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  #521  
Old Posted Jan 24, 2018, 4:04 PM
acottawa acottawa is offline
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Originally Posted by phil235 View Post

Not sure about the geographic restrictions. Maybe those have tightened since the times when there were 10 theatres downtown.
The restrictions are on the movies. When there were multiple theatres downtown they would show different movies (Rideau Centre and WEP always had different movies for example).

I think there was probably a window in the 90s when downtown land was relatively cheap and theatres were building like crazy. The 90 George site would have been a pretty great location. For some reason nothing happened in Ottawa and they kept their 80s multiplexes.
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  #522  
Old Posted Jan 24, 2018, 5:53 PM
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Originally Posted by kevinbottawa View Post
I wonder how the building up of Lebreton Flats, the new central library and Zibi will affect Sparks Street as more people will be walking to the library, Lebreton Flats and Zibi from the CBD and Byward Market. I imagine it will be the preferred walking route to those destinations for a lot of people.

A while back was the NCC talking about a staircase from the open field at the end of Sparks Street down to Lebreton Flats?
There are too many dead zones between Sparks Street (and I mean east of Bank), the proposed library, the proposed arena and Zibi.

Sure a few will walk it, but even a block of nothingness really starts discouraging large scale pedestrian traffic. How many tourists really do the walk from Parliament Hill and the War Museum? That is a long walk really.

It really hurt Sparks Street when they started kicking out the retail teeth one by one between the 1920s and the 1960s between Sussex and Elgin. Now it is a walk of nothingness at least for a shopper. What really hurt was getting rid of the street cars that directly connected the Rideau and Sparks (and even Bank) retail areas.

I can recall years ago walking from Rideau to Sparks to Bank while shopping. Who would do that today?
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  #523  
Old Posted Jan 24, 2018, 5:58 PM
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Originally Posted by phil235 View Post
You would definitely have to draw from a wider area, but I could see a theatre in and around the Market being a draw. Hop on the LRT, grab dinner in the Market and see a movie.

Not sure about the geographic restrictions. Maybe those have tightened since the times when there were 10 theatres downtown.
On many occasions we used to go to the movies at the World Exchange and then to dinner downtown. None of us lived downtown or anywhere close. Now, that is not possible so there is less reason to go downtown. The attraction of the World Exchange was the free parking for those going to the movies. Transit is not an option when we were all coming from different directions and one beyond transit reach entirely and none anywhere near LRT.
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  #524  
Old Posted Jan 24, 2018, 6:12 PM
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Originally Posted by acottawa View Post
The restrictions are on the movies. When there were multiple theatres downtown they would show different movies (Rideau Centre and WEP always had different movies for example).

I think there was probably a window in the 90s when downtown land was relatively cheap and theatres were building like crazy. The 90 George site would have been a pretty great location. For some reason nothing happened in Ottawa and they kept their 80s multiplexes.
Yeah, land values probably mean that ship has sailed, unless a theatre was incorporated into a larger mixed use project.
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  #525  
Old Posted Jan 24, 2018, 6:20 PM
kevinbottawa kevinbottawa is offline
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
I can recall years ago walking from Rideau to Sparks to Bank while shopping. Who would do that today?
I do that walk. When it's warmer outside I usually walk with my family from the market/Rideau Centre, down Sparks to the McDonald's on Bank just to avoid the McDonald's on Rideau. But I almost never stop into any of the businesses on Sparks because they suck. The odd time I'll stop into Winners.
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  #526  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2018, 12:33 AM
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I have just returned from trip to Raleigh NC and Greenville SC. Both cities are working hard on revitalizing their downtowns with considerable success.

Raliegh and the NC state government have invested heavily in public buildings including world class museums congregated between the old and new state Capitol buildings. A pedestrian mall that had failed like Sparks Street was reopened to traffic, which revitalized both the street and the surrounding area. What was dead is now bustling, and private investment including new towers were evident. Raleigh is sprawl central, so Ottawa has a distinct advantage but there efforts are resulting in very positive changes.



http://www.metrojacksonville.com/pho...ine_com_04.jpg

Fayettville Street, Raleigh, once a failed pedestrian mall, is still sometimes closed to vehicle traffic for major events.

Greenboro was in a worse position than Raleigh when its industrial economy was dessimated by industry moving off-shore. However, the municipal government showed considerable courage by investing in its downtown. What is unheard of was the demolition of a highway bridge downtown and replacing it with a suspension pedestrian bridge that curves across the river giving a public view of a centrally located waterfall. The river formerly overgrown and strewn with garbage was converted into public gardens, and multi-use pathways. Public art was installed. The riverside is still being improved and the pathways now extend a considerable distance. As is the case in most cities, the riverfront is a flood plain so it is reserved as parkland. The main street has been totally revitilized for several blocks with a wide variety of restaurants, other retail stores and hotels including a classy heritage hotel, now the Westin. The street was narrowed by introducing angled parking which has slowed down vehicle traffic to a speed that is welcoming to pedestrians. Much of the street was shaded by mature trees. Traffic needing faster access across the downtown area was moved to a parallel street and away from the cities best amenities. Construction was apparent everywhere and included many new low rise condominiums near the river. The results have been amazing and put our efforts on Sparks Street and Rideau Street to shame. What is also surprising is this is being accomplished with little or no public transit.



http://www.travelscbeaches.com/wp-co...e-1000x680.jpg

This bridge is less than a block away from the main street.

https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/...AMdP4HHsw.jpeg Click on link to see image.

Despite the greenery, Main Street in Greenboro is very urban.

What this is demonstrating is that other cities are having successes in revitilizing their downtowns. Perhaps, we need to examine the successes in other cities which may give us alternative ideas.

In both cases, public amenities were an important part of making downtown an attractive destination for both residents and visitors. Public art and public gardens need to be part of this. Improvement of waterways is also important but this can be about providing vistas and greenspace as much as urbanizing the corridor. If done well, both will improve any city.

Last edited by lrt's friend; Apr 2, 2018 at 1:14 AM.
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  #527  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2018, 3:34 AM
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lrt's Friend is on to something. The last photo in your post is the perfect rendering for the relocation of the Airport parkway pedestrian bridge over to the Hogs Back park. Genius!
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  #528  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2018, 4:13 AM
zzptichka zzptichka is offline
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post

Raliegh and the NC state government have invested heavily in public buildings including world class museums congregated between the old and new state Capitol buildings. A pedestrian mall that had failed like Sparks Street was reopened to traffic, which revitalized both the street and the surrounding area. What was dead is now bustling, and private investment including new towers were evident. Raleigh is sprawl central, so Ottawa has a distinct advantage but there efforts are resulting in very positive changes.
Seems like nothing has changed since at least 2007 except cars became a bit nicer.
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  #529  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2018, 11:50 AM
eltodesukane eltodesukane is offline
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
...
Greenboro was in a worse position than Raleigh when its industrial economy was dessimated by industry moving off-shore. However, the municipal government showed considerable courage by investing in its downtown.
What is unheard of was the demolition of a highway bridge downtown and replacing it with a suspension pedestrian bridge that curves across the river giving a public view of a centrally located waterfall.
The river formerly overgrown and strewn with garbage was converted into public gardens, and multi-use pathways. Public art was installed.
The riverside is still being improved and the pathways now extend a considerable distance. As is the case in most cities, the riverfront is a flood plain so it is reserved as parkland.
...
Liberty Bridge, Greenville, SC
https://www.google.ca/maps/place/Fal...2.399311?dcr=0
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  #530  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2018, 2:13 PM
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Seems like nothing has changed since at least 2007 except cars became a bit nicer.
I am not sure when Fayetteville Street was reopened to traffic. However, the vista between the old state capitol at one end and a performing arts centre at the other end was attractive.

Ottawa has a major advantage over Raleigh and Greenville with our much superior public transit and soon to be open subway and our higher level urbanity in general, but both Sparks Street and Rideau Street have major issues.

After seeing what these other cities have to offer, one thing that both Rideau and Sparks seem to lack are destinations away from the central node, something that will promote pedestrian traffic away from Parliament Hill, Confederation Square, Rideau Centre, and the Byward Market. In other words, get people wanting to walk further away that central node. The problem with the War Museum is that it is a bit too far for a comfortable walk. Some of the other attractions not right in the middle of downtown are down side streets and don't attract pedestrians down our key retail streets.

As I said, Raleigh has destinations at both ends of Fayetteville Street, while Greenville has large high end hotels at both ends of central Main Street plus the major improvements along the river. My hosts also explained that one side of the pedestrian bridge leads to rather bland offices. I did walk across. A proposal will replace some of those offices with another major hotel, which will enliven that side of the bridge. The Hyatt Regency Hotel on Main Street included a public square, public art and interesting modern architecture. It was more than a square tower crammed into a city block that can be very typical and often very uninteresting.
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  #531  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2018, 2:31 PM
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Originally Posted by BlueJay View Post
lrt's Friend is on to something. The last photo in your post is the perfect rendering for the relocation of the Airport parkway pedestrian bridge over to the Hogs Back park. Genius!
When I walked across the bridge, I immediately thought of our plans for a pedestrian bridge at 5th avenue. The bridge in Greenville has a graceful curve that is so attractive and the suspension poles and cables are on the side facing away from the water falls so there is little obstruction of the view of the falls. Very well done.

I was disappointed of how we moved away from the original curved bridge plan at 5th avenue and have gone to a more utilitarian straight bridge that will require sizeable berms on both sides. I am sorry but cheaping out on design in key locations is not a good idea.
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  #532  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2018, 6:40 PM
Nepean Nepean is offline
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post

*snip*

After seeing what these other cities have to offer, one thing that both Rideau and Sparks seem to lack are destinations away from the central node, something that will promote pedestrian traffic away from Parliament Hill, Confederation Square, Rideau Centre, and the Byward Market. In other words, get people wanting to walk further away that central node. The problem with the War Museum is that it is a bit too far for a comfortable walk. Some of the other attractions not right in the middle of downtown are down side streets and don't attract pedestrians down our key retail streets.

*snip*
For me this is the nub of the problem. Sparks Street is mediocre because it is filled with government-owned buildings that are underused, and in some cases empty. The result is that a lot of real estate that could be used to liven up the street is being wasted by the feds. Removing the pedestrian mall and opening it up to cars will not change this.

If you want to bring Sparks to life forget about bringing back cars, and focus instead on attractions that will bring foot traffic. You just have to look at Ribfest or the Busker Festival to see the potential. Just imagine what Sparks would look like if theatres, restaurants, cafes and small art galleries were the main tenants. The area could become our own theatre district. (I sometimes imagine what Sparks would look like if the Gladstone, Great Canadian Theatre Company, Ottawa Little Theatre Company and other artistic groups moved to the street).

The main roadblock, however, is the federal government. By owning so many key buildings in the area, and by completely wasting so much of this real estate, they are (in my view) the biggest reason for the poor state of Sparks.
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  #533  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2018, 7:54 PM
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^ Completely agree Nepean. For anyone reading this read or following the issue for the past several years, there have been some really good ideas that can and should be implemented. But at the end of the day Sparks Street remains a street dominated by bland underutilized government offices and you can only do so much to liven it up.

Maybe the city should inquire to the feds on what the future status holds for some of the buildings. If the feds don't really have a plan, then maybe see what it would take to purchase some space and get private developers or retailers involved?
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  #534  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2018, 8:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Nepean View Post
For me this is the nub of the problem. Sparks Street is mediocre because it is filled with government-owned buildings that are underused, and in some cases empty. The result is that a lot of real estate that could be used to liven up the street is being wasted by the feds. Removing the pedestrian mall and opening it up to cars will not change this.

If you want to bring Sparks to life forget about bringing back cars, and focus instead on attractions that will bring foot traffic. You just have to look at Ribfest or the Busker Festival to see the potential. Just imagine what Sparks would look like if theatres, restaurants, cafes and small art galleries were the main tenants. The area could become our own theatre district. (I sometimes imagine what Sparks would look like if the Gladstone, Great Canadian Theatre Company, Ottawa Little Theatre Company and other artistic groups moved to the street).

The main roadblock, however, is the federal government. By owning so many key buildings in the area, and by completely wasting so much of this real estate, they are (in my view) the biggest reason for the poor state of Sparks.


One further problem is that Sparks Street ends at a cliff. We have big plans for below the cliff but pedestrians have to be rerouted to another street to get there. It is too bad that we got rid of the Sparks Street connection 60 years ago that ran down the hill to below the cliff. We need pedestrians to flow along Sparks Street and not on Wellington or Albert, otherwise Sparks Street does not gain much. We definitely need some public amenities along Sparks, west of Bank instead of dead walls. All poor design from the 1970s, some thanks to the feds but also from the private sector (raise your hand 240 Sparks Street). Look also at Lyon Street, originally designed as a market square but now dominated by cars and soon to be buses. Would that not be a good place for an interestingly designed public square that would allow for small performances, patios and surrounded by interesting restaurants? Another lost opportunity.
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  #535  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2018, 9:18 PM
acottawa acottawa is offline
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Originally Posted by Nepean View Post
For me this is the nub of the problem. Sparks Street is mediocre because it is filled with government-owned buildings that are underused, and in some cases empty. The result is that a lot of real estate that could be used to liven up the street is being wasted by the feds. Removing the pedestrian mall and opening it up to cars will not change this.

If you want to bring Sparks to life forget about bringing back cars, and focus instead on attractions that will bring foot traffic. You just have to look at Ribfest or the Busker Festival to see the potential. Just imagine what Sparks would look like if theatres, restaurants, cafes and small art galleries were the main tenants. The area could become our own theatre district. (I sometimes imagine what Sparks would look like if the Gladstone, Great Canadian Theatre Company, Ottawa Little Theatre Company and other artistic groups moved to the street).

The main roadblock, however, is the federal government. By owning so many key buildings in the area, and by completely wasting so much of this real estate, they are (in my view) the biggest reason for the poor state of Sparks.
Where should the federal government go? This is a capital city; those are key institutions of the government.
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  #536  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2018, 11:10 PM
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Where should the federal government go? This is a capital city; those are key institutions of the government.
All they have to go is one floor up and leave the street level to active retail
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  #537  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2018, 12:02 AM
acottawa acottawa is offline
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All they have to go is one floor up and leave the street level to active retail
I agree those spaces should be rented out, although I don't think it would change the dynamic of the street.
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  #538  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2018, 12:26 AM
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All they have to go is one floor up and leave the street level to active retail
Adding more ground-level retail that closes at 5 doesn't solve much of the situation. Sparks still needs more residents in the area and operations beyond simple retail. Nepean's suggestion revolving around the Theatre companies would be suitable progress and would surely liven up the mall more. Sparks needs to have more value as a destination and thruway for pedestrians than as a retail spot.
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  #539  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2018, 2:20 AM
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By active retail, I mean the very restaurants, cafes and small art galleries mentioned above. The old bank buildings would make for nice theatres and performance venues, actually.
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  #540  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2018, 12:24 PM
passwordisnt123 passwordisnt123 is offline
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Originally Posted by JHikka View Post
Adding more ground-level retail that closes at 5 doesn't solve much of the situation. Sparks still needs more residents in the area and operations beyond simple retail. Nepean's suggestion revolving around the Theatre companies would be suitable progress and would surely liven up the mall more. Sparks needs to have more value as a destination and thruway for pedestrians than as a retail spot.
Don't get me wrong, I agree that Nepean's suggestion about the Theatre companies is a good one. But that said, I think retail also plays a role and I think it's pretty inarguable that the Federal Government's holdings along the north side of Sparks Street really kills progress in a serious way.

It's in the federal government's power to rent out those streetfront/ground floor holdings to private sector interests.

That gets us part of the way there.

Once retail is in there, there are other things that can be done to help ensure the retail there doesn't close at 5 pm. For example, the city could make the property taxes high enough that the retail along Sparks street isn't profitable unless they stay open longer. Or maybe they could zone for only certain kinds of retail. The BIA could possibly get involved somehow to help expand the business hours past 5 with either sticks or carrots.

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