Confederation Line (Stage 1) | In Service 1.0

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I'm not arguing for no shelter. I'm saying that little neighbourhood stations don't need 100m of shelters like they have on the transitway. I would be highly surprised to see more than a dozen people waiting at Cyrville at any given time.

The shelters at the old Cyrville station look to me to have been only about 30m long. Granted the new station is bigger, though still not 100m (my guesstimate is between 60 and 65m)

[OCCheetos]

This document from the RTG has an entire section on the design of the stations.
http://www.ligneconfederationline.ca/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/355030628201309024522.pdf
(From page 65 onwards)

A Key point is "Systemized design". All stations should be similar in design as it makes it less confusing when going from station to station. All stations can be "familiar" in a sense.

There are also more details in this document on page 17. http://www.ligneconfederationline.ca/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/354930628201309010557.pdf
On page 58 it shows that the estimated cost of the Tunnel & Stations was $681M

[bikegypsy]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Most cities in democratic countries only put grandiose stations in a few key areas. The rest of the stations are usually pretty mundane.

I can't imagine tourists in Ottawa using more than a few stations: Rideau, Parliament, Lebreton (assuming something gets built there) and maybe Tremblay and Bayview (assuming the airport extension is completed).

All of the stations of the Confed line are pretty simple. The tilted roofs add just enough style to convey a sense of elegance. Outside the underground stations, only Tremblay with it's glass roof is a bit 'grand', although it will be a station welcoming train passengers from other cities. Even Hurdman, which will be a key station, is rather underwhelming. Ultimately, they're not bus shelters but transit portals that will see millions of passengers every month and will last at least 50 years, when Ottawa will probably have doubled in size.

[kmcamp]

Originally Posted by roger1818

The shelters at the old Cyrville station look to me to have been only about 30m long. Granted the new station is bigger, though still not 100m (my guesstimate is between 60 and 65m)

The new station is 90m, as is all of the surface confederation line stations. That's due to the length of the train itself dictating the platform length (and even then it's not the actual length of the train at 98m)

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I'm not arguing for no shelter. I'm saying that little neighbourhood stations don't need 100m of shelters like they have on the transitway. I would be highly surprised to see more than a dozen people waiting at Cyrville at any given time.

And? I have seen subway stations in Toronto with less than 12 people on the platform mid-day. Planners build stations with consistency so that service is consistent. Putting up a roof and a curb is hardly a major cost for a surface BRT/LRT station.

Also, Cyrville did not have 100m of shelter during the BRT days. It does today, because the train length is 100m, and there's substantial TOD potential and development going on around the station.

But your argument was that Cyrville was overbuilt as a BRT stop. That would seem to indicate that you thought infrastructure like a station box with a stairwell and shelter underneath an overpass was too much. So was that appropriate or too much in your opinion?

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

I think most of the Confederation Line stations are seriously overbuilt. Yes, they can and should be "nice", but there's no need for all those pointless soaring architectural wankeries.

Less "statments", less "art", more transit, please.

1) City building is about more than just putting up the most utilitarian structures.

2) Those cost of some architectural flair is not massive. I would bet money that the added cost is not even 10%.

3) Part of creating a consistent service experience and identity is design.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by roger1818

The shelters at the old Cyrville station look to me to have been only about 30m long. Granted the new station is bigger, though still not 100m (my guesstimate is between 60 and 65m)

Where do you see the 30 meter shelter? What I am seeing is the two enclosed stairwells and the outdoor concrete waiting area where the buses stop. This is similar to the set up at Walkley with the shelter being a small area at the bottom of the stairwell. Otherwise, the waiting area is outside.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Why does everything have to be second rate just because it is Ottawa?

It's the Canadian way. And its particularly prevalent in Ottawa. Thanks to some of the vision we see here. And the lot here are actually the most literate on the issues being discussed.

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

We need to get past being a 'tim-bits' city.

I don't have much hope for that. On one hand, the ignorant who think we don't need transit. On the other, people like Uhuniau who think an arched roof is too much and people like acottawa who think a stairwell is a frill.

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

We are a G7 capital. It is time to start looking like one.

When people on an urban forum can't respect the city to even have basic architecture on a transit line, why would you expect general citizens or the rest of Canada to?

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by bikegypsy

All of the stations of the Confed line are pretty simple. The tilted roofs add just enough style to convey a sense of elegance. Outside the underground stations, only Tremblay with it's glass roof is a bit 'grand', although it will be a station welcoming train passengers from other cities. Even Hurdman, which will be a key station, is rather underwhelming. Ultimately, they're not bus shelters but transit portals that will see millions of passengers every month and will last at least 50 years, when Ottawa will probably have doubled in size.

He thinks a stairwell was a frill. That explains why why he thinks an angled roof is "grand". I don't know what's to be gained with discussing design with someone who thinks a pole in the ground is all that's necessary for an RT stop.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by kmcamp

The new station is 90m, as is all of the surface confederation line stations. That's due to the length of the train itself dictating the platform length (and even then it's not the actual length of the train at 98m)

The platform is 90m long, but the shelter looks to not run the full length of the platform. At least they have gone with a centre platform design so to minimize the number of stairs and elevators needed.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Where do you see the 30 meter shelter? What I am seeing is the two enclosed stairwells and the outdoor concrete waiting area where the buses stop. This is similar to the set up at Walkley with the shelter being a small area at the bottom of the stairwell. Otherwise, the waiting area is outside.

I was being generous by including the roadway above the platform to be a form of shelter.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by roger1818

The platform is 90m long, but the shelter looks to not run the full length of the platform.

And if it was, that still would not make it "grand". Putting a roof over a concrete curb is not overkill.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

And if it was, that still would not make it "grand". Putting a roof over a concrete curb is not overkill.

I agree. Nor is having a covered stairwell to keep snow and ice off of it.


I think it is quite reasonable, especially since we don't know what the future holds for the station. There are some TOD opportunities around the station and while there currently are not bus transfers, there may be in the future.

[rocketphish]

OC Transpo confident it can offset $14M in extra costs for LRT delay

Jon Willing, Ottawa Citizen
Published on: May 9, 2018 | Last Updated: May 9, 2018 5:42 PM EDT

Delaying the LRT opening until November will require a $14-million increase to OC Transpo’s operating expenses this year, but the transit agency says it can be covered by the savings in the LRT contract.

“The increased operating costs of full regular bus operation until the end of November, the loss of fare revenue resulting from the opening of the (LRT) line in November, and other associated costs … these increased costs will be offset by the reduced maintenance payments and debt repayments to RTG, the energy costs of the line, and other associated savings,” according to a report for the transit commission published Wednesday.

RTG is the Rideau Transit Group, which is building the $2.1-billion Confederation Line.

According to Transpo, $10.8 million in extra costs for running the bus detours until the end of November — an amount plugged into the capital budget — will be offset by the “payments made by RTG under the project agreement.”

The city is negotiating with RTG on the extra costs associated with the delay.

The transit commission will meet next Wednesday to discuss in more detail the financial implications of the LRT delay.

The LRT line was originally scheduled to be turned over to Transpo on May 24. The new handover date is Nov. 2. After that date, Transpo will test the system and get it ready for the public. It’s expected to be open by the end of November.

There’s a planned “overlap period” with a $4.5-million budget, helping Transpo and its customers transition to the LRT era. The transit agency has planned to continue running a parallel bus service for a short period of time when the LRT line opens.

Transpo expects terminating between 421 and 480 positions in the switch to LRT, the report says. The total severance payments will be between $5.5 million and $7 million, but the city has already budgeted for the higher number through its long-range financial forecasting. The projected decrease in positions is lower than the estimates from two years ago, when Transpo said up to 608 positions would be eliminated.

[email protected]
twitter.com/JonathanWilling

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news...-offset-14m-in-extra-costs-for-lrt-delay

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

1) City building is about more than just putting up the most utilitarian structures.

I'm not calling for "utilitarian" structures. I'm calling for less money to be wasted on things that have no bearing on function.

2) Those cost of some architectural flair is not massive. I would bet money that the added cost is not even 10%.

If so that's way too much. Even the art set-aside is too much IMHO.

3) Part of creating a consistent service experience and identity is design.

Yes, and you can have consistent, identity-based design without going overboard on soaring glass vanity swoops and often-dubious art.

[OtrainUser]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

I'm not calling for "utilitarian" structures. I'm calling for less money to be wasted on things that have no bearing on function.



If so that's way too much. Even the art set-aside is too much IMHO.



Yes, and you can have consistent, identity-based design without going overboard on soaring glass vanity swoops and often-dubious art.

Having art at stations have a function, they make the station less dull.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Most cities in democratic countries only put grandiose stations in a few key areas. The rest of the stations are usually pretty mundane.

I can't imagine tourists in Ottawa using more than a few stations: Rideau, Parliament, Lebreton (assuming something gets built there) and maybe Tremblay and Bayview (assuming the airport extension is completed).

This is not really a plea for more lavish stations, but as the system matures along with development alongside it, you'll likely see tourists using outlying stations more since they'll be adjacent to their hotels.

I think this will likely happen at St-Laurent right off the bat as there are several hotels with free parking right across the street from the station.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I think this will likely happen at St-Laurent right off the bat as there are several hotels with free parking right across the street from the station.

If only there was a nice way of walking to the station from them.

[Kitchissippi]

The bidders were given a set budget, and what some people are calling "lavishness" is something RTG threw in. The sloping high roofs aren't as frivolous as one might think, they are part of the passive climate control features, and I can see that the elements and materials (like the widespread use of glass barriers) are so low maintenance you can practically hose the stations down to keep them looking new.

Like, geez, a contractor includes some flair as part of their bundled cost and some conservative-minded curmudgeons think it's too much. This is why it's hard to get nice things in this city. The difference between designing something nice and something ugly isn't necessarily money, it's skill.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

The bidders were given a set budget, and what some people are calling "lavishness" is something RTG threw in. The sloping high roofs aren't as frivolous as one might think, they are part of the passive climate control features, and I can see that the elements and materials (like the widespread use of glass barriers) are so low maintenance you can practically hose the stations down to keep them looking new.

Like, geez, a contractor includes some flair as part of their bundled cost and some conservative-minded curmudgeons think it's too much. This is why it's hard to get nice things in this city. The difference between designing something nice and something ugly isn't necessarily money, it's skill.