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  #581  
Old Posted Feb 1, 2018, 5:40 PM
s211 s211 is offline
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These too many posts in this thread to keep up with it all!

Off the top of their head, does anybody have a sense of how much capacity we could pick up by just changing the seat configurations to face the middle of the cars, i.e. NYC style as an example?
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  #582  
Old Posted Feb 2, 2018, 12:17 AM
twoNeurons twoNeurons is offline
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Originally Posted by s211 View Post
These too many posts in this thread to keep up with it all!

Off the top of their head, does anybody have a sense of how much capacity we could pick up by just changing the seat configurations to face the middle of the cars, i.e. NYC style as an example?
I was thinking the exact same thing.

As a side point... I don't think we'll see a relief line along Arbutus that reaches Richmond. Rather, I think it will head east along the existing rail ROW south of Marine.
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  #583  
Old Posted Feb 2, 2018, 1:11 AM
deasine deasine is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s211 View Post
These too many posts in this thread to keep up with it all!

Off the top of their head, does anybody have a sense of how much capacity we could pick up by just changing the seat configurations to face the middle of the cars, i.e. NYC style as an example?
The gains won't be material. The MKIIs went with a 2-1 configuration because it was found that the gap still enabled 2 rows of standees, while a 1-1 side configuration would still only enable 2 rows of standees.

Keep in mind a 1-1 side seating configuration is really 1.5-1.5 because of knee clearances.
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  #584  
Old Posted Feb 2, 2018, 3:01 AM
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  #585  
Old Posted Feb 2, 2018, 3:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Dave2 View Post
Huh? King George and VCC-Clark are terminus stations with side platforms.
Ooops I stand corrected. Clearly i've never been to either station. How do people know which platform to go up to?
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  #586  
Old Posted Feb 2, 2018, 5:19 AM
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Originally Posted by dleung View Post
Ooops I stand corrected. Clearly i've never been to either station. How do people know which platform to go up to?
At VCC-Clark trains either switch platforms via the tail track, or enter and leave via the same track. Either way the same outbound platform is always used.
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  #587  
Old Posted Feb 2, 2018, 6:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Reecemartin View Post
The Canada Line is crowded enough for me to think the corridor already has latent demand, this is typical of any line which becomes fairly crowded in peak. People naturally either choose alternate routes or change their commute time. The second people notice that peak trains are less crowded they will go back to the most advantageous commute time.
Let's not call the Canada "crowded" unless this starts happening. And even if it was, people will take it so long as it's fast and frequent; after all, you're trade space for convenience every time you take transit.

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Originally Posted by Reecemartin View Post
One solution would be to do a major expansion of the downtown stations as has been mentioned, but again as I've said circulation is already a problem. VCC being the most clear example: whenever a train empties into the station the vertical access points (of which there are only 2) become heavily congested. So even if you add capacity you will have chokepoints on the stairs/escalators (even if the platform isn't crowded).
I assume you mean Vancouver City Centre, rather than VCC-Clark? The latter is on the Millennium Line and nowhere near peak usage. The problem is more to do with escalators being designed for a constant flow of people rather than a surge all at once; two would be nice, but even with three or four, you'll still see people bunching up below them.

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Originally Posted by Reecemartin View Post
If we went for longitudinal seating we could even add luggage racks above the seats (a la Japan). In addition adding spanish solutions at VCC and other island platforms could speed things up.
Overhead luggage is a safety hazard, given the significantly narrower SkyTrain cars; been bumped on the head/neck/shoulder too many times as it is on airplanes. A Spanish solution at City Centre would be nice if there's enough room (which there probably isn't - hazard of contracting to the lowest bidder).

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Originally Posted by Reecemartin View Post
In terms of the thought that we can definitely carry 15,000 at peak that's very much wishful thinking. Just because the stated max capacity is 15k doesn't mean it can be achieved in reality, especially as the trains become more crowded and dwell times grow. Lengthening the platforms may help but, definitely not without 50m trains though (everyone still has to move in to access the doors).
Already discussed and dismissed over the last two pages. The trains and platforms will get less crowded, dwell times will remain unchanged, lengthening the platforms achieves nothing without additional access points.

Even if the actual capacity ends up being something like 14K/hr, that's still about as much as the Expo does right now. No problem.
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  #588  
Old Posted Feb 2, 2018, 6:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut View Post
Let's not call the Canada "crowded" unless this starts happening.
That's hilarious in a sad kind of way. You know, I've always figured that the primary purpose of those white-gloved attendants was to give social license for the passengers to crush into their traveling companions. In any other situation that kind of behaviour between strangers in Japan would be scandalous. But the difficulty they had in getting the doors closed shows that they really do need to shove those people in there, kind of like trying to sit on a suitcase in order to get it closed.
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  #589  
Old Posted Feb 2, 2018, 7:06 AM
officedweller officedweller is offline
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A few points to remember.

The 50 m platforms assisted the design of the SYSTEM in several ways.

- Short platforms were combined with wider 3.0m trains (same as TTC subway).
LRT trains are 2.6m wide (same as MKII SkyTrain).
Narrower trains would require longer platforms and have less internal flexibility for luggage and bikes.

- Short platforms allowed close station spacing at shallow depth while complying with the maximum grade between stations.
Even then, some platforms on the Canada Line have a 0.5% grade - they are not level.
i.e. the station box for Broadway City Hall Station is practically under the pavement at its north end.
Extending the south end by 30m means digging deeper into the hillside, increasing the grade/slope to King Edward Station.
Extending to the north means a deeper station would have been required.

Here's a graphic representation (although I have centred the 50m and longer platforms (measurements not exact)).
Note how the shorter platforms allow a shallower grade - that also means less wear and tear on the vehicles
(Canada is steel on steel for traction, not LIM).



If you have longer platforms, in order to achieve shallower grade between platforms, the tunnels would need to be deep bored.
(i.e. in the above diagram, the platform on the left would have to be deeper)
Deep bored tunnels mean deeper stations / more escalators / longer access times (like the downtown Canada Line stations).
If the Canada Line under Cambie were deep bored, there would be no future station at 33rd Ave. (it would be too deep through Little Mountain rock), King Edward Station would be down more flights of escalators, but there would have been the possibility of a deep station at 16th Ave.
The system as designed with shallow tunnels does not allow a station at 16th Ave. because the grades would be too steep on either side to King Edward and Broadway City Hall.

Last edited by officedweller; Feb 2, 2018 at 7:34 AM.
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  #590  
Old Posted Feb 2, 2018, 7:53 AM
officedweller officedweller is offline
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PS - If you haven't reviewed historic reference material regarding the design and selection of the Canada Line, here's the page at TransLink's website with all the documents:

https://www.translink.ca/site-info/docum...B16E6D21B-BF1E-4B78-B31E-B7522CE29546%7D

Of interest - this is the reference technical report i.e. suggested methods / designs (BEFORE bids were submitted).
Note that Dunsmuir Station and Nelson Station were [unfortunately] later combined into Robson Station for the RFP.

https://www.translink.ca/-/media/Documen...nt-Study--Vancouver-Segment-Volume-1.pdf

Last edited by officedweller; Feb 2, 2018 at 8:08 AM.
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  #591  
Old Posted Feb 2, 2018, 8:37 AM
officedweller officedweller is offline
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For example, here are some "reference" alignment studies conducted before the bidders became involved.
i.e. just examples of what was possible, not what would be built.
These studies assumed 80m platforms and bored tunnels.

Overall reference alignment study:


https://www.translink.ca/-/media/Documen...nt-Study--Vancouver-Segment-Volume-1.pdf


https://www.translink.ca/-/media/Documen...nt-Study--Vancouver-Segment-Volume-1.pdf

False Creek Crossing on a bridge - to a tunnel or an elevated guideway to an elevated Broadway Station:


https://www.translink.ca/-/media/Documen...nt-Study--Vancouver-Segment-Volume-1.pdf

Tunnel UNDER the Dunsmuir SkyTrain tunnel (with Nelson Station and Dunsmuir Station):
Note the cross-hatched areas representing underground structures
(Howe St. Tunnel, Law Courts Building, Pacific Centre, Waterfront Centre)


https://www.translink.ca/-/media/Documen...nt-Study--Vancouver-Segment-Volume-1.pdf

Tunnel OVER the Dunsmuir SkyTrain tunnel (with Nelson Station and Dunsmuir Station):


https://www.translink.ca/-/media/Documen...nt-Study--Vancouver-Segment-Volume-1.pdf

Robson Station instead of Nelson and Dunsmuir Stations:
Robson Station was later shifted to Georgia St. to connect with West Vancouver buses.


https://www.translink.ca/-/media/Documen...nt-Study--Vancouver-Segment-Volume-1.pdf

Here's the walkway to the Cruise Ship Terminal that was deleted from final requirements as a budget item:


https://www.translink.ca/-/media/Documen...nt-Study--Vancouver-Segment-Volume-1.pdf

Last edited by officedweller; Feb 2, 2018 at 8:47 AM.
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  #592  
Old Posted Feb 2, 2018, 9:33 AM
officedweller officedweller is offline
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Remember, these were the proposals that made it to the Best and Final Offer Stage.
The alternate proposals were to appease Richmond's desire for an at-grade system on No. 3 Rd.
Note the "Traffic Impacts" of the at-grade options.

RAVExpress (Bombardier) had the line in open trench in the middle of Cambie St. between 49th Ave. and 63rd Ave.
and in the middle (not the side) of No. 3 Rd. (meaning tall mezzanine / Brentwood-like stations).


https://www.translink.ca/-/media/Documen...age/BAFO-Reports-and-Recommendations.pdf


https://www.translink.ca/-/media/Documen...age/BAFO-Reports-and-Recommendations.pdf
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  #593  
Old Posted Feb 2, 2018, 9:34 PM
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  #594  
Old Posted Feb 2, 2018, 11:18 PM
officedweller officedweller is offline
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Originally Posted by Reecemartin View Post
@officedweller good info! Big disadvantage of traditional propulsion is poor climbing grades.
We're seeing that in winter with ice on the North Arm Bridge approach - though no problems this year I don't think.
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  #595  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2018, 1:40 AM
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great context officedweller.

The grades definitely play a role in platform length in order to maintain a mostly level platform.

Interesting to see the old docs from the RFP stage.
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  #596  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2018, 6:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Reecemartin View Post
Not being at Tokyo levels, is not the same as not being crowded. The levels Tokyo is at would be totally unsafe without people on the platform and controlling the trains or platform doors.
And we're nowhere near that level. Nor are we seeing people regularly queuing for the next train, like you would for the 99, or for Singapore or Hong Kong's MRT/MTR during rush hour (neither of which are overcapacity either).

Yes, the Canada Line is busy. And that's a good thing, because that means it's doing as well as the Expo or any other metro network on the planet; if you have enough room to take your phone out, that generally means undercapacity.
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  #597  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2018, 6:51 AM
dpogue dpogue is offline
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New Translink RFP:
Quote:
TransLink is seeking an experienced consultant firm to provide design services for the Capstan Station on the Canada Line.
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  #598  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2018, 3:49 AM
ClaytonA ClaytonA is offline
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Completely agreed on the 41st Ave part. People keep telling me it's needed but I rode the bus all the way to the Jewish Community Center and there was only one block with anything more than a storey or two in height. A B-Line should be fine.
10 years ago Cambie had much less multistorey buildings too. There are multiple municipal election candidates floating ideas that would dramatically loosen zoning limits preventing densification along BRT routes like 41 Ave.

Quote:
...He’d rezone the whole city at once as part of a big plan that would obviate the need for spot zoning. And in doing so, make once-sanctified single-family zones places for multiple dwellings. ...
https://pricetags.wordpress.com/2017/10/06/civic-byelection-candidates-sfu-city-conversations/

I'd vote for someone actually tying the extra density to transit service increases like the BRT's. Best transportation plan is a land use plan. Land use plans like the Cambie Corridor's should be preceding/concurrent with the BRT investments in the next couple years.
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  #599  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2018, 4:06 AM
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Rode the Canada Line everyday during rush hour over the past two weeks. Still doesn't feel as over capacity as the south line in Calgary were passengers are so crammed they sometimes fall out when the doors open.
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  #600  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2018, 4:59 AM
officedweller officedweller is offline
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Originally Posted by Doug View Post
Rode the Canada Line everyday during rush hour over the past two weeks. Still doesn't feel as over capacity as the south line in Calgary were passengers are so crammed they sometimes fall out when the doors open.
Probably because of the wider cars on Canada Line.
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