Chief William Commanda Bridge (former Prince of Wales Bridge)

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

At what other point does the Rapibus system get any closer to the O-Train network? There's no reason why service to Taché station could be more regular, there's a university there. In fact it would link UQO, uOttawa and Carleton in some fashion.

It's useful to commuters from eastern Gatineau who take Rapibus to get to either Tunney's or downtown Ottawa. If they ran buses from Bayview to the Chaudiere and Portage complexes via the PoW, it would also be useful for west.enders who need to go there.

Gatineau chooses to run part of its rapid transit system on transit lanes on mixed traffic, just as Ottawa has been doing for 30 years. At some point they will decide on some sort of downtown link and it may be viable to link one of the Confederation stations near the Quebec border. Trying to force a link with an underused spur makes no sense. The reason why Taché isn't more regular is that there is not much there and that why almost all of the Rapibus routes proceed to downtown from Montcalm. With all due respect to UQAQ it is a very small institution. We're going to build an expensive 2 km new transit line so students at a tiny French-only school can take classes at an English-only school and save a 10 minute bus ride?

[Norman Bates]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Gatineau chooses to run part of its rapid transit system on transit lanes on mixed traffic, just as Ottawa has been doing for 30 years. At some point they will decide on some sort of downtown link and it may be viable to link one of the Confederation stations near the Quebec border. Trying to force a link with an underused spur makes no sense. The reason why Taché isn't more regular is that there is not much there and that why almost all of the Rapibus routes proceed to downtown from Montcalm. With all due respect to UQAQ it is a very small institution. We're going to build an expensive 2 km new transit line so students at a tiny French-only school can take classes at an English-only school and save a 10 minute bus ride?

LOL! I saw what you did there.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by acottawa

With all due respect to UQAQ it is a very small institution. We're going to build an expensive 2 km new transit line so students at a tiny French-only school can take classes at an English-only school and save a 10 minute bus ride?

The UQO (Université du Québec en Outaouais) has about 7500 students.

But you'd be right that it's not in any way a significant generator of interprovincial transit demand.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Acajack

The UQO (Université du Québec en Outaouais) has about 7500 students.

Which is small for a post secondary institution.

But you'd be right that it's not in any way a significant generator of interprovincial transit demand.

Correct. Post secondary institutions are largely autonomous and there is little demand for transit between them ignoring the language and political differences.

I have often thought that Bayview would be a good location for a private, off campus, student housing project (like Evo in Montreal) as it would be a single train ride to uOttawa, Carleton and eventually Algonquin. Utilization of the POW bridge would add UQO to the mix, but that on its own wouldn't be justification for the service.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Acajack

The UQO (Université du Québec en Outaouais) has about 7500 students.

But you'd be right that it's not in any way a significant generator of interprovincial transit demand.

Doesn't that include the Saint-Jérôme campus?

Or do we have to extend the O-Train to Saint-Jérôme now?

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Doesn't that include the Saint-Jérôme campus?

Or do we have to extend the O-Train to Saint-Jérôme now?

I think about 2/3 of the student population is at the main Hull campus.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

It's useful to commuters from eastern Gatineau who take Rapibus to get to either Tunney's or downtown Ottawa..

It would be useful to someone leaving from Labrosse in the east with downtown Ottawa as a destination? You really think so?

The only scenario where it would be useful is if Ottawa totally banned STO from using the Portage Bridge and its downtown streets for its Rapibus and other routes.

And that would never happen as it would be akin to an interprovincial declaration of war.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

It's useful to commuters from eastern Gatineau who take Rapibus to get to either Tunney's or downtown Ottawa.

Over the past couple of years the STO had created three direct routes to/from Tunney's that use the Champlain Bridge and the Parkway.

One is from Aylmer, the other is from the Hull-Plateau district and the newest one runs along the Rapibus corridor from eastern Gatineau to Taché-UQO and then heads west to the Champlain via Taché and Lucerne.

The PoW solution might help travel times for people who use the last one (18) but not by much.

STO's Tunney's routes are dreaded "one-seat" rides for a lot of people, and also run through part of the complex so it's less of a walk for many than getting off the train at Tunney's Pasture Station would be.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

. If they ran buses from Bayview to the Chaudiere and Portage complexes via the PoW, it would also be useful for west.enders who need to go there.

That's about the only part of this idea that could be referred to as a slam dunk positive for quite a few people.

[Kitchissippi]

Originally Posted by Acajack

It would be useful to someone leaving from Labrosse in the east with downtown Ottawa as a destination? You really think so?

Yes, if buses have to contend with traffic and bridge congestion between Montcalm and downtown Ottawa compared to dedicated BRT to Bayview. The main Rapibus axis is already west of downtown Ottawa as it approaches the core, and whether you veer back east on the on the Quebec or Ontario shore makes little difference.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

Yes, if buses have to contend with traffic and bridge congestion between Montcalm and downtown Ottawa compared to dedicated BRT to Bayview. The main Rapibus axis is already west of downtown Ottawa as it approaches the core, and whether you veer back east on the on the Quebec or Ontario shore makes little difference.

Note that eastern Gatineau peak-hour Rapibus routes to and from Ottawa don't use Montcalm, they use Allumettières-Maisonneuve-Portage, and there are bus/HOV lanes for that entire routing until they get to Wellington St. in Ottawa.

So there is no "veering" west for people travelling these routes.

Conceivably at some point in the future traffic could become problematic on this routing even with with the reserved lanes, but at the moment there aren't really any serious issues with it on the Quebec side. Problems if any are on Wellington, though later this year these routes will move to Lyon/Albert/Slater so presumably this will reduce delays even more as these streets (without OC Transpo) won't be as congested as Wellington (especially in the summer).

At this point though I can't see how what amounts to about a 10-km detour plus a transfer (at Bayview) would be a "relief" or an "improvement".

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Note that eastern Gatineau peak-hour Rapibus routes to and from Ottawa don't use Montcalm, they use Allumettières-Maisonneuve-Portage, and there are bus/HOV lanes for that entire routing until they get to Wellington St. in Ottawa.

Fair enough. Off peak they use Montcalm as it is a more direct route.

So there is no "veering" west for people travelling these routes.

No, as the map below shows, they travel west (and south) on the Rapibus line to Montcalm station, and then east on both Allumettières and Wellington.



Interestingly, Rapibus route 18 to Tunnies Pasture travels west from TACHÉ – UQO to the Champlain Bridge and then east to Tunnies Pasture, which is a significant detour.

At this point though I can't see how what amounts to about a 10-km detour plus a transfer (at Bayview) would be a "relief" or an "improvement".

Where on earth do you get the idea that it would be a 10km detour? The route would be a bit longer (about 4.5 km from Montcalm Station to Lyon Station instead of 3.5 km), plus there would be a transfer, but not 10km extra.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Fair enough. Off peak they use Montcalm as it is a more direct route.



No, as the map below shows, they travel west (and south) on the Rapibus line to Montcalm station, and then east on both Allumettières and Wellington.



Interestingly, Rapibus route 18 to Tunnies Pasture travels west from TACHÉ – UQO to the Champlain Bridge and then east to Tunnies Pasture, which is a significant detour.



Where on earth do you get the idea that it would be a 10km detour? The route would be a bit longer (about 4.5 km from Montcalm Station to Lyon Station instead of 3.5 km), plus there would be a transfer, but not 10km extra.

Really? I'd like to see a Google Maps or some other comparative routing that shows there is only 1 km difference between the two routes. Sorry I don't have the ability to do this. Just looking at them on a map this seems incredibly hard to believe.

Anyway, this still seems like a solution in search of a problem.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Really? I'd like to see a Google Maps or some other comparative routing that shows there is only 1 km difference between the two routes. Sorry I don't have the ability to do this. Just looking at them on a map this seems incredibly hard to believe.

Sure. I followed the rail line from Montcalm to Bayview and my best guess as to the route of the Confederation line from Bayview to Lyon Station. As you can see the peak period bus route is 3.5km (not including the loop the bus has to take to get from the Rapibus road to the off ramp) and the POW bridge route is 4.45km.



(unfortunately the Measure Distance tool gets lost in the link to Google Maps)

[Acajack]

Thanks for doing that. Interesting but the benefits are basically negligible compared to the status quo.

[Kitchissippi]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Thanks for doing that. Interesting but the benefits are basically negligible compared to the status quo.

The difference is that the O-train would be doing the heavy lifting through downtown Ottawa which saves some STO buses from a 5 km roundtrip loop. Again I am not saying all STO buses, maybe just a third could terminate a Bayview. Given there are about 1,300 buses that cross the river that would amount to 400 buses. If it costs STO $30 per bus in fuel, vehicle and driver cost to do this loop (pulling a figure out of a hat here), it might represent a $4 million saving per year. Having a fare-paid STO bus loop at Bayview could also offer more comfortable and faster boarding.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

The difference is that the O-train would be doing the heavy lifting through downtown Ottawa which saves some STO buses from a 5 km roundtrip loop. Again I am not saying all STO buses, maybe just a third could terminate a Bayview. Given there are about 1,300 buses that cross the river that would amount to 400 buses. If it costs STO $30 per bus in fuel, vehicle and driver cost to do this loop (pulling a figure out of a hat here), it might represent a $4 million saving per year. Having a fare-paid STO bus loop at Bayview could also offer more comfortable and faster boarding.

May save STO some dough but provides a horrible rider experience. I would presume most of those Gatineau commuters are bound for downtown Ottawa. You'll now force them to transfer at Bayview, instead of being able to get off and walk to their final destination.

And your adding riders at Bayview, so all they're doing is shifting costs to Ottawa from Gatineau.

I stand by my assertion, using the PoW for transit is nonsensical unless Gatineau is willing and can fund the conversion of the Rapibus corridor, so we can talk about implementing a single continuous rail service or a transfer at Alex. Tache.

[Kitchissippi]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

May save STO some dough but provides a horrible rider experience. I would presume most of those Gatineau commuters are bound for downtown Ottawa. You'll now force them to transfer at Bayview, instead of being able to get off and walk to their final destination.

Depends on your destination. If it's uOttawa, Tunney's, Confed heights/Carleton or anywhere else on the O-Train lines other than downtown it's a far better experience than being dropped off at Lyon.

I can't even understand how being dropped off at Bayview with every direction of the O-Train network at your disposal could be construed as "a horrible rider experience."

And you're adding riders at Bayview, so all they're doing is shifting costs to Ottawa from Gatineau.

I stand by my assertion, using the PoW for transit is nonsensical unless Gatineau is willing and can fund the conversion of the Rapibus corridor, so we can talk about implementing a single continuous rail service or a transfer at Alex. Tache.

You'd be shifting far more of the cost if the Trillium line was extended over. In fact, converting the PoW to a 2-lane BRT would place the operating cost of the crossing on STO but at the same time reduce their cost.

The Confederation Line is being built for almost double the capacity of the current demand. Even with the Trillium line junction I doubt the load at Bayview will be that much different than Hurdman, it might even be more balanced with close to an equal amount transferring to and from either line.

Turning the Rapibus corridor and Trillium Line into one continuous rail service makes little sense to me, the demand on the Gatineau side is very different from the Ottawa side of the line. It's better to keep them separate to be adjustable to the different needs.

[kmcamp]

If we're going across the bridge, it'd be better to follow the old industrial spurs and serve places where people on this side of the river commute to, mostly place du portage and Terrace

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

Depends on your destination. If it's uOttawa, Tunney's, Confed heights/Carleton or anywhere else on the O-Train lines other than downtown it's a far better experience than being dropped off at Lyon.

.

They already thought of UOttawa anyway, which is the main destination for Gatineau riders out of the three: When the Confederation Line enters service the Ottawa-bound Rapibus routes will terminate a stone's throw away from Tabaret Hall (Besserer/Waller), not at Lyon.

As for Tunney's as mentioned earlier STO already has three routes that go there across the Champlain - with no transfers in Ottawa once you're on them.

I agree with you about Confederation Heights where there is some amount of employment for Gatineau residents.

Carleton U is not a big O-D driver for Gatineau people.