New Downtown Calgary Arena

[Corndogger]

Seattle to Quebec City: All the latest NHL expansion and relocation possibilities

The NHL says it's only interested in expanding to Seattle, but here's a look at all the moving parts

With the NHL's unsurprising, yet monumental announcement Thursday that it will accept applications from Seattle to host an expansion team, it's only a matter of time before the Vegas Golden Knights are usurped as the league's newest franchise.

Commissioner Gary Bettman didn't hesitate to lay down the price ($650 million) and the specifics (the NHL is "only" interested in expanding to Seattle) when the league welcomed a 32nd team this week. But that doesn't mean there is a lack of speculative alternatives on the table.

If the NHL is bent on setting up shop specifically in Seattle, it has plenty of reasons to defend that plan -- for one, there's the city's approval of a glamorous renovation for KeyArena, which is expected to be NHL-ready by 2020. But keeping its eyes on Seattle won't prevent the NHL from combating suggestions of other expansion -- or relocation -- possibilities, especially since other cities have already either openly campaigned for hockey or drawn previous consideration from the league.

Here's a look at all the expansion and relocation possibilities around the league:

Full story at: https://www.cbssports.com/nhl/news/seatt...-expansion-and-relocation-possibilities/

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by craner

The latest word-of-mouth, totally unsubstantiated rumour I heard is the Flames are looking at the Tsuu T'ina Nation as a location for their new arena.

I heard this second hand today while at Physio too. The difference was they claimed the band offered the Flames the land and the Flames declined, saying it had to be DT.

[The Urbanist]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

I heard this second hand today while at Physio too. The difference was they claimed the band offered the Flames the land and the Flames declined, saying it had to be DT.

That would be terrible. Ottawa is a good example of why suburban rinks are a bad idea.

[suburbia]

Originally Posted by The Urbanist

That would be terrible. Ottawa is a good example of why suburban rinks are a bad idea.

I agree that it would be bad, but I must say, Ottawa's example is basically a commuter community with a single narrow road to get there and basically no transit (at least when it opened).

I'm still for victoria park at this point, and love the broader community-centric vision for that area.

[Calgarian]

The Flames want what Edmonton got, they want to build a district around the arena where they would have a controlling stake in all development and get paid handsomely for that privilege. There's no way they would get that on Reserve land.

[Socguy]

Opps, looks like the Sens are looking to move as well. KK better jump now if he wants to move the Flames to Seattle or there is going to be a lineup.
http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/nhl/don-cherry-ottawa-senators-1.4453069

Of course the sticking point in Ottawa is that the sens want a new arena built Downtown as well despite the fact that their current arena was only built in 1994. I guess it's becoming tough to fill an arena in the middle of nowhere.

As another side note: the arena in Seattle is being renovated with 600M of private money, including 40M to improve traffic and parking around the site. Weird that KK doesn't use this as a comparison, just keeps talking about Edmonton.
https://www.seattletimes.com/sports/nba/...spend-40-million-on-transportation-fund/

[monocle]

Do you realize that Ken King is a mere millionaire employee of Murray Edwards and the other billionaires? He is told what to do, not making any decisions.


[ QUOTE=Socguy;8021747]Opps, looks like the Sens are looking to move as well. KK better jump now if he wants to move the Flames to Seattle or there is going to be a lineup.
http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/nhl/don-cherry-ottawa-senators-1.4453069

Of course the sticking point in Ottawa is that the sens want a new arena built Downtown as well despite the fact that their current arena was only built in 1994. I guess it's becoming tough to fill an arena in the middle of nowhere.

As another side note: the arena in Seattle is being renovated with 600M of private money, including 40M to improve traffic and parking around the site. Weird that KK doesn't use this as a comparison, just keeps talking about Edmonton.
https://www.seattletimes.com/sports/nba/...spend-40-million-on-transportation-fund/[/QUOTE]

[Calgarian]

Originally Posted by Socguy

Opps, looks like the Sens are looking to move as well. KK better jump now if he wants to move the Flames to Seattle or there is going to be a lineup.
http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/nhl/don-cherry-ottawa-senators-1.4453069

Of course the sticking point in Ottawa is that the sens want a new arena built Downtown as well despite the fact that their current arena was only built in 1994. I guess it's becoming tough to fill an arena in the middle of nowhere.

As another side note: the arena in Seattle is being renovated with 600M of private money, including 40M to improve traffic and parking around the site. Weird that KK doesn't use this as a comparison, just keeps talking about Edmonton.
https://www.seattletimes.com/sports/nba/...spend-40-million-on-transportation-fund/

Ottawa is considering moving because they can't fill seats, not because they are trying to ransom the city into building a new arena. And Seattle will be an expansion franchise, the NHL wants 32 teams and even divisions and conferences. If a team moves, it will be to Quebec City or Houston, and that will be after the NHL has exhausted every option to keep a team where it is.

[Socguy]

So what's next? Sources inside the city say that the Flames will not likely pick up the phone to the city for at least a year now.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/city-flames-arena-sports-analysis-1.4463076

Other good stuff: Seattle arena reno being done with private money is going to be smaller (fewer seats) than the 'dome and and crucially, have fewer lower bowl seats that Ken Kin has previously said are necessary for the Flames to make a go of it.

In short, there is nowhere for the flames to move unless they want to make less money. I suspect that by 2019-2020 we'll see a Flames team quietly contact the city and try to restart negotiations, but this time in a little better faith.

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by Socguy

So what's next? Sources inside the city say that the Flames will not likely pick up the phone to the city for at least a year now.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/city-flames-arena-sports-analysis-1.4463076

Other good stuff: Seattle arena reno being done with private money is going to be smaller (fewer seats) than the 'dome and and crucially, have fewer lower bowl seats that Ken Kin has previously said are necessary for the Flames to make a go of it.

In short, there is nowhere for the flames to move unless they want to make less money. I suspect that by 2019-2020 we'll see a Flames team quietly contact the city and try to restart negotiations, but this time in a little better faith.

I have no faith they’ll do it in better faith. They’ll probably already be plotting with their next election shill by then. The only hope imo is if we get the Olympics bid.

[suburbia]

This is somewhat tangential, but I think still relevant to the discussion I think.

Edmonton is losing the Canadian Finals Rodeo, along with the concert series that goes along with it, precisely because of their new arena (and the arena deal's stipulation that the colliseum closes down). The new Edmonton arena doesn't have facilities in vicinity to pull off this event, because it is no longer the the vicinity of Northlands park.

The above is relevant to the Calgary discussion, because the City's preferred location remains within the broader stampede area, whereas what the Flames had proposed as their plan A would lose access to all of those assets.

[Socguy]

Originally Posted by suburbia

This is somewhat tangential, but I think still relevant to the discussion I think.

Edmonton is losing the Canadian Finals Rodeo, along with the concert series that goes along with it, precisely because of their new arena (and the arena deal's stipulation that the colliseum closes down). The new Edmonton arena doesn't have facilities in vicinity to pull off this event, because it is no longer the the vicinity of Northlands park.

The above is relevant to the Calgary discussion, because the City's preferred location remains within the broader stampede area, whereas what the Flames had proposed as their plan A would lose access to all of those assets.

Edmonton is not losing the CFR, they basically declined to continue with them due to their demands. The CFR tried to push the city around and used the new arena as an excuse. Edmonton has now gone with a professional bull riders event out of Las Vegas.

The CFR lately has been characterized by disfunction. http://edmontonjournal.com/sports/dan-ba...rofessional-rodeo-association-in-turmoil They even went so far as to abuse Saskatoon as a negotiation tactic. http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatoon/...ment-falls-through-oct-17-2016-1.3809457

Calgary has been interested in the CFR for a long while, but unless the CFR is willing to significantly move off their demands, there is no way a CFR event is feasible.

[240glt]

Edmonton is not losing the CFR, they basically declined to continue with them due to their demands. The CFR tried to push the city around and used the new arena as an excuse. Edmonton has now gone with a professional bull riders event out of Las Vegas.

Don't fool yourself. Edmonton absolutely did lose the CFR. The CFR was dead in this town the moment the city signed the one-sided, terrible deal with Daryl Katz. It's 30 million dollars worth of economic activity heading on down the road to Red Deer, who I am sure are beside themselves with joy at the prospect of a long term deal to host the event that brings in so many people to attend the event, stay in hotels, buy trucks and cars, eat at restaurants, buy stuff at big box stores, etc.

Nobody wants to deal with OEG either. It's not just CFR, I have heard an number of other organizations who don't want to deal with them

The PBR won't be back next year either. It lost between $500k and $1 million last year, and had terrible attendance.

It's all a massive debacle, and no one party is to blame, but every party from the city, to the Katz Group, to Northlands to the CFR share in the blame. The city, who should have been controlling the whole process botched it beyond all imagination, and Edmonton lost out.

[suburbia]

Originally Posted by Socguy

Edmonton is not losing the CFR, they basically declined to continue with them due to their demands.

My understanding is that the new arena in Edmonton doesn't really have the ancillary animal facilities within its vicinity, and this was a major hurdle. According to the CFR folks, Edmonton did put in a bid, but this reality was a major consideration for the CFR.

Not saying what you are talking about is not true, but on the other hand, I would think the CFR would choose to go from a 90,000 person event in Edmonton to something less than half that in Red Deer.

At the end of the day, what we do know is that facility / accommodation for animals is lacking in the vicinity of the new Edmonton arena, and that Edmonton has lost the CFR including the concert series that goes with it. I should add that the agreement with Red Deer is for ten years, so cumulatively it is significant economic impact. Unlike a local sports club, things like the CFR actually do pull in dollars from attendees from out of town.

[YYCguys]

In visit to Calgary, IOC says it's committed to cheaper, leaner Olympic bids

Shawn Logan Published on: January 17, 2018

Dubi said the IOC has made strong efforts to scale back its demands on host cities, which includes encouraging the use of existing or legacy facilities, removing seating requirements for venues and allowing partnerships with other jurisdictions with facilities that could reduce the costs for potential hosts.

http://calgaryherald.com/news/local-news...committed-to-cheaper-leaner-olympic-bids

Might be a way for Edmonton to utilize its shiny new arena if Calgary doesn’t get a new one by then!

[Rollerstud98]

Originally Posted by YYCguys

In visit to Calgary, IOC says it's committed to cheaper, leaner Olympic bids

Shawn Logan Published on: January 17, 2018

Dubi said the IOC has made strong efforts to scale back its demands on host cities, which includes encouraging the use of existing or legacy facilities, removing seating requirements for venues and allowing partnerships with other jurisdictions with facilities that could reduce the costs for potential hosts.

http://calgaryherald.com/news/local-news...committed-to-cheaper-leaner-olympic-bids

Might be a way for Edmonton to utilize its shiny new arena if Calgary doesn’t get a new one by then!

Yes, ship what will be the highest profile event at the olympics if held here to another city, seems like a great idea!

[YYCguys]

Oh I wasn’t suggesting that in seriousness. I was stating it tongue in cheek. Just playing off what the IOC rep was insinuating.

[DizzyEdge]

I'm kind of surprised Red Deer hasn't snagged more such events, with ~2.5 million people within a 90 min drive.

[Socguy]

Originally Posted by 240glt

Don't fool yourself. Edmonton absolutely did lose the CFR. The CFR was dead in this town the moment the city signed the one-sided, terrible deal with Daryl Katz. It's 30 million dollars worth of economic activity heading on down the road to Red Deer, who I am sure are beside themselves with joy at the prospect of a long term deal to host the event that brings in so many people to attend the event, stay in hotels, buy trucks and cars, eat at restaurants, buy stuff at big box stores, etc.

Nobody wants to deal with OEG either. It's not just CFR, I have heard an number of other organizations who don't want to deal with them

The PBR won't be back next year either. It lost between $500k and $1 million last year, and had terrible attendance.

It's all a massive debacle, and no one party is to blame, but every party from the city, to the Katz Group, to Northlands to the CFR share in the blame. The city, who should have been controlling the whole process botched it beyond all imagination, and Edmonton lost out.

You are correct that it's a massive debacle but one side shoulders the vast majority of the blame and it's the Canadian Professional Rodeo Association.

The CPRA negotiators were determined to test the open market. The problem was that Edmonton made an extremely competitive offer. Since the negotiators had blinders on, they turned it down and didn't even show it to the board of directors till months after it was rejected. Again, the offer was substantial enough that NOBODY else bid because everyone saw what was already rejected. http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/no-bid-from-edmonton-for-canadian-finals-rodeo-1.3568736 The CPRA then spend a few years running around trying to get the original offer from Edmonton back on to the table, but it was too late. Edmonton had moved on. The CPRA played hardball and lost big time. Now they will be in tough to make a go of it in Red Deer. Since it has a tiny fraction of the base to draw on that Edmonton did.

As for economic activity, Edmonton still has Farmfair, they just swapped out the CFR event for a PBR event.

As for the PBR losing money this year: Context please! This was the final year the CFR was held in Edmonton, it was also the first year the PBR was held in Edmonton and both events were held AT THE SAME TIME. Next year will be the true test to see if PBR will be viable.

Finally, which groups don't want to work with the OEG?

[suburbia]

Originally Posted by DizzyEdge

I'm kind of surprised Red Deer hasn't snagged more such events, with ~2.5 million people within a 90 min drive.

Originally Posted by Socguy

Now they will be in tough to make a go of it in Red Deer. Since it has a tiny fraction of the base to draw on that Edmonton did.

I actually agree on the topic of Red Deer with Dizzy. Red Deer has a larger population base to draw on within a 90 minute drive than does Edmonton.