Great Lakes Cities

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by suburbanite

I dig it. I'm guessing it developed at least somewhat independently from St. Louis given the pre-war housing stock in the surrounding area.

That's the kind of thing we're missing in Canada. Our cities weren't large enough to develop independent pre-war urban cores of that scale that were eventually swallowed up by the growing metro. New Westminster might be the closest thing we have.

it's complicated but another sort of lower mid-atlantic-y thing...theres st. louis city and st. louis county...st. louis city was carved out of st. louis county in the 1870s and a brand new st. louis county county seat established at clayton, with a new courthouse... instead of st. louis. st. louis city became its own city-county, like baltimore city and not entire unlike d.c. proper (which is even more complicated, though). pretty much off the bat, though, clayton was a suburb of st. louis, but grew into more of a powerful satellite city.

the clayton pre-war housing stock was largely built as "suburban" housing stock for st. louis city, though, as clayton didn't really become a center of gravity of its own until the 1960s when the first taller residential highrises and corporate buildings started going up...before that the downtown was just a small business district serving the county courts at the edge of the built area of metro st. louis, while the clayton housing stock and apt districts "served" st. louis proper.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by suburbanite

Other than Evanston in Chicago (which I think is far more urban than any suburban core in Toronto), are there any other Great Lakes cities that have a comparable to Mississauga City Centre, North York, or Scarborough Town Centre?

chicagoland also has oak park, an older pre-war burb that has recently caught the highrise development bug.

and given evanston's turn toward anti-development NIMBYism, we might just see oak park's skyline outgrow evanston's someday.


but both evanston and oak park are different kinds of animals compared to those suburban toronto "residential highrises built around a mall" centers.

evanston and oak park both have legitimate urban aesthetics thanks to their pre-war pedigrees.

and both would NEVER allow 500+ foot residential towers again thanks to their pre-war pedigress.

evanston: https://www.google.com/maps/@42.0484782,...itch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656

oak park: https://www.google.com/maps/@41.888633,-...EByl8lfMffu6tYdNzKk2A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

[Centropolis]

oak park has heftier pre-war bones downtown than i remember

[mrnyc]

Originally Posted by north 42

Have you ever been to Detroit or Toledo? They are very very similar, and are only separated by Monroe County, which they both have suburbs in! Obviously, Toledo being much smaller will have fewer suburbs than Detroit though. There are also lots of farms just outside of southern and western Detroit suburbs, just like around Toledo! I’m not sure how two cities that bump up against each other and share some suburban areas can be so different!

so glad you asked, i lived in toledo and surrounding area for nearly 10yrs, and yes as an adult, hows that?

[dc_denizen]

they have flush toilets in Toledo, not sure this is all that common up in Michigan.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by Centropolis

funny you should say that...i had a weird dream about eire, pa but it sounds more similar to toledo. i was driving into a depressed neighborhood from a somewhat depressed countryside. in real life the closest i’ve found to this is east st. louis...but theres no “farm culture” right around east st. louis...the farmers often live in suburbs further east/out/up (from the bottoms).

You can definitely drive from grape country in eastern Erie County into a depressed neighborhood on the east side of Erie somewhat quickly. But I wouldnt say that Erie and Toledo are similar, other than the fact that they're located on Lake Erie. The terrain and overall culture are quite different in my experience.

If you're talking about a "farm culture" standpoint... the predominance and types of farms are very different. Outside of Toledo is that vast flatness of never-ending, contiguous midwestern grain and livestock factory-farm country as far as the eye can see... and the overall economy and culutre of the area is highly influenced by that.

That's not the case in the Erie area at all. Once you get outside of urbanized area to the west or south, it's mainly smaller fruit farms broken up by hilly, forested land. But the major agriculutral economy in the area by far is grapes (it's the 2nd largest grape growing area in the nation) and the wealthy family-owned farms roll across the ridges above the lake in eastern Erie County into Chautauqua County NY.

Originally Posted by Centropolis

bethesda definitely looks more suburban boom than i remember. but clayton is getting a ton of residential highrise along with corporate towers and the area feels a lot like inner suburban dc or something (one of the main streets is maryland ave)...magnolias in front of luxury apartment buildings, etc. it may kind of resemble white plains functionally but feels much more dc area. the newer development is rapidly swallowing the old town center.

edit: i think i meant silver spring, md, not bethesda.

I think your Bethesda-Clayton comparison is spot on. Probably moreso than Silver Spring.

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by pj3000

You can definitely drive from grape country in eastern Erie County into a depressed neighborhood on the east side of Erie somewhat quickly. But I wouldnt say that Erie and Toledo are similar, other than the fact that they're located on Lake Erie. The terrain and overall culture are quite different in my experience.

If you're talking about a "farm culture" standpoint... the predominance and types of farms are very different. Outside of Toledo is that vast flatness of never-ending, contiguous midwestern grain and livestock factory-farm country as far as the eye can see... and the overall economy and culutre of the area is highly influenced by that.

That's not the case in the Erie area at all. Once you get outside of urbanized area to the west or south, it's mainly smaller fruit farms broken up by hilly, forested land. But the major agriculutral economy in the area by far is grapes (it's the 2nd largest grape growing area in the nation) and the wealthy family-owned farms roll across the ridges above the lake in eastern Erie County into Chatauqua County NY. Think the below farms vs.

that transition from the midwest to new york state is fascinating to me. i know that others call it all "great lakes" but geographically/geologically it does change, along with it the agriculture as you show. i drove from chicago to cooperstown (and later to boston) once in summer, one of the favorite drives i've done. i'd only do it in summer, though...

[mrnyc]

Originally Posted by dc_denizen

they have flush toilets in Toledo, not sure this is all that common up in Michigan.

and of course square wheels on motor vehicles in windsor.

the variation around that region is quite extreme!

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by Centropolis

that transition from the midwest to new york state is fascinating to me. i know that others call it all "great lakes" but geographically/geologically it does change, along with it the agriculture as you show. i drove from chicago to cooperstown (and later to boston) once in summer, one of the favorite drives i've done. i'd only do it in summer, though...

Yeah, there certainly is a change. I think the Cleveland area is probably a noticable transition point. Ha!, that trip in the winter could be a snowy adventure in whiteout, white-knuckle driving.

[Docere]

I guess you're talking about the transition out of the "corn belt"?

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by Docere

I guess you're talking about the transition out of the "corn belt"?

essentially. i'm always fascinated by these borderlands and transitions on the edges of the midwest. obviously they are most noticeable on the southern, eastern, and northern edges. the area where appalachia and whatever you might want to call the interior, upland-y northeast meet is interesting to me.


upload.wikimedia.org

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by Docere

I guess you're talking about the transition out of the "corn belt"?

Sure, that would probably be an apt generalization. That contiguous stretch of what I guess is known as the "heartland" from western Ohio-Indiana-Illinois-Wisconsin-Iowa-Nebraska-S Dakota-Minnesota. You can see how it abruptly ends in the Great Lakes region at Cleveland. This is probably as definitive/accurate proxy as you can get for where the Midwest-Northeast divide is.

[mousquet]

Originally Posted by pj3000

That looks so much like my country. This is exactly what I see when I drive my country.

Intensive agriculture. All over. And detarded.

Oh yes, they can produce fine wines and narcotics from this crap.
Farmers and chemical corporations are very skilled, but they're still wasting their time.

We all need to switch to organic agriculture. It is mostly based on a simple principle.
Bugs eat bugs. That's it. We don't need chemistry or monoculture to fill our stomachs.
Just rely on creepy spiders and others eating your annoying bugs.

And trust in biodiversity.

[Docere]

Originally Posted by pj3000

Sure, that would probably be an apt generalization. That contiguous stretch of what I guess is known as the "heartland" from western Ohio-Indiana-Illinois-Wisconsin-Iowa-Nebraska-S Dakota-Minnesota. You can see how it abruptly ends in the Great Lakes region at Cleveland. This is probably as definitive/accurate proxy as you can get for where the Midwest-Northeast divide is.

Yes, that lines up very well with the official definition of the Midwest (and justifies the exclusion of Buffalo and Erie PA from it).

North Dakota I guess is a bit of the odd man out. In many respects it resembles the Canadian Prairie provinces (at least the southern more populated parts) in terms of climate, economy and demographics.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by Docere

Yes, that lines up very well with the official definition of the Midwest (and justifies the exclusion of Buffalo and Erie PA from it).

North Dakota I guess is an odd man out too. In many respects it resembles the Canadian Prairie provinces (at least the southern more populated parts) in terms of climate, economy and demographics.

I would say that Cleveland could arguably be seen as a northeastern city as well, even though it is in Ohio (which is largely considered a midwestern state). Ohio is really the transition zone. With the change in terrain, comes a change in the widespread uses of the land, and thus resulting differences in economic, political, and overall cultural histories.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by mousquet

That looks so much like my country. This is exactly what I see when I drive my country.

Intensive agriculture. All over. And detarded.

Oh yes, they can produce fine wines and narcotics from this crap.
Farmers and chemical corporations are very skilled, but they're still wasting their time.
.

Well, if it's any consolation, they produce juices, jellies, and (not) fine wines from this crap in NW PA and SW NY.

Unless you prefer sweet wine.

The soils are perfect for grapes, but the climate is way too cold and wet in the winter and spring to make fine wines.

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by pj3000

I would say that Cleveland could arguably be seen as a northeastern city as well, even though it is in Ohio (which is largely considered a midwestern state). Ohio is really the transition zone. With the change in terrain, comes a change in the widespread uses of the land, and thus resulting differences in economic, political, and overall cultural histories.

the only city in that area that really feels like an "interior northeastern" city to me is pittsburgh, as it is decidedly within that northern end of appalachia which tumbles into new england, is well within pennsylvania of course, and is of appropriate vintage. i've only driven through buffalo on the interstate but it felt very midwestern great lakes-y from that vantage point. cleveland felt squarely midwestern to me (as someone who lives west of the mississippi!), with the exception of funny places like hudson in the cuyahoga valley (things like this pop up across the midwest, however).

[dc_denizen]

I grew up near Cleveland, and the northeast was not on the radar at all.

Someone moved to our school from CT, this was considered exotic.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by Centropolis

the only city in that area that really feels like an "interior northeastern" city to me is pittsburgh, as it is squarely within that northern end of appalachia which tumbles into new england. i've only driven through buffalo on the interstate but it felt very midwestern great lakes-y from that vantage point. cleveland felt squarely midwestern to me.

See I don't think Pittsburgh feels 'northeastern' at all. It feels much more Appalachian (WV, southern PA, southern OH, western MD) than it does New England to me... not even close really. Whereas Buffalo feels much more connected economically and culturally to the rest of NY state (and Canada even) than it does other Great Lakes cities like Detroit, Chicago, Milwaukee, etc. which could be termed solidly midwestern. I don't find either to be midwestern... because they're not.

I think it could be arguably said that Cleveland looks more east for its affiliations than it does west. Since it's overall history is more closely tied to NY and New England and points east than it is tied to Chicago, et. al.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by dc_denizen

I grew up near Cleveland, and the northeast was not on the radar at all.

Someone moved to our school from CT, this was considered exotic.

Appreciate your experience. But that's really a worthless example.