New Downtown Calgary Arena

[240glt]

Originally Posted by Socguy

You are correct that it's a massive debacle but one side shoulders the vast majority of the blame and it's the Canadian Professional Rodeo Association.

I disagree. CPRA is entitled to negotiate anything they want. Yes they may have had too high expectations but ultimately it's Edmonton that lost the event. If the city hadn't signed such a bad deal with Katz, the CFR probably would have stayed at the Coliseum. So yes, Edmonton lost out. Something Edmonton is really good at doing.

As for economic activity, Edmonton still has Farmfair, they just swapped out the CFR event for a PBR event.

OEG has stated the PBR will not come back next year. It's done. It lost up to a million bucks here. Farm Fair won't last too much longer as a stand alone event, especially with the CFR in Red Deer... most people who would normally go to FarmFair will be in Red Deer

[O-tacular]

Bringing this back on topic to a new DT Calgary arena, what do you guys think of the Olympic commitee approving the Saddledome for future games? I can accept that if it’s a second facility in conjunction with a new arena but otherwise that’s ridiculous. I opposed CSEC’s overreach on the issue this election but feel there would be no better time to build something new than when the feds and the province are willing to shoulder part of the load. This would be a wasted opportunity if we get the bid and don’t build new infrastructure imo. If that is the plan then Nenshi is pettier than I thought.

[Socguy]

Of course the 'Dome is fine for hockey. I've been shouting it since the Flames first floated that silly NEXT proposal. The Saddledome was a 20,000 seat facility with a true Olympic sized ice surface. It's not like the physics of ice has changed since it was built. Bonus: It's already in the right location!

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/ca...ioc-visit-saddledome-bid-games-1.4500033

Now, should the City bid and should Calgary win the Olympics obviously the Saddledome along with the Olympic oval and other existing venues will get a facelift and that would be entirely appropriate. I would far rather spend money on improving things like transportation infrastructure in the City to better handle Olympic sized crowds, which would be far better for Calgary in the long run that duplicating/rebuilding a bunch of fully functional facilities.

(Obviously the Flames will hate this idea since their drive for a new arena has less to do with actually playing hockey than it does with eliminating less expensive viewing options in order to replace them with pricey premium ones.)

IMO Calgary should be a leader for the world in showing how the Olympics can be done without bankrupting a small country. What better contrast to the outrageously ostentatious displays put on by petty dictators while their people are denied basic rights. Instead, Calgary should showcase it's commitment to sustainable, inclusive environmentally friendly design. We want Olympic tourists to be able to see themselves actually living and working here instead of just popping by for the spectacle. Because a city that's good for people is also good for business. Now getting the world to see Calgary in that light would be an Olympics done right!

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by Socguy

Of course the 'Dome is fine for hockey. I've been shouting it since the Flames first floated that silly NEXT proposal. The Saddledome was a 20,000 seat facility with a true Olympic sized ice surface. It's not like the physics of ice has changed since it was built. Bonus: It's already in the right location!

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/ca...ioc-visit-saddledome-bid-games-1.4500033

Now, should the City bid and should Calgary win the Olympics obviously the Saddledome along with the Olympic oval and other existing venues will get a facelift and that would be entirely appropriate. I would far rather spend money on improving things like transportation infrastructure in the City to better handle Olympic sized crowds, which would be far better for Calgary in the long run that duplicating/rebuilding a bunch of fully functional facilities.

(Obviously the Flames will hate this idea since their drive for a new arena has less to do with actually playing hockey than it does with eliminating less expensive viewing options in order to replace them with pricey premium ones.)

IMO Calgary should be a leader for the world in showing how the Olympics can be done without bankrupting a small country. What better contrast to the outrageously ostentatious displays put on by petty dictators while their people are denied basic rights. Instead, Calgary should showcase it's commitment to sustainable, inclusive environmentally friendly design. We want Olympic tourists to be able to see themselves actually living and working here instead of just popping by for the spectacle. Because a city that's good for people is also good for business. Now getting the world to see Calgary in that light would be an Olympics done right!

I’m all for improving current facilities like the Oval and the ski jumps and not blowing the budget like Sochi did but your proposal is a tad... boring, not to mention short sighted. Vancouver managed to build legacy facilities and also extend the skytrain to the airport. We can too.

If we host an Olympics that looks exactly like our last did in ‘88 I will be embarassed. I’m all for reigning in largesse but the Saddledome does have real issues such as bathrooms and concourse layout to say nothing of terrible accoustics. To not build a new arena to serve in conjunction with the Dome for the games would be a lost opportunity and extremely short sighted. If that happens I can see the Flames actually leaving as it would be a massive middle finger to the entire negotiating process. We have to stop believing our city is so fantastic that we can’t ever give incentives. This zero sum game won’t work long term.

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

I’m all for improving current facilities like the Oval and the ski jumps and not blowing the budget like Sochi did but your proposal is a tad... boring, not to mention short sighted. Vancouver managed to build legacy facilities and also extend the skytrain to the airport. We can too.

If we host an Olympics that looks exactly like our last did in ‘88 I will be embarassed. I’m all for reigning in largesse but the Saddledome does have real issues such as bathrooms and concourse layout to say nothing of terrible accoustics. To not build a new arena to serve in conjunction with the Dome for the games would be a lost opportunity and extremely short sighted. If that happens I can see the Flames actually leaving as it would be a massive middle finger to the entire negotiating process. We have to stop believing our city is so fantastic that we can’t ever give incentives. This zero sum game won’t work long term.

I agree. Even worse is that not all of the events would be held here. If we're going to host the Olympics we need at least to get a new modern arena, new and/or completely renovated speed skating oval and major improvements to the ski jump facilities so they meet current standards. What's the purpose of hosting the games again if they are going to be inferior to what we did 38 years earlier?

[CrossedTheTracks]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

... we need at least to get ... new and/or completely renovated speed skating oval...

Why? (Especially, "why new?") I'm at the Oval up to 3 times a week, with one of my kids in speed skating. I can't say I know how well its mechanical systems are holding up, but the place isn't obviously falling apart. Parts of it need a refurb, certainly (crash pads come to mind). I've heard it "needs" more seats. Why? Sure, would be nice, but that's an inadequate justification on its own. The roof was rebuilt in 2011 -- I presume it's still good for a significant number of years to come.

If you can give me a serious reason, I'm happy to be enlightened.

[craner]

Originally Posted by Rollerstud98

Yes, ship what will be the highest profile event at the olympics if held here to another city, seems like a great idea!

That is exactly what Nenshi has stated as his idea (in all seriousness - not tongue-in-cheek).

[suburbia]

Originally Posted by Rollerstud98

Yes, ship what will be the highest profile event at the olympics if held here to another city, seems like a great idea!

Are they seriously sending speed skating, hockey, free style skiing, down hill skiing and figure skating to Whistler? Whaaaaat?

Name three members of the Canadian ski jumping team without looking it up? When was the last time Canada won a medal in the sport?

[O-tacular]

Ok this is starting to sound worse and worse. That’s just embarassing. If all Nenshi wants to use the Olympics for is to fast track lrt why even bother? Let’s see some vision!

[HomeInMyShoes]

In all seriousness, with NHLers no longer in the Olympics, the sports I most want to watch now are the skiing events, the snowboarding and the big air.

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by HomeInMyShoes

In all seriousness, with NHLers no longer in the Olympics, the sports I most want to watch now are the skiing events, the snowboarding and the big air.

So does this mean you don't care about the arena component? Keep in mind the NHL will more than likely send players to Olympics again in the future (though I suppose that won't matter for our arena if they don't play in 2026). We'll see though.

[O-tacular]

I have this sinking feeling that Nenshi is going to dig in his heels and double down in retribution against the Flames. That won't be productive and could actually see the team move. Building a new arena with the Olympics bid is the most common sense solution to the impasse. Hell, if we're getting federal and provincial help why wouldn't you do it except out of spite?

[HomeInMyShoes]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

So does this mean you don't care about the arena component? Keep in mind the NHL will more than likely send players to Olympics again in the future (though I suppose that won't matter for our arena if they don't play in 2026). We'll see though.

Well, the CBA is up for renewal after 2021-2022. So 2026 is the year they might play, unless the inevitable lockout happens earlier. I expect a season and a half lost to the next round. It's going to be way uglier than the previous round.

Truth be told. I'm not really sure where the arena stands for me. I'd like to see Calgary get a new arena. I am not excited about the use of federal funds for the Olympics so that Ken and company get a new arena and just fleece a different set of taxpayers. We all know who is going to get the most benefit out of the arena in the long term.

I do know that Curling is also no longer a demonstration sport as in 1988 and is probably needing a larger venue than the Max Bell Arena.

Nenshi might dig his heels in which would be sad, but I still blame King and the stuipidity of how they delivered the first round of "look at this great idea."

The legacy of Calgary's original games was excellent. I believe Nenshi expects nothing less if Calgary hosts again, but he knows he'll have a limited budget to do it and the list of wants would be quite large. So there's going to be tradeoffs because of that. Who knows what those tradeoffs will be. Alphine events, hockey, curling, speed-skating, athlete village, transportation. Without at least a pseudo-plan of what it looks like it is hard to make any estimate as to where the money should go at this point.

[Calgarian]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

I have this sinking feeling that Nenshi is going to dig in his heels and double down in retribution against the Flames. That won't be productive and could actually see the team move. Building a new arena with the Olympics bid is the most common sense solution to the impasse. Hell, if we're getting federal and provincial help why wouldn't you do it except out of spite?

Nenshi should dig his heels in, what the Flames are demanding is completely unreasonable. The city has a proposal where they are willing to pay 1/3 of the cost of the arena, and I think that's fair. The city needs to understand that they aren't going to recover the money though, that's the deal breaker for the Flames.

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by Calgarian

Nenshi should dig his heels in, what the Flames are demanding is completely unreasonable. The city has a proposal where they are willing to pay 1/3 of the cost of the arena, and I think that's fair. The city needs to understand that they aren't going to recover the money though, that's the deal breaker for the Flames.

I see three scenarios:

1) The current offer where the city pays a third, the Flames pay a third and the CRL pays the rest independently from any Olympic's bids (the chances of that happening though are roughly -100%). I agree that the city would need to adjust their expectations for repayment.

2) A new arena gets built for the Olympics with all taxpayer money. In this scenario the city should expect repayment to the tune of at least what was originally offered by the Flames in the form of facility rent and or property taxes. Maybe they even get partial proceeds from events. I'm sure CSEC would looove that lol. Alternatively they forego development rights for the area.

3) CSEC could pony up to fund part of the new arena like the good corporate citizens that they are and get free advertising and a stake in said facility after the Olympics. Chances of this happening are -110%.

Ultimately I think we need a new facility to replace the Dome and you can't get a much better opportunity than if we get the Olympic's bid. The city shouldn't be petty and bar this possibility simply because the Flames stand to profit from it afterward but CSEC needs to pay back a fair portion (yet to be determined) after the fact through property tax and or rent.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

Ultimately I think we need a new facility to replace the Dome and you can't get a much better opportunity than if we get the Olympic's bid. The city shouldn't be petty and bar this possibility simply because the Flames stand to profit from it afterward but CSEC needs to pay back a fair portion (yet to be determined) after the fact through property tax and or rent.

I agree with the caveat - CSEC needs to play ball too. This is a good opportunity to reset, but if the Flames come back with their ridiculous demands and claims of how they would be paying 150%, they can go away. Hopefully they saw how unpopular their position was last time and take a more reasonable stance.

[WhipperSnapper]

The Winter Olympics aren't going pay for a new arena so it's irrelevant without getting the Flames to lower their expectations.

[geotag277]

Seems like a new arena isn't even necessary, considering the IOC themselves have come out and said the arena is fine. The main problem seems to be related to ski jumping, and the IOC has already suggested Whistler for those events.

Therefore, even if we get the olympics, I still wouldn't want to put a dime towards a new arena.

One angle I think people miss is that Calgary would be getting a bunch of funds from the provincial and Federal governments that would not otherwise be available. Calgary as a city can redirect most of this towards infrastructure projects. For the 2010 winter olympics, the Federal government gave Vancouver more than a billion dollars. The IOC is going to give about 900 million to the host city, which should just about cover the security costs. The provincial BC government paid about 1 billion in 2010.

So Calgary will have about 3 billion dollars coming it's way in funding - do the residents of Calgary really care if the Olympics lose money in this case? Security paid by IOC and billions of funding for infrastructure that might not be otherwise available.

And we don't even need a new arena or potentially any new facilities.

I think the case for Calgary's benefit becomes pretty clear throwing some of these numbers around. I can see why Edmonton (and, indeed, the rest of Canada) would throw a fit, since it will inevitably result in redirected provincial/Federal dollars, but Calgary stands to gain quite a bit IMO.

[WhipperSnapper]

It's unrealistic to expect the same from the Feds as with the 2010 games. We accomplished what we set forth with those games. In any case, a new arena certainly won't be budgeted for as the Saddledome is adequate for the Olympic purposes. That costs will still be on the city Olympics or no Olympics.

I know Calgary won't stand for a new arena that is as bare bones as Tim Hortons Field since the city already has a much better arena than some budgeted PoS. That's all you would get out of the feds. A third to half the costs of a small, cheap ass arena.

[geotag277]

Even if the feds give less than half of 2010, it's hard not to see how that would benefit Calgary.

And again, we don't need any new arena, period. Not for the olympics and not for hockey. We can use that money for something useful, like infrastructure.