Chief William Commanda Bridge (former Prince of Wales Bridge)

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

May save STO some dough but provides a horrible rider experience.

What would be horrible about it?

[Acajack]

I have a couple of people I know (very close friends) who take the STO Tunney's routes along the Rapibus every day. They take a local route from their neighbourhood to the Rapibus and then it's a direct route to Tunney's with no transfers.

Also, if you work in the northern part of Tunney's (Jeanne Mance, Brooke Claxton, etc.) it's almost 1 km or a 10 minute walk to the new O-Train station. Whereas the STO routes go through the complex and drop them off close to the door.

So making these people transfer a second time to the O-Train at Bayview will not be an improvement for them.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

May save STO some dough but provides a horrible rider experience. I would presume most of those Gatineau commuters are bound for downtown Ottawa. You'll now force them to transfer at Bayview, instead of being able to get off and walk to their final destination..

So it is horrible for Gatineau riders to transfer at Bayview but fine for Barrhaven and Kanata/Stittsville riders to transfer at Tunnies Pasture?[/QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

The Confederation Line is being built for almost double the capacity of the current demand.

Where are you getting that? I haven't heard anything official but Albert and Slater are at capacity right now and it has been calculated that capacity is over 10,000 pphpd.

Even with the Trillium line junction I doubt the load at Bayview will be that much different than Hurdman, it might even be more balanced with close to an equal amount transferring to and from either line.

Do you have any statistics to indicate that more people travel to/from Orleans and other points east than do from Barrhaven, Kanata and other points west?

Turning the Rapibus corridor and Trillium Line into one continuous rail service makes little sense to me, the demand on the Gatineau side is very different from the Ottawa side of the line. It's better to keep them separate to be adjustable to the different needs

If it remains largely single track, the only way to increase capacity is to increase the length of the trains and having trains that are too long for certain sections isn't that expensive.

If they double track the entire line and are thus able to increase the frequency to increase capacity, they could have some trains turn around at Bayview if one side of the river needs more capacity than the other.

Originally Posted by Acajack

They already thought of UOttawa anyway, which is the main destination for Gatineau riders out of the three: When the Confederation Line enters service the Ottawa-bound Rapibus routes will terminate a stone's throw away from Tabaret Hall (Besserer/Waller), not at Lyon.

As the map below shows, fewer than half of the routes will run to Besserer/Waller). The remainder will go no further than Bank St. Also, Albert and Slater Streets will likely be slower for buses once the bus lanes are removed.

As for Tunney's as mentioned earlier STO already has three routes that go there across the Champlain - with no transfers in Ottawa once you're on them.

If they still wanted to provide bus service to Tunnies Pasture, route 18 could be re-routed to use the POW bridge to save the detour to the Champlain Bridge. This would not only save time for the riders and money for STO. Routes 28 and 58 could remain on the Champlain bridge.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by roger1818

As the map below shows, fewer than half of the routes will run to Besserer/Waller). The remainder will go no further than Bank St. Also, Albert and Slater Streets will likely be slower for buses once the bus lanes are removed.



.

The Rapibus trunk routes which are 200-300-400 all go as far Besserer-Waller though, as shown. These are the most high-frequency routes by far with the highest number of riders.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by roger1818

If they still wanted to provide bus service to Tunnies Pasture, route 18 could be re-routed to use the POW bridge to save the detour to the Champlain Bridge. This would not only save time for the riders and money for STO. Routes 28 and 58 could remain on the Champlain bridge.

That's a lot of engineering work for a fairly minimal benefit.

(I realize that BRT on PoW wouldn't be just for route 18, but still - it doesn't seem that beneficial overall, either for Gatineau people going to Ottawa CBD or for people going to Tunney's.)

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Acajack

The Rapibus trunk routes which are 200-300-400 all go as far Besserer-Waller though, as shown. These are the most high-frequency routes by far with the highest number of riders.

True.

I do find it interesting that route 300 is being rerouted to cross the Portage Bridge instead of the Macdonald-Cartier Bridge. I assume it will run down Maisonneuve?

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Acajack

So making these people transfer a second time to the O-Train at Bayview will not be an improvement for them.

Why would they be forced to transfer a second time?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by roger1818

True.

I do find it interesting that route 300 is being rerouted to cross the Portage Bridge instead of the Macdonald-Cartier Bridge. I assume it will run down Maisonneuve?

I suppose it will be Maisonneuve/Allumettières.

I would welcome this change. The 300 is the reverse (non-peak) direction route so goes from Ottawa to Gatineau in the AM, and from Gatineau to Ottawa in the PM.

The way it's configured when it avoids the Rapibus corridor for some segments (and uses the autoroutes and the M-C bridge), it makes for some occasional weird service gaps along the Rapibus corridor itself at certain times of the day.

I've occasionally tried to travel into Hull from the old Gatineau sector in the late afternoon, and even if I am starting from a Rapibus station (like Les Promenades) and going to central Hull, Planibus sends me totally off the Rapibus and onto some milk runs, as there is no good Rapibus routing due to the way the 300 is set up.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

Why would they be forced to transfer a second time?

Local route to Rapibus station

First transfer - to Rapibus line that crosses the PoW to Bayview

Second transfer - to Confederation Line westbound towards Tunney's

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Local route to Rapibus station

First transfer - to Rapibus line that crosses the PoW to Bayview

Second transfer - to Confederation Line westbound towards Tunney's

Pardon my ignorance, but does STO not have the equivalent of OC Transpos express (or now named Connexion) routes? If not, why are there so many different routes heading into Ottawa?

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

What would be horrible about it?

An added transfer and longer travel time is a horrible experience. Directing most inbound Gatineau commuters to Bayview when most of them aren't bound for a destination near Bayview makes no sense.

Originally Posted by roger1818

So it is horrible for Gatineau riders to transfer at Bayview but fine for Barrhaven and Kanata/Stittsville riders to transfer at Tunnies Pasture?

The transfer at Tunney's is not permanent. Nobody from Barrhaven or Kanata or Stittsville will be transferring at Tunney's after 2023. You are comparing the effects of a temporary situation for OC Transpo riders from the west and southwest, against a proposed permanent change for STO riders.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

An added transfer and longer travel time is a horrible experience. Directing most inbound Gatineau commuters to Bayview when most of them aren't bound for a destination near Bayview makes no sense.

Added transfer? For whom, where and why?

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

Depends on your destination. If it's uOttawa, Tunney's, Confed heights/Carleton or anywhere else on the O-Train lines other than downtown it's a far better experience than being dropped off at Lyon.

It's an even better experience to stay on the bus and get dropped off within walking distance of your destination (like UOttawa for example).

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

I can't even understand how being dropped off at Bayview with every direction of the O-Train network at your disposal could be construed as "a horrible rider experience."

Because most riders inbound from Gatineau don't have a destination on Trillium Line as their final destination. If you are bound for the core, being dropped off at Bayview is significantly west of where you want to be. And in your proposal that would be the majority of inbound riders from Gatineau.

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

You'd be shifting far more of the cost if the Trillium line was extended over. In fact, converting the PoW to a 2-lane BRT would place the operating cost of the crossing on STO but at the same time reduce their cost.

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

Turning the Rapibus corridor and Trillium Line into one continuous rail service makes little sense to me, the demand on the Gatineau side is very different from the Ottawa side of the line. It's better to keep them separate to be adjustable to the different needs.

You're right. Posted too hastily. I was thinking in terms of what would save a rider an unnecessary transfer. Extending the Rapibus across the POW to Bayview would work as well. However, I still doubt that most STO users would want to get off and transfer there. They'll want to stay on the bus through the core and walk to their final destination instead of incurring another transfer.

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

The Confederation Line is being built for almost double the capacity of the current demand. Even with the Trillium line junction I doubt the load at Bayview will be that much different than Hurdman, it might even be more balanced with close to an equal amount transferring to and from either line.

We'd have to ask OC Transpo how much they've modeled demand coming out of Bayview. Personally, I doubt they've assume most of STO's traffic dumped there.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

Added transfer? For whom, where and why?

I'm not rehashing everything. You can go back through the discussion here.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I'm not rehashing everything. You can go back through the discussion here.

Is anyone proposing rail over the PoW bridge as the only interprovincial transit connection?

No?

Alright then. Keep trying to set fire to that strawman, if it makes you happy.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

The transfer at Tunney's is not permanent. Nobody from Barrhaven or Kanata or Stittsville will be transferring at Tunney's after 2023. You are comparing the effects of a temporary situation for OC Transpo riders from the west and southwest, against a proposed permanent change for STO riders.

True, they will be transferring at Baseline or Moodie instead. In another 5-10 years that may change for Kanata residents to Eagleson or Terryfox. Eventually Barrhaven residents may get a transfer at Fallowfield or Market Square. No matter how you slice it, it is a transfer. I am not saying it is a bad thing, I just don't understand why it is any different.

And for those complaining about 2 transfers to Ottawa, post LRT, most in Ottawa suburbs will have 2 transfers to Hull (OC Transpo will be extending a few Connexion buses to Hull, but I don't think that will last past Stage 2).

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by roger1818

And for those complaining about 2 transfers to Ottawa, post LRT, most in Ottawa suburbs will have 2 transfers to Hull (OC Transpo will be extending a few Connexion buses to Hull, but I don't think that will last past Stage 2).

True, but downtown Ottawa is a far more important destination for Gatinois than downtown Hull is for Ottawans.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by roger1818

True, they will be transferring at Baseline or Moodie instead. In another 5-10 years that may change for Kanata residents to Eagleson or Terryfox. Eventually Barrhaven residents may get a transfer at Fallowfield or Market Square. No matter how you slice it, it is a transfer. I am not saying it is a bad thing, I just don't understand why it is any different.

And for those complaining about 2 transfers to Ottawa, post LRT, most in Ottawa suburbs will have 2 transfers to Hull (OC Transpo will be extending a few Connexion buses to Hull, but I don't think that will last past Stage 2).

What's your point? Short of building an LRT to everyone's front door, they will need to transfer somewhere. And most of them will be transferring once. Bus to LRT.

Compare that to the hypothetical of running buses along PoW. They transfer from local bus to Rapibus (or get on a Rapibus) to Confed line at Bayview. Why is the extra transfer needed? Just run the bus they are on through the core or westward to Tunney's. And get them closer to their final destination. There's simply no need to actually transfer to the Confederation Line.

Suggesting that we direct most bus traffic to Bayview is moronic because it creates a problem where there is none. What exactly is wrong with the current setup for STO or OC Transpo? Is either side unhappy with the current arrangement? Or is the argument to run buses to Bayview simply an attempt to justify spending on the PoW? This is sunk cost fallacy run amok.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

What's your point? Short of building an LRT to everyone's front door, they will need to transfer somewhere. And most of them will be transferring once. Bus to LRT.

Exactly. So why is it a problem for Gatineau residents to transfer to LRT?

What exactly is wrong with the current setup for STO or OC Transpo?

We are going to end up with buses looping around downtown, making a bunch of left and right turns to get back to Gatineau. it is only a matter of time before a pedestrian or cyclist will get hit by a turning bus. I'm not suggesting we get rid of all buses downtown, but the STO having 38 different routes running through Ottawa's central business district (about 3 times as many as OC Transpo) so that Gatineau residents can have the luxury of a one seat ride from home to downtown Ottawa when Ottawa residents are loosing that luxury seems crazy.

Is either side unhappy with the current arrangement?

The politicians seem to like it. We will see what the people think once they make the change.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by roger1818

The politicians seem to like it. We will see what the people think once they make the change.

Ottawans may or may not be immediately satisfied with the transition to the Confederation Line. But I seriously doubt that any significant portion of their level of satisfaction/dissatisfaction will be related to what Gatinois who work in Ottawa CBD "get" or "don't get" in terms of transit.