Richmond, B.C., considers banning Chinese-only signage

[Acajack]

You are making assumptions about my views on the aboriginal issue.

[giallo]

Originally Posted by bless-u

From what I understand, Western businesses in China without Chinese translated names will likely be less successful. So most of them do. The English only ones are usually left that way deliberately for creating a sense of prestige which the wealthy section of the population craves. It isn't done because of being culturally insensitive or rude like those found in major Canadian cities.

I'm not talking about big western brands though. I'm talking about foreign-owned and operated cafes, restaurants and even real estate agencies that cater to foreigners. The language issue has nothing to do with prestige, and more to do with money and practicality.

There are many foreign-run businesses here that cater to the expat market, and only the expat market - Shanghai alone has over 300,000 expats. They don't print advertisements in Chinese newspapers or publications. It's a money pit as most local Chinese aren't interested in the food they are selling (the younger locals are, but most of them can read English) or paying the prices for the lane houses they are renting. Go to Pudong, and you'll see real estate agencies that only operate in English for the purpose of trying to land those sweet "expat package" foreigners that arrive to work at large multinational companies, and have rental budgets of $10,000USD+.

The Japanese businesses here are even more exclusive. While even a Turkish restaurant will chose English as its main or only language of operation, Japanese businesses (especially in Hong Qiao district) don't even bother attracting anyone but Japanese people. Not a word of English or a Chinese character anywhere (they never used Kanji on the signs outside making it difficult for Chinese to read).

What's happening in Vancouver is natural when you have a large immigrant group from one country coming in. The language issues will fade in time as each generation becomes more "naturalized".

[bless-u]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I mean, back when there were lots of English only signs in Quebec, someone could easily have made the argument that it was just a "prestige" thing and wasn't in any way meant to be disrespectful or rude to francophones.

It depends on the scale.

For example, small number of restaurants of foreign cuisines, or some imported grocery stores, with foreign language only signs spread out sporadically might actually be considered fun, exotic or even charming in some areas.

However, when this type of establishment has grown into a huge cluster and become a prominent colony of its own so much so that it creates a sense of barrier in both language and culture to the majority locals, and is perceived as incongruous to the dominant way of life, then conflicts arise.

Small scale is fine; exceedingly large scale can be threatening.

[bless-u]

Originally Posted by Acajack

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvquDhsD9gc

That commercial is WICKED!!!

[bless-u]

Originally Posted by giallo

What's happening in Vancouver is natural when you have a large immigrant group from one country coming in. The language issues will fade in time as each generation becomes more "naturalized".

"Natural" to the members of that particular community, no doubt. The bigger, the better. It will give them leverage on many things, including political influence. But outside that community the perception is quite different, I bet.

The bigger a community, the greater the responsibility for it to make peace with the mainstream society and to ensure a harmonious co-existence. But based on my personal observation, this community, be it in Vancouver or Toronto, tends to be ignorant to the impact it's created or simple choose to ignore the outside world and shut out the majority locals, some deliberately.

That's not multiculturalism; that's colonization and territorial establishment. That's what people find alarming. That's why people begin to reject certain community. They have only themselves to blame if things get escalated. It's only the matter of time.

[giallo]

Originally Posted by bless-u

"Natural" to the members of that particular community, no doubt. The bigger, the better. It will give them leverage on many things, including political influence. But outside that community the perception is quite different, I bet.

The bigger a community, the greater the responsibility for it to make peace with the mainstream society and to ensure a harmonious co-existence. But based on my personal observation, this community, be it in Vancouver or Toronto, tends to be ignorant to the impact it's created or simple choose to ignore the outside world and shut out the majority locals, some deliberately.

That's not multiculturalism; that's colonization and territorial establishment. That's what people find alarming. That's why people begin to reject certain community.

Again, I think that will change once their children go through the school system. First generation immigrants often stick together due to language and cultural similarities. I'd give it another 15 years, and we'll see a different culture emerge.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by giallo

Again, I think that will change once their children go through the school system. First generation immigrants often stick together due to language and cultural similarities. I'd give it another 15 years, and we'll see a different culture emerge.

But doesn't this assume that this 'wave' of immigration stops at some point? Cause it doesn't appear that it's going to anytime soon.

[giallo]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

But doesn't this assume that this 'wave' of immigration stops at some point? Cause it doesn't appear that it's going to anytime soon.

I am assuming that the influx of Mainland Chinese will abate at some point in the near future. Of course, this all depends on the stability of the CCP. If they can fulfill their promises of a cleaner environment, a continued crackdown on government corruption and a long term, stable economy, this next Chinese generation coming through the school system now will have less desire to leave China.

If we do witness a complete collapse of trust in the government/or civil unrest/war, we'll be dealing with a whole new kind of Mainland Chinese immigrant; refugees.

[Acajack]

At this point what is sustaining the Chinese language presence in Vancouver is the fact that immigration of Chinese-raised people fluent in the languages (spoken and written) is more than compensating for the Canadian-raised Chinese kids who are assimilating.

In a sense every 1 kid who assimilates is being replaced by 1+ new arrival.

The question is whether this can and will be sustained through both the willingness of sufficient numbers of Chinese people to move to Canada, and no significant change in Canada's immigration policies.

Canada's immigration policies are unlikely to change in the short term I'd say.

As for people moving from China, I'd say that even if conditions improve there, there is so much population that there will always be enough people leaving for Canada to sustain a decent level of immigration to Canada. And replace those kids who are assimilating.

Provided Canada still wants to accept them. Which I think it will.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by giallo

I am assuming that the influx of Mainland Chinese will abate at some point in the near future. Of course, this all depends on the stability of the CCP. If they can fulfill their promises of a cleaner environment, a continued crackdown on government corruption and a long term, stable economy, this next Chinese generation coming through the school system now will have less desire to leave China.

If we do witness a complete collapse of trust in the government/or civil unrest/war, we'll be dealing with a whole new kind of Mainland Chinese immigrant; refugees.

Originally Posted by Acajack

The question is whether this can and will be sustained through both the willingness of sufficient numbers of Chinese people to move to Canada, and no significant change in Canada's immigration policies.

Canada's immigration policies are unlikely to change in the short term I'd say.

As for people moving from China, I'd say that even if conditions improve there, there is so much population that there will always be enough people leaving for Canada to sustain a decent level of immigration to Canada. And replace those kids who are assimilating.

Provided Canada still wants to accept them. Which I think it will.

While, not as big in population as China obviously, with it and India being the only 1 billion-plus countries, there are large countries like Germany (82 million), Japan (127 million) and Russia (147 million) no longer sending that many immigrants to the western hemisphere even if they did in the past.

On the other hand, some large countries like Indonesia (262 million), Brazil (208 million), Nigeria (193 million) and Bangladesh (164 million) are not really sending large numbers to Canada in proportion to their population.

Usually countries like Japan or Germany (or the EU countries more broadly) usually stop sending large masses of immigrants once they're wealthy, developed and industrialized, democratic, safe etc. but it's a matter of if this will happen to China anytime soon. Some countries like Germany or Italy within not more than a few generations even flipped from being countries whose issue was masses of people trying to emigrate away then, versus masses of people trying to immigrate now.

Then, there are countries like Nigeria, nearing 200 million and historically sending very few (voluntary) immigrants to western countries but now gradually doing so. I've read that the very poorest countries and the very richest countries generally do not send lots of immigrants -- those in the rich ones have little incentive to do so, and those in the very poor ones, say the Congo, have a hard time having the wherewithal to set up a new life in industrialized countries, and often getting such countries to take them in (besides refugees, if such nations are being generous, and even so, not very often). So apart from refugees, it's the poor, but rising/industrializing countries, like China, India etc. that have some means to move (and often transfer skills/education in the old country to the new) and set up shop in places like the US, Canada etc.

So, it's hard to tell China's trajectory as an immigrant-sending nation in the next few decades. If I recall, China is no longer the top sending country to Canada (it's India and the Philippines that's ahead I think). But there's always uncertainties, such as if China faces unrest, and a new wave of refugees is unleashed, like mentioned previously, or if China will be able to develop as well as become democratic in future generations.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by Acajack

At this point what is sustaining the Chinese language presence in Vancouver is the fact that immigration of Chinese-raised people fluent in the languages (spoken and written) is more than compensating for the Canadian-raised Chinese kids who are assimilating.

In a sense every 1 kid who assimilates is being replaced by 1+ new arrival.

Assimilation is happening. It's just being obscured by multiple waves of immigrants from the same country, not all of whom see themselves as sharing one culture, apparently.

https://www.economist.com/news/americas/...ares-against-mandarin-long-live-cantopop

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2017/10...hanges-in-scarboroughs-little-china.html

The Cantonese-speaking descendants of the older wave of Chinese immigrants are already seeing themselves as "old-timers", whose culture will disappear and be replaced by the newest wave of Mandarin speakers as the face of "Chinese Canadians".

Apparently, since Cantonese (or related forms) was traditionally the language of the Chinese diaspora, but now language standardization back in the "old country" and the return of Hong Kong to China is already starting to have Mandarin replace Cantonese "back home", coupled with the decline of Cantonese in the diaspora, means some foresee Cantonese worldwide on the wane (though as the article says, there are still "70 to 100 million Cantonese speakers around the world right now", so in raw numbers it's still obviously still really large.)

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-co...pear-says-ubc-linguist-zoe-lam-1.3053933

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Acajack

At this point what is sustaining the Chinese language presence in Vancouver is the fact that immigration of Chinese-raised people fluent in the languages (spoken and written) is more than compensating for the Canadian-raised Chinese kids who are assimilating.

In a sense every 1 kid who assimilates is being replaced by 1+ new arrival.

I think this traditional way of thinking about immigration only partly captures what is happening. Yes, one factor is that there is a high rate of people immigrating. If the rate of newcomers exceeds the rate of assimilation, the imported culture grows in importance. But more has changed than just that.

Some Chinese immigrants to Vancouver are not really immigrants in the traditional sense. They still have business interests in China. They expect that their children may go work in China after being educated partly in Canada. They buy property in Canada to hedge against the risk of their investments in China.

This trend isn't really based on ethnicity or country of origin, but China has so many newly wealthy people who want to move money abroad that it is a major trend. There are also investor-type immigrants from other countries, and there are immigrants who come from China in 2017 and fit the more traditional profile.

I do not expect this group to assimilate to Canadian culture as quickly, or identify as Canadian in the same way as immigrants who are moving here to work and expect to base their whole life and that of future generations here.

[bless-u]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2017/10...hanges-in-scarboroughs-little-china.html

"Many newcomers are now blue-collar immigrants from mainland China, the 2016 census shows, whereas the area’s “old-timers” tend to be middle- or upper-class families with roots in Hong Kong."

This article confirms my personal observation that Toronto, particularly in Scarborough, is flooded with blue-collar type immigrants from Mainland China in recent years, or longer. They were probably working in factories or construction sites back in China, I imagine. Their arrival has greatly changed the social fabric of the area.

The changes had taken place slowly over the years that it didn't seem as dramatic and apparent to the locals, at first. But for someone who had left Toronto for a long period of time and returned recently, this change appeared to be quite drastic and surprising, shocking even.

One couldn't help but wonder how did they successfully get pass the immigration system, what sort of qualification they used for the application, and so on. They are obviously very different from the super rich type Chinese immigrants in BC; they are unlikely the investor type. I doubt if they are entrepreneurs who create jobs in Canada, and they don't seem to possess any professional skills the country is looking for. It baffles me quite a bit.

It was extremely tough to bring family members in to the country 20 years ago. The immigration department was exceedingly strict back then. I suppose it'd all changed in the past years. That's the only probable explanation for this phenomenon.

[theman23]

Originally Posted by bless-u

"Many newcomers are now blue-collar immigrants from mainland China, the 2016 census shows, whereas the area’s “old-timers” tend to be middle- or upper-class families with roots in Hong Kong."

This article confirms my personal observation that Toronto, particularly in Scarborough, is flooded with blue-collar type immigrants from Mainland China in recent years, or longer. They were probably working in factories or construction sites back in China, I imagine. Their arrival has greatly changed the social fabric of the area.

The changes had taken place slowly over the years that it didn't seem as dramatic and apparent to the locals, at first. But for someone who had left Toronto for a long period of time and returned recently, this change appeared to be quite drastic and surprising, shocking even.

One couldn't help but wonder how did they successfully get pass the immigration system, what sort of qualification they used for the application, and so on. They are obviously very different from the super rich type Chinese immigrants in BC; they are unlikely the investor type. I doubt if they are entrepreneurs who create jobs in Canada, and they don't seem to possess any professional skills the country is looking for. It baffles me quite a bit.

It was extremely tough to bring family members in to the country 20 years ago. The immigration department was exceedingly strict back then. I suppose it'd all changed in the past years. That's the only probable explanation for this phenomenon.

That's a huge presumption on your part. Exactly how are you getting to know these people that you can declare they don't possess any useful skills, or that they somehow had it easier immigrating into the country?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

I think this traditional way of thinking about immigration only partly captures what is happening. Yes, one factor is that there is a high rate of people immigrating. If the rate of newcomers exceeds the rate of assimilation, the imported culture grows in importance. But more has changed than just that.

Some Chinese immigrants to Vancouver are not really immigrants in the traditional sense. They still have business interests in China. They expect that their children may go work in China after being educated partly in Canada. They buy property in Canada to hedge against the risk of their investments in China.

This trend isn't really based on ethnicity or country of origin, but China has so many newly wealthy people who want to move money abroad that it is a major trend. There are also investor-type immigrants from other countries, and there are immigrants who come from China in 2017 and fit the more traditional profile.

I do not expect this group to assimilate to Canadian culture as quickly, or identify as Canadian in the same way as immigrants who are moving here to work and expect to base their whole life and that of future generations here.

What you describe is almost like an "expat plus" status. I.e. they live as expats but with all the benefits of citizenship (since Canada is pretty open about handing it out).

Obviously adults born and raised in China who live this way won't likely integrate much into Canadian society, but their children depending on when they arrive won't necessarily be the same as their parents.

I honestly don't know what support mechanisms if any these people would have in place to ensure their kids are culturally and linguistically functionally Chinese, but you'd have to do something extra in order for that to happen if they're going to be living in Vancouver for most of their childhood and youth.

I know that in Ottawa-Gatineau there is what is called "Lebanese school" on weekend mornings where some kids go to learn the fundamentals of reading and writing Arabic. I am sure other communities have this as well - and I wouldn't be surprised if the Chinese community has something similar in many cities. That said, while several of my kids' friends have gone to these schools, almost all have dropped out by their early teens. They probably still have notions in the language but I highly doubt they'd be plug and play in an Arabic educational or professional setting in Beirut. Each and every one is way better in French than Arabic even if they speak Arabic at home (and in many cases it's French 1st, English 2nd, Arabic 3rd).

Also, I suppose that the Chinese community in Vancouver might have a number of private schools that teach in Mandarin or maybe Cantonese and English fairly equally, but only a small fraction of all the Chinese kids in the city would attend those, I'd guess.

[Acajack]

As a follow-up to my previous post, I suppose that if the "aloof Chinese" population continues to grow in Vancouver, one possible scenario is that it could become a bit like some cities in the Gulf states, or Singapore. Where expats with few durable ties to the country make up a huge chunk of the population. It would be interesting to see how this would be handled, as Canada perhaps more than any country is very open to people having little to no ties to the country's culture being considered "totally Canadian".

[casper]

Originally Posted by giallo

I'm not talking about big western brands though. I'm talking about foreign-owned and operated cafes, restaurants and even real estate agencies that cater to foreigners. The language issue has nothing to do with prestige, and more to do with money and practicality.

There are many foreign-run businesses here that cater to the expat market, and only the expat market - Shanghai alone has over 300,000 expats. They don't print advertisements in Chinese newspapers or publications. It's a money pit as most local Chinese aren't interested in the food they are selling (the younger locals are, but most of them can read English) or paying the prices for the lane houses they are renting. Go to Pudong, and you'll see real estate agencies that only operate in English for the purpose of trying to land those sweet "expat package" foreigners that arrive to work at large multinational companies, and have rental budgets of $10,000USD+.

The Japanese businesses here are even more exclusive. While even a Turkish restaurant will chose English as its main or only language of operation, Japanese businesses (especially in Hong Qiao district) don't even bother attracting anyone but Japanese people. Not a word of English or a Chinese character anywhere (they never used Kanji on the signs outside making it difficult for Chinese to read).

What's happening in Vancouver is natural when you have a large immigrant group from one country coming in. The language issues will fade in time as each generation becomes more "naturalized".

What you describe happens the world over....

In Vancouver, Commercial drive use to be like this (but in Italian).

Go to Sothern Europe (Portugal and Spain) and you find the British and German expat community served by expats.

Go to the correct areas of Florida and you find the Quebec expat community server by expats.

The government should have better things to do with our tax dollars than waist its time on sign laws. Redirect that the sign patrol money to addressing the homeless problem....

[casper]

Originally Posted by Acajack

What you describe is almost like an "expat plus" status. I.e. they live as expats but with all the benefits of citizenship (since Canada is pretty open about handing it out).

Obviously adults born and raised in China who live this way won't likely integrate much into Canadian society, but their children depending on when they arrive won't necessarily be the same as their parents.

I honestly don't know what support mechanisms if any these people would have in place to ensure their kids are culturally and linguistically functionally Chinese, but you'd have to do something extra in order for that to happen if they're going to be living in Vancouver for most of their childhood and youth.

I know that in Ottawa-Gatineau there is what is called "Lebanese school" on weekend mornings where some kids go to learn the fundamentals of reading and writing Arabic. I am sure other communities have this as well - and I wouldn't be surprised if the Chinese community has something similar in many cities. That said, while several of my kids' friends have gone to these schools, almost all have dropped out by their early teens. They probably still have notions in the language but I highly doubt they'd be plug and play in an Arabic educational or professional setting in Beirut. Each and every one is way better in French than Arabic even if they speak Arabic at home (and in many cases it's French 1st, English 2nd, Arabic 3rd).

Also, I suppose that the Chinese community in Vancouver might have a number of private schools that teach in Mandarin or maybe Cantonese and English fairly equally, but only a small fraction of all the Chinese kids in the city would attend those, I'd guess.

Growing up in Vancouver (30 years ago) there was a Saturday morning program doing exactly this. Portuguese, Italian and Cantonese classes taught by expats.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by Acajack

What you describe is almost like an "expat plus" status. I.e. they live as expats but with all the benefits of citizenship (since Canada is pretty open about handing it out).

Obviously adults born and raised in China who live this way won't likely integrate much into Canadian society, but their children depending on when they arrive won't necessarily be the same as their parents.

I honestly don't know what support mechanisms if any these people would have in place to ensure their kids are culturally and linguistically functionally Chinese, but you'd have to do something extra in order for that to happen if they're going to be living in Vancouver for most of their childhood and youth.

Originally Posted by Acajack

As a follow-up to my previous post, I suppose that if the "aloof Chinese" population continues to grow in Vancouver, one possible scenario is that it could become a bit like some cities in the Gulf states, or Singapore. Where expats with few durable ties to the country make up a huge chunk of the population. It would be interesting to see how this would be handled, as Canada perhaps more than any country is very open to people having little to no ties to the country's culture being considered "totally Canadian".

By definition expats, with their status in the host country being only a temporary one, are implied to have an intention to return. If they don't and do decide to stay, the expats (even, if they have the benefits of "expat plus" status, or as people more critical of it would say, Canadians of convenience) would then become immigrants.

I don't know if there have been enough generations of either the most recent Mainland Chinese "expats" to Canada, or the western expats to Dubai or Singapore to know if they are comparable.

If they return to China, and don't come back, that's their call. If they settle or their kids do, then they'll just be Canadians (of the first, then second generation etc.). I don't see "expat status" being able to last multiple generations (and even in the cases like Dubai and Singapore, the rich westerners haven't lived or had kids and grandkids live in expat circles for many generations, it's just expats coming and going, right?).

Expats who stay, and whose children stay, and whose grandchildren stay etc. are just immigrants (sure they may be rich immigrants, they may be poor immigrants), but no longer expats. If they do intend to keep their culture "alive" through the generations while staying, it's no longer an expat community but an ethnic enclave, or perhaps, maybe in old-fashioned terms a bloc settlement. They'll be people who keep their culture alive within Canada, rather than back in the homeland. But we know that bloc settlements have a track record of eventually assimilating for the most part anyways.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I honestly don't know what support mechanisms if any these people would have in place to ensure their kids are culturally and linguistically functionally Chinese, but you'd have to do something extra in order for that to happen if they're going to be living in Vancouver for most of their childhood and youth.

I know that in Ottawa-Gatineau there is what is called "Lebanese school" on weekend mornings where some kids go to learn the fundamentals of reading and writing Arabic. I am sure other communities have this as well - and I wouldn't be surprised if the Chinese community has something similar in many cities. That said, while several of my kids' friends have gone to these schools, almost all have dropped out by their early teens. They probably still have notions in the language but I highly doubt they'd be plug and play in an Arabic educational or professional setting in Beirut. Each and every one is way better in French than Arabic even if they speak Arabic at home (and in many cases it's French 1st, English 2nd, Arabic 3rd).

Also, I suppose that the Chinese community in Vancouver might have a number of private schools that teach in Mandarin or maybe Cantonese and English fairly equally, but only a small fraction of all the Chinese kids in the city would attend those, I'd guess.

I don't see these private schools as being anything analogous to "American" expat schools where the parents really do want to keep their kids in a "bubble" away from the locals, and have the kids socialize with other expats only.

The Chinese and Arabic community, try as they might, and as proud as they are of their old world cultures, actually have a hard time preventing their kids from the assimilation that's going to happen within the host society. Otherwise, we'd see that these private schools are full of second, third, fourth generation students of the community, rather than be used by the new immigrants to keep their kids immersed in the homeland's language/culture for only the generation or two that they need the language to talk to newcomer family members.