well to the left of where the photo you link ends. At the same time, the track curves, so the under-the-track shelter is further from the platform (and I suspect it will be fenced off). There are a few shelters, but they are fully enclosed and turn into greenhouses between March and November.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by acottawa

There was considerable public discussion on LRT washrooms in 2015. Cost was certainly a factor.

I think what Truenorth00 was trying to say is construction cost wasn't a factor, as it is small compared to the lifetime cost. In a deal which included a 30 year support contract, the two merge together as a single expense. So yes it wasn't done because of cost, but not because of construction cost.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by OtrainUser

Having art at stations have a function, they make the station less dull.

Absolutely.

But do we need that art to be at a cost of 1% of a many-hundreds-of-million-dollar project?

No, we do not.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I am curious. Can you provide an example of station architecture that you think would have been acceptable for Ottawa?

Similar to what's being built, only with less pointless superstructure.

You think 1-2% for public art is too much?

On a $1.8-billion global budget? Yes, that's too much. Is there any policy basis for that 1% figure?

Your definition of overboard is probably pretty close to acottawa: anything more than a pole in the ground....

Not even close. I am a big fan, for example, of shelters that truly protect passengers from all of the Ottawa weather extremes. Some of the excess cost of architectural vanity and pretentiousness could have helped buy better shelter, whether at the infernal bus loops that OC Transpo insists are necessary at transfer stations, or elsewhere on the system.

Fun fact: OC Transpo will almost always claim it isn't "feasible" to install a shelter at a stop when people complain that their stop doesn't have a shelter. Maybe people should start complaining that their stop doesn't have an art, and we can start building arts that double as shelters.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Do you think Cyrville will stay at 3 buildings forever? You also seem to forget about the employment node developing there.

And I fail to see why bus shelters are needed right up to the bay at Hurdman. There's plenty of shelter under the tracks, on the ground floor of the station:

http://www.ligneconfederationline.ca/the-build/hurdman/gallery/#jp-carousel-12621

Asking for shelters right by the bus bay? That's overkill.

Asking for shelters RIGHT WHERE THE BUSES TAKE ON PASSENGERS, no, that is not overkill.

The design of Hurdman is one of the biggest fails in the entire LRT project.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

On a $1.8-billion global budget? Yes, that's too much. Is there any policy basis for that 1% figure?

.

I am not sure about Ontario, but Quebec has for many decades had the 1% art spending criteria for any facilities that receive provincial money. This was applied to everything from the Rapibus to the Casino de Hull/du Lac-Leamy to high schools and colleges.

It could be that even in the absence of such a prescription in Ontario, that because of what's done next door the 1% rule has imposed itself as a rule of thumb in some circles.