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  #1381  
Old Posted Feb 27, 2018, 8:28 PM
Norman Bates Norman Bates is offline
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Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post
Not necessarily. If you look at a picture of the Rapibus bridge over the Gatineau River (which is on the same rail line) they raised the deck to be level with the rails, leaving a gap for the flanges and then filled that gap with rubber strips. That way if a railway wished to use the bridge, they could just remove those strips quickly and easily. Admittedly if that happened, they would have to close the bridge to pedestrians and cyclists.





I don't see why it absolutely must remain, but I do agree that it most likely will and we should find a good use for it.

If the NCC wants to spend money to implement their plan/goal/wish, by all means let them. They don't need to own the bridge for that to happen. The city tried to get financial support a few years back for such a project and no one was interested at the time. Having said that, if the NCC were to take ownership, it would get the city off the hook for any future costs if(when?) the political climate changes and external funding dries up. The problem is that while the NCC talks a good talk, getting them to put money where their mouth is, is always an issue. Just look how long it took them to do anything with LeBreton Flats.
Yes, but my question is: where is all that LeBreton money the NCC will receive going to go?

Is it the CRF - or can the NCC plow it into something like the PoW bridge?

Last edited by Norman Bates; Feb 27, 2018 at 8:52 PM.
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  #1382  
Old Posted Feb 27, 2018, 9:04 PM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
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Yes, but my question is: where is all that LeBreton money the NCC will receive going to go?

Is it the CRF - or can the NCC plow it into something like the PoW bridge?
They will spend it all on the environmental clean up.
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  #1383  
Old Posted Feb 27, 2018, 9:06 PM
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roger1818 roger1818 is offline
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Originally Posted by Norman Bates View Post
Yes, but my question is: where is all that LeBreton money the NCC will receive going to go?
I'm not sure, but we will have to see how much money they actually receive. From what I gather, the RendezVous LeBreton Group basically has a blank cheque from the NCC for soil remediation (to be subtracted off of the purchase price).

Last edited by roger1818; Feb 27, 2018 at 9:25 PM.
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  #1384  
Old Posted Feb 27, 2018, 9:13 PM
acottawa acottawa is offline
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Originally Posted by steveintoronto View Post
You exactly make the point. What you consider a plan, and what the plan is are obviously two different realities.
"NATIONAL CAPITAL COMMISSION THE PLAN FOR CANADA’S CAPITAL, 2017 TO 2067" I take for what it is.

Absolutely true, there's no set budget for it at this time. There's no set budget for many plans we have and need.

Logic alone dictates the bridge must remain, and since it must (the costs to do otherwise would be horrendous, both fiscally and to the goals of the NCC visually and functionally) a way will be found to attain federal ownership and implement their vision as detailed in their "plan".
Some organizations treat planning in a more concrete way. I think the NCC is the only federal government organization that puts out 50 year plans. You're talking about an organization that sat on Lebreton for 60 years without doing anything about it.
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  #1385  
Old Posted Feb 27, 2018, 9:24 PM
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You're talking about an organization that sat on Lebreton for 60 years without doing anything about it.
Yup. When they bought the land and demolished all the buildings, the plan was to convert it to government offices. Obviously for a variety of reasons that plan didn't ever happen.
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  #1386  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2018, 2:56 AM
Norman Bates Norman Bates is offline
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Yup. When they bought the land and demolished all the buildings, the plan was to convert it to government offices. Obviously for a variety of reasons that plan didn't ever happen.
Yes, “CFHQ” was slated to go there.
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  #1387  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2018, 6:07 PM
MarkR MarkR is offline
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Not every truss bridge is a rail bridge. I don't think there was ever rail service to Porter island. Besides, it was replaced with a new bridge only 100m away.
Indeed, there was never any rail service there. The nearest line was the old Bytown-Prescott route (now Vanier Parkway) on the other side of the Rideau River.
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  #1388  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2018, 6:45 PM
MarkR MarkR is offline
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That decision was made by the un-elected Jacques Gréber of the NCC who seemed to have a hatred for trains and instead thought that Ottawa would be much more beautiful if it was completely paved. I am not sure if the city or regional governments agreed or not, but NCC decisions overrule policies of elected officials, so it doesn't matter (which explains the disdain many from Ottawa have towards the NCC).
While in retrospect the decisions back then around rail now seem very short-sighted, at the time the City was also staring down huge costs in maintaining its aging streetcar fleet. Combine that with declining passenger rail demand and it looks like it was pretty easy for Greber to convince everyone to greatly reduce rail. No more stinky train yards, no more kids getting maimed / killed when playing along the right-of-ways, no more 'unsightly' overhead streetcar power lines, etc.

My parents lived in Ottawa in the early 1950's, and my dad used to walk to work and had to cross the old Canada-Atlantic rail line (now the Queensway route). He said the problem back then was that the plethora of railway lines, some of which were put in place before Ottawa had outgrown its Bytown roots, really plugged up commuter traffic. (See: https://churcher.crcml.org/Map/ottawamap.html) A freight train along the Canada-Atlantic had to of course reduce speed as it proceeded through an urban area, so it slowly chugged along while everyone sat in the cars and waited (though there were 'subways' at Bank, Preston and Elgin to mitigate this somewhat). Note too that while the old CP line that became the Trillium line was kept, it was trenched, along with the old Scott St. CP route when it was converted to busway, just to minimize road congestion. (Which now handily allows us to not have to trench that route as it gets converted back to rail.)

I would really like to see the Prince of Wales Bridge used for rail, as well as for ped. / cycle. I sometimes cycle the bike path on the Quebec side out to the Aylmer Marina, and the adjacent old rail right-of-way seems to mostly be intact. And the bike path actually uses it for the last it before the marina. Back X amount of years ago there was much noise on the Ottawa side when it was proposed to expand the Champlain Bridge. The expansion seemed to be mainly for the benefit of Quebec commuters, and I always thought "but there's an old rail line that could be used for those folks going right through their community...".
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  #1389  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2018, 7:11 PM
johnfowler johnfowler is offline
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Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post
If you look at a picture of the Rapibus bridge over the Gatineau River (which is on the same rail line) they raised the deck to be level with the rails, leaving a gap for the flanges and then filled that gap with rubber strips. That way if a railway wished to use the bridge, they could just remove those strips quickly and easily. Admittedly if that happened, they would have to close the bridge to pedestrians and cyclists.
The rubber strips are a form of displaceable enclosed flangeway gap fillers and remain in place if a train needed to cross the bridge. Here's a photo from the Transportation Safety Board of Canada's website:

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  #1390  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2018, 7:49 PM
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The rubber strips are a form of displaceable enclosed flangeway gap fillers and remain in place if a train needed to cross the bridge. Here's a photo from the Transportation Safety Board of Canada's website:
That's nice to know. I wasn't aware of that. Even more reason why the tracks need not be removed to use it as a MUP. Having said that, if trains started to use it, you would probably have to close the MUP, or cane-lever one to the side.
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  #1391  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2018, 12:06 AM
steveintoronto steveintoronto is offline
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Agreed on all points save for provisos.

There's little doubt that the Transportation Act and regulatory functions contained therein need reformation.

What the Competition Bureau is focused on, however, is freight. Grain producers and shippers especially have abject concerns, not to mention the demise of the Wheat Board has made for many complications, not least the Hudson Bay Railway and Omnitrax.

As to why successive governments have dragged their heels on reformation is a good topic for discussion. I do, however, with some serious confidentiality breaches on the part of the CT Agency, see a more pro-active stance from the Agency's decisions of late.

As an aside to our present focus on the PoW Bridge, reformation starts at the top of the Ministry in terms of decisions even within the present framework. And that's going to be essential for the "407 By-Pass" greatly needed for GTHA.

The National Capital Act had/has powers that the GTHA can only dream of being enacted.
It may seem a bit remote to this string, but we're about to see a test of how and how far the Feds are going to act on the grain issue: (this is a CP wire story, but I choose the Winnipeg Free Press for the reader comments there)
Quote:
Grain farmers want action on railway bottleneck as planting season approaches

[...]
The grain crisis four years ago saw the then-Conservative government order the biggest rail lines to double the amount of grain being moved or face penalties as high as $100,000 a week.

On Thursday, Opposition MPs pushed the government to act before the House of Commons begins a two-week break next week.

John Barlow, a Conservative agriculture critic, called the rail car backlog a crisis.

"If we wait any longer, it's going to be much too late for our producers to get their goods to market," he told reporters.

Barlow was flanked by NDP MP Alistair MacGregor, who echoed his colleague's call for urgent action.

"This is an issue that is of the utmost seriousness and it demands action across party lines," he said, adding that Opposition politicians pushed the government without success to separate the grain transportation measures, which are widely supported, from the rest of the omnibus bill.
[...]
https://www.winnipegfreepress.com/busine...fix-to-railway-bottleneck-475554513.html

As that relates the CT Agency and their *practical* ability to enforce action (as opposed to legal jurisdiction to do so), this makes interesting reading:

Decision No. 336-R-2016
November 1, 2016
Quote:
November 1, 2016
DETERMINATION by the Canadian Transportation Agency (Agency) on whether the Canadian National Railway Company’s (CN) traffic destined to Thornton Yard, Vancouver Intermodal Terminals (VIT) and traffic forwarded to the Southern Railway of British Columbia (SRY) at New Westminster is an eligible movement under the Maximum Revenue Entitlement (MRE) program.

[...]

CONCLUSION

[...]
[48] The Agency will treat the identified traffic for the 2015-2016 and future MRE determinations consistent with its findings in this Determination.
https://otc-cta.gc.ca/eng/ruling/336-r-2016

Although many posters may differ on the PoW CTA determinations, I suspect there'll be a test of their jurisdiction before the OC-Transpo/City of Ottawa case has 'its day in court'. Although the Opposition is pushing for the Transportation Act Reform Bill, faster action can be had by Ministerial Order or an emergency ruling by the CTA using existing legislation.
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  #1392  
Old Posted Mar 4, 2018, 6:05 PM
acottawa acottawa is offline
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I keep seeing commercials for Dragon's Den auditions. This seems like the kind of initiative the producers would like.
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  #1393  
Old Posted Mar 4, 2018, 6:16 PM
steveintoronto steveintoronto is offline
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I keep seeing commercials for Dragon's Den auditions. This seems like the kind of initiative the producers would like.
That's a good part Rorschach, as the ads posted on most sites like this are tailored to you from your previous internet viewing habits. Each poster will see different ads.
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  #1394  
Old Posted Mar 4, 2018, 6:38 PM
acottawa acottawa is offline
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That's a good part Rorschach, as the ads posted on most sites like this are tailored to you from your previous internet viewing habits. Each poster will see different ads.
No, I meant TV ads.
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  #1395  
Old Posted Mar 4, 2018, 8:56 PM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is online now
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Moose and the mention of Dragon's Den reminds me of this lady:

http://www.cbc.ca/dragonsden/pitches/platform-technology

Too bad I can't find the video. Crazy lady thought she could improve Yonge/Bloor with pax flow control.

And now she's taken the crazy on a roadshow:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFhTsfOHIL8

I will never understand what it is with government projects that has people thinking they know more than professionals. I see the same stuff with a lot of defence projects. "Canada should buy .... because I saw something on blog somewhere or I read it on wikipedia." The ignorance, and confidence in that ignorance, dampens my hope for humanity everyday.
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  #1396  
Old Posted Mar 4, 2018, 8:58 PM
Norman Bates Norman Bates is offline
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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
Moose and the mention of Dragon's Den reminds me of this lady:

http://www.cbc.ca/dragonsden/pitches/platform-technology

Too bad I can't find the video. Crazy lady thought she could improve Yonge/Bloor with pax flow control.

And now she's taken the crazy on a roadshow:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFhTsfOHIL8

I will never understand what it is with government projects that has people thinking they know more than professionals. I see the same stuff with a lot of defence projects. "Canada should buy .... because I saw something on blog somewhere or I read it on wikipedia." The ignorance, and confidence in that ignorance, dampens my hope for humanity everyday.
One word: Phoenix

Two words: Ross Rifle
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  #1397  
Old Posted Mar 4, 2018, 9:01 PM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is online now
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Originally Posted by Norman Bates View Post
One word: Phoenix

Two words: Ross Rifle
Exceptions prove the rule?

Let's have your next home inspector or contractor be a guy who decided to learn it by watching a few youtube videos.

How would you feel about an oncologist with no degree who claims they simply no better than the rest?

It's funny how we'll all insist on professionals in our personal lives but yet think the government should consider every kook who walks in the front door because some government project (out of the hundreds undertaken annually) went wrong years ago.
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  #1398  
Old Posted Mar 4, 2018, 10:00 PM
acottawa acottawa is offline
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I think the senior ranks of governments are increasingly dominated by yes men and yes women who tend to disregard or gloss over problems associated with a project or initiative.

Yes Prime Minister, this totally untested pay system is ready to go.

Yes Prime Minister, you won't look like a complete jackass taking selfies all over India wearing wedding clothes.

So there may be experts somewhere in the system that have the relevant information, but they are ignored, which leads to an erosion of public confidence.

Last edited by acottawa; Mar 4, 2018 at 10:01 PM. Reason: Typo
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  #1399  
Old Posted Mar 5, 2018, 12:07 AM
Norman Bates Norman Bates is offline
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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
Exceptions prove the rule?

Let's have your next home inspector or contractor be a guy who decided to learn it by watching a few youtube videos.

How would you feel about an oncologist with no degree who claims they simply no better than the rest?

It's funny how we'll all insist on professionals in our personal lives but yet think the government should consider every kook who walks in the front door because some government project (out of the hundreds undertaken annually) went wrong years ago.
Yes, for the masses.

You stated that you didn’t understand why people want what they want - and disregard reasoned decisions agonized over for years by overly qualified professionals.

I gave you two easy examples of bad decisions that the masses will hold up as proof of why the system that you are a part of has failed in spectacularly costly ways.

Most people are unable to make rational decisions on their most important and costly things in life: spouse, place of residence, even automobile. Look no further than the divorce rate or used car lot for evidence.

This is how completely unqualified people ascend to high political office - and then stay in office - by obfuscation and pandering to their single-issue bases.

Do you really think that Diefenbaker scrapped the Arrow based on a rational decision? But we bought those dud submarines from the Brits based on a rational decision. “No ‘ellicopter, Chrétien.” Won an election. But cost many lives and billions of dollars.

The knife cuts both ways. And while I’m wholly and completely on your side of the argument, I’ve been out of the game long enough to start to see what the masses see.

Last edited by Norman Bates; Mar 5, 2018 at 12:52 AM.
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  #1400  
Old Posted Mar 5, 2018, 12:30 AM
Norman Bates Norman Bates is offline
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Originally Posted by acottawa View Post
I think the senior ranks of governments are increasingly dominated by yes men and yes women who tend to disregard or gloss over problems associated with a project or initiative.

Yes Prime Minister, this totally untested pay system is ready to go.

Yes Prime Minister, you won't look like a complete jackass taking selfies all over India wearing wedding clothes.

So there may be experts somewhere in the system that have the relevant information, but they are ignored, which leads to an erosion of public confidence.
From my perspective this problem was started when EX and DM at risk pay got linked to delivering on specific projects. So it effectively turned senior management into a kind of commission salesperson. You eat what you kill. Albeit with a healthy draw.

Don’t deliver on your projects and get punted - or worse - labelled a non-performer.

This private sector-lite approach has its benefits. Just like any decision does. But it has its unexpected consequences. Phoenix is an example of this approach reaching its logically greatest dysfunction. After repeated annual cycles of the review committee leading to an almost addiction feedback loop: ‘just give me some more of that at risk pay.’

So for the players on Phoenix it became more important to deliver on a project that was doomed to fail, and be recognized for delivering that failed project - than to not deliver on a faulty project at all, and die on the altar of asking for $1 billion and five more years to get it right... Ask yourself: What deputy in this town would sign off on an MC asking for that?

Last edited by Norman Bates; Mar 5, 2018 at 12:54 AM.
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