Rural Commuter Rail

[J.OT13]

Low cost transit? LOL

If these suburbs (Clarence-Rockland, Russell Township, Kemptville, Carleton Place...) want to have a local bus service, good on them, but OC Transpo should be the only transit agency allowed to cross the borders to provide commuter transit to the City. And for that, these municipalities should pay x amount of money to OC every year and/or charge a higher fare/monthly pass than that of those who live within the Ottawa city limits.

[acottawa]

It isn't low cost for people in Russel. A transit pass is $250, compared to $116 across the street in Ottawa. The alternative is they drive to a park and ride and pay cash, which is still cheaper than buying a Russel pass and costs OCTranspo a lot more.

[waterloowarrior]

Here is a background report.
http://www.russell.ca/UserFiles/Servers/...nsportation/FinalBackgroundReport_V2.pdf

Russell has 70-75% fare recovery right now, which is apparently the highest in Ontario

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by waterloowarrior

Here is a background report.
http://www.russell.ca/UserFiles/Servers/...nsportation/FinalBackgroundReport_V2.pdf

Russell has 70-75% fare recovery right now, which is apparently the highest in Ontario

Doesn't surprise me.. it's a small scale service (only a few trips a day) that is able to charge a high amount ($250 a month) because it's competing against downtown parking costs. A pretty lucky combination from a fiscal point of ivew.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

This is going to get particularly absurd when Stage 2 opens in Orleans and Rockland transit practically sets up a hub in Orleans, if they don't do one at Blair. If you're an Ottawa resident, you'll be paying more in taxes to give these guys seats while you stand.

You do realize we are talking about Russell transit not Rockland transit? A transfer point east of St. Laurent doesn't make any sense for busses from Russell township. As for Rockland transit, they may not get such a good deal if transfers are being made at Trim Rd.

While $8 per passenger per month might be a bit under priced (especially since the transit agency is saving money from not having to drive downtown), it doesn't cost OC Transpo all that much to provide LRT transport from St. Laurent, Tremblay, or Hurdman to downtown (it's certainly a lot cheaper than providing bus transfers or park and ride lots). While the city certainly doesn't want to encourage people to move outside of city limits, they also don't want those who do to drive and contribute to congestion. Even getting those rural buses off of city streets is of benifit to the city, so it's worthwhile cooperating with the rural transit services.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

If these suburbs (Clarence-Rockland, Russell Township, Kemptville, Carleton Place...) want to have a local bus service, good on them, but OC Transpo should be the only transit agency allowed to cross the borders to provide commuter transit to the City.

I am not aware of any city in Canada that prohibits neighboring transit services from crossing the border into their city or even has the right to do so.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by acottawa

It isn't low cost for people in Russel. A transit pass is $250, compared to $116 across the street in Ottawa. The alternative is they drive to a park and ride and pay cash, which is still cheaper than buying a Russel pass and costs OCTranspo a lot more.

And FYI, Rockland charges $243 for an Adult monthly pass, which is similar to Russel.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by roger1818

I am not aware of any city in Canada that prohibits neighboring transit services from crossing the border into their city or even has the right to do so.

It's something Ottawa would have to negotiate with the suburban communities around us.

I would go as far as proposing a TransLink type transit operator that runds the entire region's public transport network (including Gatineau) but I would be afraid that transit planning would become even more suburban-centric than it already is.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

It's something Ottawa would have to negotiate with the suburban communities around us.

Given that OC Transpo is heavily unionized, and is thus much more expensive to operate than the private operators the rural communities use, the only way this would happen is if the City was willing to offer the service at a significant loss (a cost to Ottawa tax payers).

Before amalgamation, Goulbourn Township did contract express bus service from OC Transpo, but the only way they could make this affordable was by agreeing to let OC Transpo pick up passengers in Kanata before going downtown (and dropping them off on the way back). Local service within Stittsville and to Kanata was contracted to an independent company as OC Transpo couldn't offer a price competitive option. After amalgamation, tried to offer local service to Stittsville for a short period, but it was later dropped as being too expensive. Only recently has it been brought back now that Stittsville has grown to have a population of 33 thousand (2017).

[Allandale25]

For those more familiar with the Ottawa Region than me, does Gatineau's plans involve any of the corridors Moose wants to use?

 http://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news...neau-lrt-city-to-ask-quebec-for-funding/

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by Allandale25

For those more familiar with the Ottawa Region than me, does Gatineau's plans involve any of the corridors Moose wants to use?

 http://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news...neau-lrt-city-to-ask-quebec-for-funding/

No. They're planning to build a new rail corridor towards Aylmer. There wasn't ever anything there that MOOSE was interested in.
(And by rail corridor, I mean that it'll probably be like a streetcar with rails in a road. Yet to be determined for sure.)

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

No. They're planning to build a new rail corridor towards Aylmer. There wasn't ever anything there that MOOSE was interested in.
(And by rail corridor, I mean that it'll probably be like a streetcar with rails in a road. Yet to be determined for sure.)

Agreed, though I susspect they will use the abandoned rail corridor along the river between Rue Belleau and Terrasses De La Chaudière.

[Allandale25]

^ Thanks

[Charles5]

The image linked here is from a study done about a year ago. It's one of several options proposed, and I don't believe they have completely finalized the plan, but option B1 seems to be the preferred solution at the moment (just from gossip I've heard, nothing official). However, currently it seems it would be without the final segment on the east end which crosses the bridge into Ottawa. Rather they seem to be talking about ending it at the Museum of History which is just at the North end of the Bridge.

Information on the complete study and all the scenarios considered can be found here.

A conceptual drawing from a few years ago is here, showing the train at the intersection of St-Joseph and Alexandre-Taché, going on the North side of the UQO (Scenario B vice B1), but it's just a concept drawing from a while back so don't read anything into it.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Charles5

The image linked here is from a study done about a year ago. It's one of several options proposed, and I don't believe they have completely finalized the plan, but option B1 seems to be the preferred solution at the moment (just from gossip I've heard, nothing official). However, currently it seems it would be without the final segment on the east end which crosses the bridge into Ottawa. Rather they seem to be talking about ending it at the Museum of History which is just at the North end of the Bridge.

Information on the complete study and all the scenarios considered can be found here.

A conceptual drawing from a few years ago is here, showing the train at the intersection of St-Joseph and Alexandre-Taché, going on the North side of the UQO (Scenario B vice B1), but it's just a concept drawing from a while back so don't read anything into it.

Thanks for the links. I thought I had seen a study before. I have followed up in the Ottawa Gatineau O-Train Expansion thread.

[Allandale25]

Today is the deadline for the City of Ottawa to respond to the CTA. Have they already responded? Apologies if I missed it.

https://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/cta-orders-cit...ridge-train-ready-by-next-year-1.3807667

The City now has until April 30, 2018 to either explain how it will make the Ottawa River Line and the Prince of Wales Bridge train-ready in 12 months or begin and complete the process of discontinuing the line, which involves trying to sell it and then offering it to the government if no one buys it.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by Allandale25

Today is the deadline for the City of Ottawa to respond to the CTA. Have they already responded? Apologies if I missed it.

https://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/cta-orders-cit...ridge-train-ready-by-next-year-1.3807667

It was posted in the Prince of Wales thread, but the deadline was extended pending the result of the city's federal appeal.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/ottawa-prince-of-wales-bridge-1.4637878?cmp=rss

[Allandale25]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

It was posted in the Prince of Wales thread, but the deadline was extended pending the result of the city's federal appeal.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/ottawa-prince-of-wales-bridge-1.4637878?cmp=rss

Thanks.

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

I was tempted to make a new thread for the following, but decided against it as this thread should cover all aspects of rural commuter rail, and not just the MOOSE plan.

----------

Here's an idea: Perhaps the future of commuter rail in the region should be done through VIA Rail.

We know that VIA is modernizing the fleet and planning high-frequency rail in the Quebec-Windsor Corridor, but perhaps a joint vision from both sides of the river can come together with the Feds to provide a streamlined transprovincial solution to the eventual question of commuter rail in the region.

Just like how the GO Train is a thing in the GTA, a VIA subsidiary should be created for the National Capital Region. VIA already has either ownership or permission from CN and CP to run on the tracks. Other rail ROW is mostly owned by the city.

It would be nearly identical to the MOOSE plan, only operated by a VIA subsidiary and in partnership with the two provinces and cities in question. The rail is still there for a majority of the proposed lines, meaning it shouldn't take terribly long for a pilot project to be up and running.

While lines to Arnprior and Wakefield would be under study/construction, a pilot project could be implemented between Smith's Falls and the Tremblay station, and Casselman and the Tremblay Station. Alternatively, a third line could be implemented that extends as far as Buckingham, QC that terminates at Bayview.

If these pilot projects succeed, then we could see proper investment in double-tracking or even triple-tracking the main "spine" of the Trillium line between 'Mooney's Bay Station' and Bayview, similar to what the final MOOSE plan would propose. This way, the whole region gets a service which helps lower GHG emissions, reduces traffic, and provides a smooth and seamless service between two provinces. This also could help promote tourism and development in communities outside of Ottawa, which we are already seeing but in a poorly implemented way.

The point would be true commuter rail, with few stops and only at core employment, education, and transfer junctions in the cities proper. The infrastructure is there, VIA is going on a "spree," and we currently have a government that could very well jump at the showcasing opportunity and vote-buying while also claiming to look good for the environment and jobs.

[Horus]

Taking the land development revenues out of the MOOSE model would make a similar rail network purely dependent on ridership revenue. I'm not sure how that would be feasible in this area as there are not any large population centres near Ottawa that could or should be reasonably served by commuter rail.

I had posted this some time ago in this thread comparing the proposed MOOSE-serviced centres to some of those served by GO.

Originally Posted by Horus

Just for fun - populations of these centres (mostly from 2011 census data)
MOOSE routes

• Wakefield, QC: 2,000 residents (La Peche municipality 7,619)
• Arnprior, ON: 10,500
• Montebello, QC: 978 (Papineau MRC 22,541)
• Bristol, QC: 1,128 (Pontiac MRC 14,358)
• Smiths Falls, ON: 8,978
• Alexandria, ON: 10,251

GO to/from Toronto:

• Richmond Hill: 185,540
• Lincolnville: 37.628 (whitchurch-stouffville)
• Milton: 84,362
• Oshawa: 161,487 (+Whitby 122,022 + Pickering 88,721 + Ajax 109,600)
• Hamilton: 519,950 (+ Burlington 175,780)
• Allandale Waterfront: 128,430
• Kitchener: 219,153 (+Waterloo 98,780)

I honestly do not see how MOOSE can have any level of justifiable ridership numbers. Only 2 of those places listed (Wakefield, Montebello) have any tourism appeal as well.