Great Lakes Cities

[Docere]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Re. Toronto and Buffalo historical populations, there were around 960k in Buffalo MSA in 1940 Census, and 900k in Toronto CMA in 1941 Census. So it's probable that Buffalo was larger than Toronto during WW2.

The urbanized area of Toronto was bigger in 1940. The city of Toronto had nearly 100,000 more people than Buffalo and perhaps 150,000 lived in an urbanized area outside city limits.

Buffalo was only "bigger" if you stretch your definition to include Niagara Falls, Lockport etc. It had a few urbanized suburbs like the Tonawandas and Lackawanna but this represented a smaller population than Toronto's suburbs.

Buffalo was however bigger before WWI.

[Doady]

Originally Posted by The North One

I mean that's obviously a chosen example of a Toronto suburb. Canadian metros are filled with detached home suburbs, the commie blocks are usually just centralized around main arteries, it's not that different. You can find commie blocks in every medium to large US metro as well. Canadian cities might have more, but that doesn't make them significantly different.

In the US these kind of buildings were built as part of publicly-led "urban renewal" projects that demolished existing inner city neighbourhoods, displacing the residents. A Canadian example is Regent Park. But in Canada these buildings were mostly part of privately-led greenfield developments in new subdivisions.

Of Toronto's 2200+ high-rises, 316 are located in Scarborough, 465 in North York, and 234 in Etobicoke. 1,015 total for population 1.6 million, similar per capita to New York City.

Of course, the buildings are concentrated along arterial corridors, which have the capacity to handle the traffic they generate, including bus traffic. Maybe the very high volume of buses and transit riders along these suburban corridors is not a coincidence.

When you guys think of Toronto, do not forget it has a very strong yet distinct suburban character. This is the same city that once elected Rob Ford as mayor after all.

[softee]

Originally Posted by Doady

When you guys think of Toronto, do not forget it has a very strong yet distinct suburban character. This is the same city that once elected Rob Ford as mayor after all.

And before Rob Ford the people in those same "suburban" areas of the city helped to elect far left wing mayor David Miller twice.

[mrnyc]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Toledo is basically a Detroit mini-me. I can't think of any cultural differences. It's more or less, the same metro.

nope they are quite seperated by geography and by culture. there is a distinct farm culture that very closely surrounds toledo and a dearth of suburbia. very unlike detriot. very different places.

[Docere]

Originally Posted by dc_denizen

suburban Toronto looked like suburban Detroit more than suburban DC to me (with some judicious sprinkling of co-op city style commieblocks).

DC suburbs are more cul-de-sac-ish, more wooded, more haphazard, more like Atlanta.

I mean look at how similar the overall plan is:

Detroit vs Toronto

Yup, DC seems to be the northernmost "New South" city to me. Not saying that DC and Toronto look that similar (they don't). Rather that Toronto's postwar growth is more analagous to DC than to Houston or Phoenix (both were already pretty major cities in 1940 but have grew very quickly after WWII and have a lot of new suburbia surrounding a sizable pre-war city).

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by mrnyc

nope they are quite seperated by geography and by culture. there is a distinct farm culture that very closely surrounds toledo and a dearth of suburbia. very unlike detriot. very different places.

funny you should say that...i had a weird dream about eire, pa but it sounds more similar to toledo. i was driving into a depressed neighborhood from a somewhat depressed countryside. in real life the closest i’ve found to this is east st. louis...but theres no “farm culture” right around east st. louis...the farmers often live in suburbs further east/out/up (from the bottoms).

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by Docere

Yup, DC seems to be the northernmost "New South" city to me. Not saying that DC and Toronto look that similar (they don't). Rather that Toronto's postwar growth is more analagous to DC than to Houston or Phoenix (both were already pretty major cities in 1940 but have grew very quickly after WWII and have a lot of new suburbia surrounding a sizable pre-war city).

Yep. While DC and Toronto couldn't be more different architecturally, demographically, economically, etc. they're each others closest analogue in their historical trajectory of growth. They're both of the same vintage and have managed to more or less keep pace with the size of the other for most of the past two centuries.

They're also similar in that they've built robust public transit systems in the post-war era and managed to avoid significant population loss in core neighbourhoods - the result of which now being a pair of cities with a thoroughly modern character and vast suburbs (with a lot of TOD), but which also possess extensive, thriving urban cores.

[suburbanite]

Toronto is much more akin to Washington in the sense that few other Eastern cities are as multi-nodal. Other than Evanston in Chicago (which I think is far more urban than any suburban core in Toronto), are there any other Great Lakes cities that have a comparable to Mississauga City Centre, North York, or Scarborough Town Centre? Tysons Corner would probably be the most analogous to Mississauga in terms of density and the fact they're both built around a mall.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by suburbanite

Toronto is much more akin to Washington in the sense that few other Eastern cities are as multi-nodal. Other than Evanston in Chicago (which I think is far more urban than any suburban core in Toronto), are there any other Great Lakes cities that have a comparable to Mississauga City Centre, North York, or Scarborough Town Centre? Tysons Corner would probably be the most analogous to Mississauga in terms of density and the fact they're both built around a mall.

Pretty much all these Great Lakes metros have suburban business nodes like North York or Tysons. But none will be highrise-filled and quasi-urban like a North York.

DC would be the most similar in terms of highrise suburban clusters around transit (NYC has the same, but it's more older communities enveloped by the metro rather than from-scratch suburbia). There are historical differences in the development of say, Stamford, CT and Bethesda, MD.

[north 42]

Originally Posted by mrnyc

nope they are quite seperated by geography and by culture. there is a distinct farm culture that very closely surrounds toledo and a dearth of suburbia. very unlike detriot. very different places.

Have you ever been to Detroit or Toledo? They are very very similar, and are only separated by Monroe County, which they both have suburbs in! Obviously, Toledo being much smaller will have fewer suburbs than Detroit though. There are also lots of farms just outside of southern and western Detroit suburbs, just like around Toledo! I’m not sure how two cities that bump up against each other and share some suburban areas can be so different!

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by suburbanite

Toronto is much more akin to Washington in the sense that few other Eastern cities are as multi-nodal. Other than Evanston in Chicago (which I think is far more urban than any suburban core in Toronto), are there any other Great Lakes cities that have a comparable to Mississauga City Centre, North York, or Scarborough Town Centre? Tysons Corner would probably be the most analogous to Mississauga in terms of density and the fact they're both built around a mall.

although not great lakes, clayton, mo is midwestern analog to the bethesdas of the world. it's why the st. louis development thread is named "st. louis and clayton." it has many of the elements of the nodes you find around dc, including dedicated ROW (elevated and subway) rail service and a relatively fast clip of moderate highrise development. this is sort of my downtown that i can walk to.

this is an older photo, multiple highrises are under construction or already built:

mikelewisrealtor.com


photo by ssp user moorlands.

photo by ssp user moorlands

[Centropolis]

as you can see in the last photo, it's buttressed on one end by solid pre-war type development, so it is really an uptown.

[Crawford]

Clayton is really more a White Plains than a Bethesda, IMO. It's more like a business district grafted onto an old town center, than some postwar boom enclave. Bethesda is a bit newer, and still had farms and the like into the 1950's.

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Clayton is really more a White Plains than a Bethesda, IMO. It's more like a business district grafted onto an old town center, than some postwar boom enclave. Bethesda is a bit newer, and still had farms and the like into the 1950's.

bethesda definitely looks more suburban boom than i remember. but clayton is getting a ton of residential highrise along with corporate towers and the area feels a lot like inner suburban dc or something (one of the main streets is maryland ave)...magnolias in front of luxury apartment buildings, etc. it may kind of resemble white plains functionally but feels much more dc area. the newer development is rapidly swallowing the old town center.

edit: i think i meant silver spring, md, not bethesda.

[LMich]

Originally Posted by north 42

Have you ever been to Detroit or Toledo? They are very very similar, and are only separated by Monroe County, which they both have suburbs in! Obviously, Toledo being much smaller will have fewer suburbs than Detroit. There are also lots of farms just outside of southern and western Detroit suburbs, just like around Toledo! I’m not sure how two cities that bump up against each other and share some suburban areas can be so different!

I don't really want to get into this, but aside from their proximinity, they really aren't all that similar. Sure, just given it's location, it's more in Detroit's sphere of influence than anywhere else, so it's going to feel more "Michigan" than any other of Ohio's major cities. They are similar in the same way any other big city on the lakes is similar to another. But that's about the ballgame, right there. Honestly, once the size difference is as great as it is between Metro Detroit and metro Toledo, it's apples and oranges just due to the scale. The idea that the two are so incredibly similar is bizarre to me; they really aren't.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by LMich

I don't really want to get into this, but aside from their proximinity, they really aren't all that similar.

What would be a cultural, historical, demographic or economic difference between Detroit and Toledo? They look, feel, and act the same.

[suburbanite]

I dig it. I'm guessing it developed at least somewhat independently from St. Louis given the pre-war housing stock in the surrounding area.

That's the kind of thing we're missing in Canada. Our cities weren't large enough to develop independent pre-war urban cores of that scale that were eventually swallowed up by the growing metro. New Westminster might be the closest thing we have.

[north 42]

Originally Posted by LMich

I don't really want to get into this, but aside from their proximinity, they really aren't all that similar. Sure, just given it's location, it's more in Detroit's sphere of influence than anywhere else, so it's going to feel more "Michigan" than any other of Ohio's major cities. They are similar in the same way any other big city on the lakes is similar to another. But that's about the ballgame, right there. Honestly, once the size difference is as great as it is between Metro Detroit and metro Toledo, it's apples and oranges just due to the scale. The idea that the two are so incredibly similar is bizarre to me; they really aren't.

I used to go to Toledo all the time for many decades. It never really felt that much different from Detroit. It was blue collar, automotive and had a fair amount of blight DT and in the inner city neighbourhoods. They also would get Detroit tv and radio stations. I can’t think of another city more like Detroit, other than maybe Flint!

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by LMich

Honestly, once the size difference is as great as it is between Metro Detroit and metro Toledo, it's apples and oranges just due to the scale.

generally speaking, i can't agree with that.

using the chicago/milwaukee example, those two cities also exist at very different scales yet the extremely strong similarities in urban geography, history, culture, and demographics between them is absolutely unmistakable.

of course, there are also many differences as well (residential vernacular, rail transit, urban density), but the DNA is very evidently the same between them. big brother/little brother.

[dc_denizen]

Detroit’s neighbor offers much

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/opinion...or-offers-much-gentrification/109900378/

Odd to mention an automotive collapse, when today Toledo is the site of worldwide Jeep production and a gigantic factory..guess it's the outsourced suppliers (thanks NAFTA).