Confederation Line (Stage 1) | In Service 1.0

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by PHrenetic

Think they'll pause a bit to finish building more storage space (a month or two) or just keep trucking onto the Phase 2's 38 LRVs ?

I am sure they will keep building them. A large part of the cost savings is that they don't have to layoff all of the workers doing the assembly and then hire and train new workers for the next build.

[bikegypsy]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Watson just tweeted that 31 of the trains are now completed with only 3 more to be assembled.

So it seems that train assembly was on track to meet the original handover date. It was just the tunnel that's late.

Playing the devil's advocate here, doesn't it take a while to test these trains? If I remember correctly, it took more than a year or at least several months to test the Azure trains in Montreal. Every single train set must be tested with a serious number of variables plus the entire line must be tested repeatedly in full rush hour mode. Granted, Alstom will have access to the entire line 24/7 to test all the trains.

[PHrenetic]

Originally Posted by bikegypsy

Playing the devil's advocate here, doesn't it take a while to test these trains? If I remember correctly, it took more than a year or at least several months to test the Azure trains in Montreal. Every single train set must be tested with a serious number of variables plus the entire line must be tested repeatedly in full rush hour mode. Granted, Alstom will have access to the entire line 24/7 to test all the trains.

Good Day.

No devil's advocate required - you are absolutely correct.
But, without an insider kicking in some info on what exactly the C-Line test and certification requirements are,
we have to assume that RTG knows what their timeline for testing is,
and that they are still within their parameters to fulfill that requirement in the additional 3-6 months that they now have.
One advantage that we have on Montreal, is that the Azure trains have to integrate with the older trains and the older control systems already in place and operating.
That is an extra gotcha that we do not have (since we are not combining with the T-Line - basically a separate operation).

EnJoy!

[Richard Eade]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Watson just tweeted that 31 of the trains are now completed with only 3 more to be assembled.

So it seems that train assembly was on track to meet the original handover date. It was just the tunnel that's late.

I think that the Mayor’s phrasing was:
“Ding Ding Ding Ding! We're getting closer and closer to completion! Light rail vehicle 31 is now in production - only 3 more to go!”
(Emphasis, mine)

Which certainly does not mean that 31 vehicles are completed – only that they have now started to build number 31. There is no indication of how long it takes to build one vehicle; how many vehicles are currently in the pipe-line; or even exactly how many of the vehicles have actually been completed and tested.

[Richard Eade]

Originally Posted by PHrenetic

Good Day.

No devil's advocate required - you are absolutely correct.
But, without an insider kicking in some info on what exactly the C-Line test and certification requirements are,
we have to assume that RTG knows what their timeline for testing is,
and that they are still within their parameters to fulfill that requirement in the additional 3-6 months that they now have.
One advantage that we have on Montreal, is that the Azure trains have to integrate with the older trains and the older control systems already in place and operating.
That is an extra gotcha that we do not have (since we are not combining with the T-Line - basically a separate operation).

EnJoy!

The corollary is: The disadvantage that we have is that both the trains and the signaling are new so each will need to be thoroughly tested, individually and together.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Richard Eade

The corollary is: The disadvantage that we have is that both the trains and the signaling are new so each will need to be thoroughly tested, individually and together.

But you don't need all 34 trains to validate the signalling or the design of the trains, so those tests are well under way.

[PHrenetic]

Good Day.

And, as mentioned:

Originally Posted by bikegypsy

.....
Granted, Alstom will have access to the entire line 24/7 to test all the trains.

Not pedantically true, but close enough.

and, Montreal's Azure had to work in and around full daily ops, and some off-hours made available out of maintenance time.

As I said, it depends on the exact parameters of test and certification, one component of which is straight-up sheer hours of operation - running the suckers.

EnJoy!

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by Richard Eade

I think that the Mayor’s phrasing was:
“Ding Ding Ding Ding! We're getting closer and closer to completion! Light rail vehicle 31 is now in production - only 3 more to go!”
(Emphasis, mine)

Which certainly does not mean that 31 vehicles are completed – only that they have now started to build number 31. There is no indication of how long it takes to build one vehicle; how many vehicles are currently in the pipe-line; or even exactly how many of the vehicles have actually been completed and tested.

Oops. Might be my professional background getting in the way here.. as an IT guy, the phrase "in production" means "complete" to me.

[lrt's friend]

I was downtown this afternoon. Rideau Street is still a mess and Rideau station is far from complete. Some major work is still needed.

What is the purpose of the passageway under Hurdman Station? Are they planning to build a road through there?

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

What is the purpose of the passageway under Hurdman Station? Are they planning to build a road through there?

If you're talking about the overpass towards Sanford Fleming, I believe it was left to build a road once future developments are built around Hurdman.

[PHrenetic]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

If you're talking about the overpass towards Sanford Fleming, I believe it was left to build a road once future developments are built around Hurdman.

Good Day.

yup. That one was / is a required pre-condition of NCC acceptance of the plan for the Hurdman segment
- a planning forethought on at least someone's part, no matter if development is 30 weeks or 30 years away.
Meantime I believe a MUP will go in through there.

EnJoy!

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Vixx

Ottawa has its obvious Liberal strongholds but I think the PC's will garner more seats then people think. People all across the province despise Wynne like no one else and I think the June results will show, even in Ottawa.

With that said I do believe that Ottawa in general will be sort of 'forgotten' once the PC's win (quite frankly it would be if any other party forms government, even the Liberals) just because the mandate will be to reverse a ton of god awful Liberal policies implemented over the years. As well as focusing on GTA issues for obvious reasons. We'll likely be on the back burner for awhile.

Doesn't matter who is in power provincially, Ottawa always takes a back seat to the Province of Toronto.

[rocketphish]

Make-or-break testing to begin on Confederation Line
Software behind automated system from same contractor responsible for major delays in Edmonton

Laura Osman · CBC News
Posted: Apr 03, 2018 2:37 PM ET | Last Updated: 3 hours ago



Ottawa's Confederation Line is about to undergo a series of tests that could make or break its Nov. 2 deadline, and transportation manager John Manconi told city councillors he won't be confident about the new LRT system's launch until those tests are passed.

Manconi told the city's finance and economic development committee Tuesday he's not concerned about meeting construction deadlines, but about whether the trains will run properly on the automated system.

"They have to stop in the exact same spot thousands of times a day," Manconi said.

The automated system allows the trains to essentially drive themselves, with an operator in the cab in case of emergencies.

Until now the contractor building the line, Rideau Transit Group (RTG), has only been able to perform limited testing on the software that tells the trains when to stop.
That's because the tracks haven't all been laid.

Manconi told councillors he'll stop worrying when RTG proves the signalling system works.

Ottawa's software is being provided by Thales Canada, the same company that designed the much-maligned automated system for Edmonton's 5-kilometre Metro LRT line.
In that city, the line is now four years behind schedule because the signalling software still doesn't function as advertised.

Ottawa's line is less complex than Edmonton's since it doesn't cross any roads or existing rail lines.
The city is keeping a keen eye on three key milestones that will prove how well the system works, Manconi said.

First, a train needs to pass through the underground tunnel. The track is completed on the westbound side of the tunnel, but only about half has been laid on the eastbound side.

Next, Manconi wants to see three trains run in automated mode at the same time. Eventually all 34 trains will operate on the software.

Finally RTG will need to show the line works from one end to the other. The contractor hopes to finish laying the track this spring so that testing can begin.

The city hopes to put as many kilometres on the trains as possible before the line opens to the public.

If all goes well, the city plans to allow passengers aboard some time in November 2018.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/lrt-confederation-test-automated-system-1.4603033

[1overcosc]

If preliminary connectivity tests are already coming back green, I wouldn't be overly worried. Getting things to talk to each other is usually the source of technical frustration with systems like this.

[roger1818]

Regarding the signalling issues with Edmonton's Metro Line LRT, one news article says:

On Tuesday, Edmonton City Council learned the Metro Line LRT signal system developed by Thales is best suited for above or below-ground mass transit — not a surface-based line.

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/globalnews.c...metro-line-lrt-following-big-reveal/amp/

Since The Confederation Line is fully grade separated, hopefully we won't have the same issues.

Was the 2006 plan going to use this same Thales control system? If so, it sounds like we might have avoided a disaster.

[M00dy]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Regarding the signalling issues with Edmonton's Metro Line LRT, one news article says:


https://www.google.ca/amp/s/globalnews.c...metro-line-lrt-following-big-reveal/amp/

Since The Confederation Line is fully grade separated, hopefully we won't have the same issues.

Was the 2006 plan going to use this same Thales control system? If so, it sounds like we might have avoided a disaster.

As the previous poster said, the Edmonton issue seems more related to use of the Thales system for an at grade system with traffic grade crossings, light controls, etc. The Thales systems have been used in many places. (Vancouver Skytrain for example)

It's been a while since I read into it, but if I recall correctly the issues in Edmonton are more complicated than simply being able to blame Thales.

[kevinbottawa]

The Ottawa Sun article has a few details that aren't in the CBC article.

Automation of trains the top concern as city moves toward LRT launch

Jon Willing
Published: April 3, 2018 Updated: April 3, 2018 7:29 PM EDT

John Manconi, the city’s general manager of transportation, isn’t stressed about LRT stations, tracks and vehicles being constructed by the fall. His focus is on making sure computers can operate a train 12.5 kilometres across the city without a hitch.

Confirming that the train automation works will be a major milestone for the city, but it’s one Manconi says he worries the most about, since there’s complex technology involved.

The “communications-based train control” system is being supplied by Thales Canada. When there are three trains running in automated mode on the eastern portion of the LRT line, there will be high-fives in the corner offices of city hall.

“I’m not worried about the civil (works),” Manconi told the finance and economic development committee on Tuesday. “I’m worried about the testing and commissioning and all those sub-systems talking to each other.”

The committee, which meets monthly, is receiving updates on the $2.1-billion Confederation Line until the LRT system opens.

The Rideau Transit Group has been tested LRT trains on the eastern portion of the Confederation Line. (Photo supplied by the City of Ottawa)The signal systems along the track need to be talking with onboard computers and the control room. Those tests have been going well, Manconi said. The next milestone is running the trains in fully automated mode.

• Video Link

When the Confederation Line opens in November, there will be one operator in the cab of the train making sure the system is operating properly, but the trains will otherwise be running on their own. The onboard computer can be switched to manual mode, but most of the time it will be operating in automated.

Another huge milestone will be running a train through the 2.5-kilometre tunnel. According to Manconi, “within the next little while” workers will push a train on the tracks in the tunnel since the westbound tracks are done.

About 50 per cent of the eastbound track still needs to be installed. Trains have only run between Blair and uOttawa stations, so the city is eager to get a train on the western portion of the LRT line to test infrastructure through to Tunney’s Pasture.

Substantial completion of the LRT line is expected in late summer. The Rideau Transit Group (RTG) has committed to deliver the LRT system to the city by Nov. 2. The city anticipates welcoming passengers by the end of that month.

“We’re actively monitoring (RTG’s) schedule, both from a paper process and also in the field, and the confidence level will grow as we see major milestones being achieved,” Manconi said.

The gussying-up of Queen Street is expected to be done by late summer or early fall, in time for the LRT’s opening day. The street is being transformed into a “showcase” street since it will be used heavily by pedestrians accessing LRT stations.

The city and RTG are still in talks over the city’s extra costs attributed to the delay — the Confederation Line was originally scheduled to open in mid-2018 — and the impact of the sinkhole on Rideau Street in June 2016.

http://ottawasun.com/news/local-news/tra...wcm/f06885c6-d7ac-43ab-ae7f-aafd4fb993fe

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by M00dy

As the previous poster said, the Edmonton issue seems more related to use of the Thales system for an at grade system with traffic grade crossings, light controls, etc. The Thales systems have been used in many places. (Vancouver Skytrain for example)

It's been a while since I read into it, but if I recall correctly the issues in Edmonton are more complicated than simply being able to blame Thales.

My point was that apparently before Edmonton, the Thales system had only been used on grade separated systems, so if the 2006 plan were to use the same system, we could have been suffering from the same issues Edmonton is having (since it was to have trains run on the surface through downtown). Apparently Edmonton are still only able to have 15 minute frequencies on the Metro Line, instead of the 5 minute frequencies planned.

[lrt's friend]

The gussying-up of Queen Street is expected to be done by late summer or early fall, in time for the LRT’s opening day. The street is being transformed into a “showcase” street since it will be used heavily by pedestrians accessing LRT stations.

Good Luck! There is only so much you can do with a street that is far from a showcase street.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Good Luck! There is only so much you can do with a street that is far from a showcase street.

What they've done so far has been welcome. It's less of a drive-thru street now and the widened sidewalks are welcome. It will be nice to have the street free of construction for the first time in four years.