Great Lakes Cities

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

that woodward map is retarded.

toronto, baltimore, and the oklahoma pandhandle all occupy the same sub-region?

but boston, NYC, philly, and DC occupy four separate sub-regions?

ooooooooo-kay........... whatever you say.

This.

[Docere]

Originally Posted by Crawford

So I don't know what constitutes "Southern Ontario".

South of Algonquin Park, basically.

[Docere]

Originally Posted by Crawford

So I don't know what constitutes "Southern Ontario", but the areas of Ontario close to Detroit are culturally quite similar. Everything from Windsor or Sarnia to about London has a semi-similar vibe, IMO. Once past London you get more in the Toronto orbit.

The Windsor area is definitely influenced by Detroit.

[Acajack]

"Influenced by" to me is not the same as "similar" or "very similar", "pretty similar", etc.

My own city is certainly influenced by neighbouring Ottawa and Ontario a great deal, but one can't necessarily think you're in the other city when you're in the other IMO. (A big part of that is language, but there are other differences too.

Similarly (sorry), I don't find that you can say when in S Michigan that one can systematically mistakenly get the impression you're in S Ontario or even SW Ontario.

It feels and looks different.

And just one example: a lot of people often say S Michigan is like SW Ontario *except for Detroit*, but to me the differences go beyond Detroit, to many of the cities in S Michigan in fact.

SW Ontario or even S Ontario more broadly don't have starkly down on their luck cities like Flint, Muskegon, Saginaw, Lansing, Benton Harbor, and even the GTA doesn't have a bunch of down on their luck suburbs like Detroit does like Pontiac, etc.

Yes, some of S Ontario is not as prosperous (thinking of Hamilton as an example) but generally speaking the affluence gap is much less brutal on the Canadian side of the border.

Even a place like Ann Arbor, which is a large All-American college town type of place, isn't really a type of city that exists in Canada.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Similarly (sorry), I don't find that you can say when in S Michigan that one can systematically mistakenly get the impression you're in S Ontario or even SW Ontario.

The built form is a bit different (a few more commieblocks, more modest older SFH housing), and the ethnic mix is somewhat different (proportionally more recent immigrants from random places around the globe given differences in immigration policy), but Detroiters and Windsorites tend to talk the same, shop, eat and gather in the same places, follow the same sports and work in the same fields. It's probably about as similar as it gets between the two countries.

Every Detroit-area hospital will have Canadian nurses (because higher pay) the University of Windsor has lots of American students (because lower tuition) and the like.

Originally Posted by Acajack

SW Ontario or even S Ontario more broadly don't have starkly down on their luck cities like Flint, Muskegon, Saginaw, Lansing, Benton Harbor, and even the GTA doesn't have a bunch of down on their luck suburbs like Detroit does like Pontiac, etc.

SW Ontario doesn't have bombed-out African American ghettos, because Canada doesn't have this demographic, and MI has it in spades.

But basically all the SW Ontario cities have depressed city centers. Sarnia is very depressed (worse than neighboring Port Huron, MI), Windsor's core is quite sad, and small towns like Leamington have Rust Belt-y, depressed main streets. I'm not sure if any of the cities between Detroit and Toronto have really thriving cores. London is kinda meh.

Lansing isn't "starkly down on its luck", BTW. There's no ghetto, no abandonment, and the core is OK (about London-level mediocre). Pontiac has a terrible core but isn't abandoned or ghetto-ish; it's just poor.

Originally Posted by Acajack

Even a place like Ann Arbor, which is a large All-American college town type of place, isn't really a type of city that exists in Canada.

Again, as with African American neighborhoods, the college town typology is more-or-less exclusively American.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Crawford

The built form is a bit different (a few more commieblocks, more modest older SFH housing), and the ethnic mix is somewhat different (proportionally more recent immigrants from random places around the globe given differences in immigration policy), but Detroiters and Windsorites tend to talk the same, shop, eat and gather in the same places, follow the same sports and work in the same fields. It's probably about as similar as it gets between the two countries.

Every Detroit-area hospital will have Canadian nurses (because higher pay) the University of Windsor has lots of American students (because lower tuition) and the like.

SW Ontario doesn't have bombed-out African American ghettos, because Canada doesn't have this demographic, and MI has it in spades.

But basically all the SW Ontario cities have depressed city centers. Sarnia is very depressed (worse than neighboring Port Huron, MI), Windsor's core is quite sad, and small towns like Leamington have Rust Belt-y, depressed main streets. I'm not sure if any of the cities between Detroit and Toronto have really thriving cores. London is kinda meh.

Lansing isn't "starkly down on its luck", BTW. There's no ghetto, no abandonment, and the core is OK (about London-level mediocre). Pontiac has a terrible core but isn't abandoned or ghetto-ish; it's just poor.


Again, as with African American neighborhoods, the college town typology is more-or-less exclusively American.

All of that is still more than enough to make it tangibly "different".

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Crawford

The built form is a bit different (a few more commieblocks, more modest older SFH housing), and the ethnic mix is somewhat different (proportionally more recent immigrants from random places around the globe given differences in immigration policy), but Detroiters and Windsorites tend to talk the same, shop, eat and gather in the same places, follow the same sports and work in the same fields. It's probably about as similar as it gets between the two countries.

.

This is "proximity" and "contact" which is not the same as "similarity".

You'd definitely find more close similarities in many of the border communities in Western Canada or New Brunswick IMO.

[pj3000]

Canadian cities do feel different from American cities to me.

At their worst they are never quite as bad, and at their best they are never quite as good.

Lots of ways to interpret that... interpret it however you wish.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by pj3000

Canadian cities do feel different from American cities to me.

At their worst they are never quite as bad, and at their best they are never quite as good.

Lots of ways to interpret that... interpret it however you wish.

I often say the exact same thing.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I often say the exact same thing.

And I don't mean that as a slight to Canadian cities in any way. Like I said, there's lots of ways to interpret it and I think about quite a bit actually.

(To me, it's more of an indictment on American cities... and in my opinion, Americans would do well to emulate our neighbors to the north -- I wouldn't suggest the opposite for Canadians...)

[Docere]

Originally Posted by Crawford

But basically all the SW Ontario cities have depressed city centers. Sarnia is very depressed (worse than neighboring Port Huron, MI), Windsor's core is quite sad, and small towns like Leamington have Rust Belt-y, depressed main streets. I'm not sure if any of the cities between Detroit and Toronto have really thriving cores. London is kinda meh.

Guelph.

[suburbanite]

It's a fair assessment, from an urbanist point of view at least. A lack of vast neighbourhoods of pre-war rowhouses or Art Deco skyscrapers as the trade-off for very little urban decay and inner-city violence.

Originally Posted by pj3000

And I don't mean that as a slight to Canadian cities in any way. Like I said, there's lots of ways to interpret it and I think about quite a bit actually.

(To me, it's more of an indictment on American cities... and in my opinion, Americans would do well to emulate our neighbors to the north -- I wouldn't suggest the opposite for Canadians...)

[Docere]

^ Toronto has more prewar rowhouses than most US Great Lakes cities.

[pj3000]

US Great Lakes cities have better Pizza than Toronto.

Border war!!!

[suburbanite]

Originally Posted by Docere

^ Toronto has more prewar rowhouses than most US Great Lakes cities.

Sure, maybe compared to Detroit or Cleveland who have probably lost a ton between 1950 and today. Chicago, however, is probably the best comparable for Toronto and it's not even close there.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by suburbanite

Sure, maybe compared to Detroit or Cleveland who have probably lost a ton between 1950 and today. Chicago, however, is probably the best comparable for Toronto and it's not even close there.

relatively speaking, chicago has few rowhouses.

core chicago is a predominately "flat" city, as in 2-flats, 3-flats, and 6-flats.

out in the bungalow belt things obviously become way more detached SFH.

but the rowhouse was never really chicago's strong suit.

[Docere]

Originally Posted by suburbanite

Sure, maybe compared to Detroit or Cleveland who have probably lost a ton between 1950 and today. Chicago, however, is probably the best comparable for Toronto and it's not even close there.

I think Toronto a century ago was more rowhouse-y than Detroit, Cleveland or Buffalo. Chicago has more obviously because it was huge a century ago but it's not a huge part of the urban fabric.

[suburbanite]

Originally Posted by Docere

I think Toronto a century ago was more rowhouse-y than Detroit, Cleveland or Buffalo. Chicago has more obviously because it was huge a century ago.

That's my original point though. Where Canadian cities lost out by not being as mature as their american counterparts in the early 20th century, they gained by avoiding white flight and as much decentralization post-war.

Probably shouldn't have even used the word row houses since the Great Lakes Region in general never built them on the scale of New York, Philadelphia, Baltimore, etc.

The equivalent between Chicago and Toronto is probably more akin to this:

[softee]

^ Neither of those examples are rowhouses.

Toronto has thousands of legit rowhouses, more than any other great lakes city.

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

relatively speaking, chicago has few rowhouses.

core chicago is a predominately "flat" city, as in 2-flats, 3-flats, and 6-flats.

out in the bungalow belt things obviously become way more detached SFH.

but the rowhouse was never really chicago's strong suit.

also, the neighborhoods where rowhouses would have been built in the largest numbers were likely consumed by the colossal central business/industrial districts overspreading the center. the historical breadth of chicagos cbd far outstrips anything not on a coast in north america.