CF Pacific Centre Developments

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by Retail-Insider

Four Seasons is vacating its downtown hotel property on January 31, 2020, according to the hotel's GM Martin Sinclair. Curious to see what happens with this real estate -- a tower with retail/restaurant at the base, connected to a downtown mall.

I sincerely hope it remains a hotel, or at least a hotel - office mix. Turning it into a purely residential tower is not a cardinal sin, but would take away a lot of that "downtown" energy.
Also, do you know if Four Seasons plans to build another hotel in Vancouver? If so, any idea of where? As a Canadian hotel chain, surely they would not be leaving Vancouver, would they?
This is interesting. Any information much appreciated. Thank you.

[NewfBC]

Originally Posted by Retail-Insider

Four Seasons is vacating its downtown hotel property on January 31, 2020, according to the hotel's GM Martin Sinclair. Curious to see what happens with this real estate -- a tower with retail/restaurant at the base, connected to a downtown mall.

Has Four Seasons sold this property? They did own it.

I wonder where Bill Gates will stay in Vancouver now?

Ron.

[s211]

Originally Posted by NewfBC

Has Four Seasons sold this property? They did own it.

At most, I think it was a ground lease.

[jollyburger]

Originally Posted by s211

At most, I think it was a ground lease.

Ritz-Carlton?

The landlords want a judge to rule that the Four Seasons Hotel Vancouver is in default of its lease terms – a verdict that would allow them to contract a new hotel management company. Marriott Canada president Don Cleary told Business in Vancouver last month that he would like to bring the Marriott luxury brands Ritz-Carlton and W Hotels and Resorts to Vancouver; a finding in the plaintiffs’ favour might allow him to fulfill that wish.

https://biv.com/article/2017/12/lawsuit-vancouver-four-seasons-highlights-ambiguit

[officedweller]

Since it is above the mall, I can't see it converted to purely residential condos (i.e. pain in the butt for CF to deal with).

However, the Four Season is pretty big for a high end hotel - so would a Ritz Carlton take up all the space?
Shangri-La and Trump are only abut 10 or 12-ish storeys each.
But Sutton Place is big and JW Marriott at the Parq is big too.

Originally Posted by officedweller

Thanks - re ceiling heights.

I'll bet its steel frame though - like the office towers and Eaton's - which might make disassembly more straightforward (?).
Prime site for a high end department store with high end hotel on top (not that Vancouver really needs more high end retail, and assuming Saks doesn't pull out of Canada).

Hopefully this will also mean a reworking of the Georgia & Howe rotunda replacement.

... and no speculation is complete without a view cone analysis...

It would appear that the Four Seasons site may sit in the VIEW SHADOW of Scotia Tower!
(from the 12th & Cambie view cone).
Whether that would give it more height than the neighbouring Residences @ Hotel Georgia would have to be determined.
The site is also squarely within the "Higher Buildings Policy" area.

This diagram is from the 753 Seymour rezoning.

Hmmmm.....


http://rezoning.vancouver.ca/applications/753seymour/index.htm

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by officedweller

Since it is above the mall, I can't see it converted to purely residential condos (i.e. pain in the butt for CF to deal with).

However, the Four Season is pretty big for a high end hotel - so would a Ritz Carlton take up all the space?
Shangri-La and Trump are only abut 10 or 12-ish storeys each.
But Sutton Place is big and JW Marriott at the Parq is big too.

Isn't it also in the condo exclusion zone, put in place after we started losing too many commercial sites in the early 2000s?

[officedweller]

Probably - I can't recall details of that, but there was a minor uproar when The Hudson condos were built (as opposed to an office tower),
and everyone is aware of the proximity/view issues with Jameson House.

[Vin]

I think CF should just let a nice business hotel come take over and renovate it to make it look ultra modern and attractive, but without the trappings and frills of the lux hotels.

For Ritz Carlton and other 4-5 star hotels, they deserve new towers somewhere else, like perhaps on top of a new mall at the Bay parkade held by Holborn? If I were 4 Seasons, I would re-locate there just to spite CF.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by Vin

I think CF should just let a nice business hotel come take over and renovate it to make it look ultra modern and attractive, but without the trappings and frills of the lux hotels.

CF has positioned PC at the high end of the retail market - and sued 4S for not being luxurious enough - so the assumption is that if a new hotel goes in, it will be a luxury hotel, but renos would be expensive (i.e. 4S balked at the cost).

But also remember that Vancouver's 4S was one of the only corporately owned locations - the rest are owned by third parties and managed, I think. So maybe a new hotel would have more financial backing.

[NewfBC]

Originally Posted by officedweller

CF has positioned PC at the high end of the retail market - and sued 4S for not being luxurious enough - so the assumption is that if a new hotel goes in, it will be a luxury hotel, but renos would be expensive (i.e. 4S balked at the cost).

But also remember that Vancouver's 4S was one of the only corporately owned locations - the rest are owned by third parties and managed, I think. So maybe a new hotel would have more financial backing.

More financial backing than Prince Al-Waleed bin Talal and Bill Gates?


Ron.

[BodomReaper]

I just hope something is done about how that stretch of Pacific Centre interfaces with Howe St. - an absolutely dreadful experience at the moment.

[Chikinlittle]

Originally Posted by BodomReaper

I just hope something is done about how that stretch of Pacific Centre interfaces with Howe St. - an absolutely dreadful experience at the moment.

The Granville façade is really no better. The Norstrom renovation was a missed opportunity to activate that stretch.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by NewfBC

More financial backing than Prince Al-Waleed bin Talal and Bill Gates?

Ron.

Depends on what could be negotiated with CF.
CF's lawsuit alleges that Four Seasons doesn't want to invest in improving/maintaining the property to luxury standards.
Four Seasons counters that at the end of the lease term, it's not economically viable to do so, and CF would take a windfall on any leasehold improvements made at the end of the term (esp. if CF brings in a competitor).

Presumably Four Seasons couldn't renegotiate a new long term lease that would justify the expense of renovating the property
or wouldn't spend enough to convince CF to offer a longer term lease extension.

From the downtown thread:

Originally Posted by phesto

Thanks. Seems like a new tower of approx. 500 ft. could potentially be achievable. According to emporis, the existing tower is 305 ft. so a decent height lift, although tearing it down to simply rebuild a new hotel with 40% more height seems less likely.

Maybe in the context of a larger redevelopment of the whole Howe Street frontage of Pacific Centre could work...put a new office tower at the Howe and Dunsmuir corner and reorient the retail towards Georgia with a big entrance plaza and a new 40-storey hotel on top...now that would be something!

On the other hand, CF wasn't particularly ambitious with the Sears redevelopment, so probably shouldn't think too big...

Originally Posted by officedweller

Yeah, the Howe street frontage is the worst side of the mall.
If they do redevelop, you'd expect the City to be all over that.
I've pretty sure it's also a steel frame structure like the rest of Pacific Centre.

Conceivably, CF stripped off the façade of Eatons' blank wall and could do the same here too to add windows. The Howe St. facade has the same marble/terrazzo panels as Eatons had (as well as previously on Granville Street near H&M).
A consistent design plan for Pacific Centre could involve the recladding of the entire Howe St. façade and the gutting of the interior spaces behind, which are largely windowless Four Seasons ballrooms and amenity areas (Harry Rosen is in the upper mall at the north end and the shadowing in that area would probably allow Harry Rosen to have windows without fading the merchandise).

I wonder about a new, smaller, luxury department store space on lower floors with mixed use hotel office above, but that would probably require major demolition to increase ceiling heights for new retail space unless the steel frame could somehow allow conversion of 2 hotel floors to one retail floor with extra bracing?
But then you still need amenity areas for the new hotel, which are usually best suited for a podium. Depending on the business model for the hotel, it doesn't necessarily need large meeting / ballroom areas (think Shangri-La, although both Parq and Trump have big ballrooms), so some of the existing Four Seasons conference areas (which do have high ceilings) could be converted to retail.

Potential vertical expansion would also depend on the ability of the foundation to support any added height.

It would be nice to see a wholesale redevelopment of the Howe St. side of the complex.

[officedweller]

Pic by me today:

[jollyburger]

Before the rotunda was built:



http://searcharchives.vancouver.ca/four-seasons-plaza-791-west-georgia-street

[whatnext]

The most troubling thins is we could lose the hotel rooms altogether. On top of the Empire Landmark, Inn at False Creek, Coast Denman etc., only replaced by a smaller number of much higher end properties. Every level government talks a good game about tourism, but if we keep losing rooms it will wither.

[logan5]

interesting shot with The Exchange building in the background. The facades are going to be almost identical. 1133 Melville is going to end looking like this as well.

[red-paladin]

For those that keep ranting about underground connections to Pacific Centre:

http://dailyhive.com/vancouver/amazon-ol...-redevelopment-vancouver-economic-impact

But above all, Holborn Group also has major plans for the redevelopment of the Hudson’s Bay parkade and adjacent sites on the city block, which is mostly owned by the developer.

In a previous interview with Daily Hive, Holborn Group CEO Joo Kim Tiah said he envisions a “big city” redevelopment on the scale and scope of what you would see in some of the world’s largest cities. There will be ample retail, office space, and residential, and ideally an underground connection to Pacific Centre.

[officedweller]

The ticketing hall of Granville Station is under the roadway of Seymour Street
- so it would be an easy connection to Hudson's Bay (as opposed to Pacific Centre directly).

Nice to hear he is thinking "big" - hope the City allows him to follow through on it.

[s211]

Originally Posted by officedweller

The ticketing hall of Granville Station is under the roadway of Seymour Street
- so it would be an easy connection to Hudson's Bay (as opposed to Pacific Centre directly).

Nice to hear he is thinking "big" - hope the City allows him to follow through on it.

Pretty sure that site is hamstrung with some pretty harsh view cone height limits. At least that's what I've been told by groups that have analyzed the site.