Paradox Hotel (1151 W Georgia) | 188m | 67 Fl | Completed - Page 258

bb1510 · #**5141** Posted **Mar 8, 2018, 11:48 PM**

That's because Holborn cheaped out and didn't install these brushes or mechanisms in the elevators so when you're going up, they 'shake' and 'rumble' incredibly during day to day usage.

Property manager said strata is looking to installing these but they are quite costly at around 10-20k per elevator.

The window bulletin is only when there are high winds.

Been at Shangri La numerous times, both estates and live/work units; no issues with shaking or rumbling whatsoever. Also, the lack of a dedicated freight elevator is a problem (well there is one that serves both residential and hotel but essentially leaves the residential portion with two elevators when a move is in process and during peak hours (when everyone is going to work), sometimes you'll be waiting for ten minutes for the elevator to your floor, which is totally not acceptable for what this project was marketed as imo.

Shangri La has two elevators dedicated for estates (around 40ish units) three for live work, one freight for everything (which can be used when there's no move but smells like trash as it's used for garbage removal).

Also, strata fees aren't that high for a property of this segment; it's at $0.75 psf right now. Shangri La is at around $1.25 psf and there's actually still an ongoing lawsuit with the developer regarding hotel cost sharing. Currently, free EV charging at Trump but I believe you have to pay at Shangri La; same as move ins, free at Trump, couple hundred non refundable at Shangri La - even for a delivery of just one large item and not a full move in.

Do you think part of the reason for this would be how slender the building is vs how much 'fatter' Shangri La is? Not to mention how much more rigid the structure at Shangri La would be given its denser core. Also, Trump has two 'water sloshing tanks' on the roof similar to a tuned mass damper already.

**oops, just read the article and noticed it already mentioned the shaking; apologies for the redundancy**

officedweller · #**5142** Posted **Mar 8, 2018, 11:55 PM**

Googled and found a lot of articles on "stack effect".

Could be exacerbated by operable windows in condo towers versus commercial office towers.

Quote:

Stack Pressure and Airflow Movement in High and Medium Rise buildings

Abstract

This paper presents the result of a numerical simulation of the stack pressure in high and medium rise buildings under cold weather condition. The result shows that there is a movement of air from the bottom to the top of the building and escapes at the top either through open windows, ventilation openings, or other forms of leakage. The rising warm air reduces the pressure in the base of the building, drawing cold air in through either open doors, windows, or other openings and leakage. This stack effect occurs mainly in the core of the building such as stairway and elevator shaft and causes problems with energy loss caused by the airflow, the blocked elevator doors and discomfort due to inflowing of strong outdoor air. The simulation has been carried out for the high rise building in cold climate of Korea, considering three levels of air-tightness of the exterior wall of the building (tight, average and loose), and found to be the major reason of the airflow movement in the building. The effect of the wind speed velocity and direction on the movement of the airflow in the building has been also investigated under extreme cold condition for middle rise building located in China (7 floors) and the result shows that at high wind speed velocity this effect is very significant.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1876610211014603

Quote:

Cutting Stack Effect Down to Size

...
A condition that exists in a tall building when outside temperature is significantly lower than the temperature of the spaces in the building is called stack effect. Stack effect is the phenomenon in which a tall building acts as a chimney in cold weather, with the natural convection of air entering at the lower floors of the building, flowing through the building, and exiting from the upper floors.

The cause of stack effect is the difference in density between the cold, denser air outside the building and the warm, less dense air inside the building. The pressure differential created by stack effect is directly proportional to building height, as well as to the differential between the warm temperature inside the building and the cold temperature
outside the building.
...

Practical Considerations of Stack Effect

The existence of stack effect in tall commercial buildings often presents major problems. The problems most frequently manifest themselves in difficulty getting elevator doors to close and difficulty heating lower levels of the building. The elevator doors’ failure to close properly can be attributed to the pressure differential across the doors, which, in turn, causes the doors to bind in their guideway to the degree that the closing mechanism for the doors does not generate sufficient force to overcome the binding effect.

The heating problems can be attributed to the substantial influx of cold air through the doors at the entrance level and across the outside wall of the building because of the permeability of the wall being higher than the design requirement of the specification of the wall. The heating problem can be so severe as to freeze water in sprinkler-system piping and in cooling coils, if chilled water is not circulated.
...

http://www.hpac.com/heating/cutting-stack-effect-down-size

Quote:

WHY REVOLVING DOORS WERE INVENTED

The pressure is so significant in fact that when skyscrapers were first developed at the turn of the century, people also had to invent revolving doors because you couldn't open the front door due to the stack effect pressure. The cold air was rushing in with so much pressure that it was difficult to push the exit doors open

Unlike most other pressures, the stack effect acts every hour of every cold day, and the pressures generated by the stack effect are significant.

Leaky buildings consume tremendous amounts of energy. Air leaks can contribute to condensation, compromising the quality of the indoor air. For high-rise residential buildings in cold weather, that isn't the worst-case scenario - it's the normal scenario

http://www.tlj-eng.com/news/53-stack-effect-or-chimney-effect-2.html

Quote:

(1) Elevator doors unable to close as a result of the winter stack effect-air rushing into the shaft from the lobby entrances.
The doors will have to be forcefully closed by firefighters to begin Phase 2 operation. Lobby doorways must be closely controlled
and supervised. (Photos by author.)

http://www.fireengineering.com/articles/...ement-on-high-rise-commercial-fires.html

jlousa · #**5143** Posted **Mar 9, 2018, 3:05 AM**

I have no idea who they interviewed but this is a very common issue and is experienced at many towers downtown. Normally having a window open won't cause an issue. But if you are moving and have your front door open and a window open that will cause issues as you get above about 25 floors. This is also an issue on the subpenthouse/penthouses levels where the elevetors open straight onto the floor.

whatnext · #**5144** Posted **Mar 9, 2018, 7:25 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by jlousa

I have no idea who they interviewed but this is a very common issue and is experienced at many towers downtown. Normally having a window open won't cause an issue. But if you are moving and have your front door open and a window open that will cause issues as you get above about 25 floors. This is also an issue on the subpenthouse/penthouses levels where the elevetors open straight onto the floor.

Perhaps some of the problem is related to the issue bb1510 mentioned upthread:

Quote:

Originally Posted by bb1510

My parents say they will be moving out and leasing out the place - don't like it at all.

Here's what they had to say:

Nightclub is extremely tacky and out of place; clientele and ambiance cheapens the overall feel.

Lobby champagne lounge is too loud and again, feels tacky. Would be much nicer if it was an afternoon tea lounge and have an elegant feel.

Residents are not well mannered (and my parents are of the same ethnicity). Lots of yelling, not a lot of chatter or greetings to each other, and take the staff for granted. Some people think they have to pay for AC (it's included in strata fees) so they leave their suite doors open.

Units have terrible sound isolation; you can hear the elevator dings in your living room.

There are rumours that there are tenants who are prostitutes in this building as well as one using their unit as a grow op; again rumours.

(bold mine)

Spr0ckets · #**5145** Posted **Mar 9, 2018, 9:59 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

I'm sure the maintenance fees are set per allotment, like every other strata. The rate per sf is just incredibly high.

As for the elevators, what a circus. Aren't buildings internally pressurized anyway? You're supposed to leave your front door closed so that system can work. What would your outer windows have to do with the internal elevator core?

If your front door leading to the elevator corridor is open as well, you create an an uncontrolled artificial airshaft leading right into the elevator core from the outside of the building. (whenever the Elevator opens on your floor, that is)

This is not a good thing because of the air temperature and pressure differential between the outside of the building - especially for really high floors - and the elevator shaft at those same levels.

Warmer air in the elevator shaft tries to get out of the building through those openings, while colder air tries to rush in to replace it, both from the open window and doors, as well as from the entrance lobby on the ground floor...and here's the important part - THROUGH the same shaft beneath the elevator cabin.
This creates a 'bouyancy' effect that is not great for elevator operation in addition to moisture intrusion to the elevator mechanics.

You end up with the elevator fighting against this sudden air pressure, which isn't just less than ideal, but for really tall buildings, also considerable.

EDIT : I see someone else posted a link to an article talking about the Stack/Chimney Effect.
That has a more elaborate explanation, but this is a common 'issue' or characteristic of tall building design.
It's not so much a problem per se as it is an inevitability of tall building design that you can't engineer your way (completely) around.
Physics, Thermodynamics, Airflow dynamics.

Spr0ckets · #**5146** Posted **Mar 9, 2018, 10:02 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by officedweller

I suppose that if Vancouver had more tall buildings, the issue would be more widely known.

It's not so much an 'issue' as it is a commonality of Tall Building design, and it's been around for as long as skyscrapers and high-rises have existed (along with elevator shafts).

It's like the swaying effect you get in really tall skyscrapers due to strong winds.
It happens, and there's very little you can do about it from a design perspective (actually, these days they have dampeners that reduce the effect, but don't necessarily eliminate it).

bb1510 · #**5147** Posted **Mar 10, 2018, 2:22 AM**

Would it also be due to the fact that they didn't install the mechanism that makes the elevators more stable?

Klazu · #**5148** Posted **Jun 7, 2018, 4:50 AM**

red-paladin · #**5149** Posted **Jun 7, 2018, 5:02 AM**

Great picture!

idunno · #**5150** Posted **Jun 7, 2018, 4:13 PM**

I look at this thing from my office every day, and I'm baffled to see that it looks like the 2-level penthouses are still incomplete.

Didn't Joo Tim Kiah himself purchase one?

240glt · #**5151** Posted **Jun 7, 2018, 7:04 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spr0ckets

If your front door leading to the elevator corridor is open as well, you create an an uncontrolled artificial airshaft leading right into the elevator core from the outside of the building. (whenever the Elevator opens on your floor, that is)

This is not a good thing because of the air temperature and pressure differential between the outside of the building - especially for really high floors - and the elevator shaft at those same levels.

Warmer air in the elevator shaft tries to get out of the building through those openings, while colder air tries to rush in to replace it, both from the open window and doors, as well as from the entrance lobby on the ground floor...and here's the important part - THROUGH the same shaft beneath the elevator cabin.
This creates a 'bouyancy' effect that is not great for elevator operation in addition to moisture intrusion to the elevator mechanics.

You end up with the elevator fighting against this sudden air pressure, which isn't just less than ideal, but for really tall buildings, also considerable.

EDIT : I see someone else posted a link to an article talking about the Stack/Chimney Effect.
That has a more elaborate explanation, but this is a common 'issue' or characteristic of tall building design.
It's not so much a problem per se as it is an inevitability of tall building design that you can't engineer your way (completely) around.
Physics, Thermodynamics, Airflow dynamics.

I'm a little surprised to hear the building is stacking that badly. My old towers had issues but there were a lot of air leaks at the top of the house, my new tower is nice & tight and barely stacks at all, and only barely becomes an issue below -20

I can see the building pressurization being a problem, but it always is in residential buildings. I wonder if the higher %RH in the Vancouver area causes denser air to cause more issues.

excel · #**5152** Posted **Jun 7, 2018, 7:26 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by idunno

I look at this thing from my office every day, and I'm baffled to see that it looks like the 2-level penthouses are still incomplete.

Didn't Joo Tim Kiah himself purchase one?

Are you under the impression he bought it to live in?

rofina · #**5153** Posted **Jun 7, 2018, 7:54 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by excel

Are you under the impression he bought it to live in?

Probably just easier to leave it gutted, since any one who can afford a unit of that calibre will likely gut it when they buy anyway.

I know of a certain late 90's downtown penthouse that has been gutted 5 times - with the longest occupancy period being 6 consecutive months.

Needless to say the owners did not much care for having that unit in their building.

truenorth44 · #**5154** Posted **Jun 8, 2018, 4:31 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by rofina

Probably just easier to leave it gutted, since any one who can afford a unit of that calibre will likely gut it when they buy anyway.

I know of a certain late 90's downtown penthouse that has been gutted 5 times - with the longest occupancy period being 6 consecutive months.

Needless to say the owners did not much care for having that unit in their building.

Hmm, how about instead of having a big empty space up there that sits vacant or gets renovated every so often creating a mess for other residents, just put a vault in the mechanical space, with a bunch of nice photos pulled from Architectural Digest, and let the investors buy and sell the vault as often as they please!

nds88 · #**5155** Posted **Jun 8, 2018, 6:02 PM**

If it's still an empty shell, would the occupancy permits be issued? Could be a way to dodge the ridiculous empty homes tax.

bb1510 · #**5156** Posted **Jun 10, 2018, 5:21 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by idunno

I look at this thing from my office every day, and I'm baffled to see that it looks like the 2-level penthouses are still incomplete.

Didn't Joo Tim Kiah himself purchase one?

Technically no as they're still all owned by West Georgia Holdings which belongs to Holborn. From what I hear, he intends to keep PH1 for himself which is the furthest west unit with unobstructed views from English Bay to Coal Harbour and not sell it. What's weird is that for the unit directory listed on the 68th floor and on the doors of the unit, PH1 is the largest and west-most unit while PH3 is the smallest which faces Shangri La; however, on BC Assessment, the units are swapped. In this case, which one is correct or will it be amended on BC Assessment.

They're still all under construction. From the renders I've seen, they're higher end than the standard finishes in the other units but still not to the calibre of what a penthouse asking these prices should be. Purchasers would still rip out the finishes anyways so it really makes no sense to my why they're spending more than what they need.

The strata also recently upgraded and installed new rollers in the elevators so they should be more stable.

Some more renovated units:

Elite Collection 02 + 03 Combination unit ~3300 sq ft 2 Bed (62nd floor):
http://kreelcreative.com/experience/coal-harbour-sub-penthouse-vancouver-bc/
http://cemilesconstruction.com/portfolio-items/downtown-custom-residence-three?portfolioID=4

Elite Collection 03 Unit ~2100 sq ft 3 Bed:
http://spaceharmony.ca/portfolio/masculine-elegance-coal-harbour/

Exclusive Collection 01 unit ~860 sq ft 1 Bed + Den (58th floor; you can definitely notice the 9'7" ceilings in this unit):
http://www.zwadadesign.com/portfolio-item/west-georgia-vancouver/

Executive 05 Unit ~1300 sq ft 2 Bed:
https://www.klondikecontracting.com/project/trump-tower/