Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by officedweller

- Jericho lands should get a station (funded by the development)
- South campus/ Westbrook Village should have a station (terminus)
- UBC should pay for main campus station and Westbrook Village station.

Agreed, agreed and agreed.

Still, SkyTrain coverage for the whole campus seems a tad overambitious at this point. One for Block F, one for the bus loop, maybe one for West Mall if UBC's feeling generous; Wesbrook can be served by the 91 B-Line until the 41st SkyTrain starts construction.

[casper]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Agreed, agreed and agreed.

Still, SkyTrain coverage for the whole campus seems a tad overambitious at this point. One for Block F, one for the bus loop, maybe one for West Mall if UBC's feeling generous; Wesbrook can be served by the 91 B-Line until the 41st SkyTrain starts construction.

Wondering if the campus could be served with a one way loop.

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

I think the whole argument that they will be hacked is a little silly because with that logic why do we have a fully automatic train system...

the train system itself is hard wired, a closed system. it doesn't connect to the internet so it cannot be hacked. anything built today is now connected to the internet. our train system predates the need to connect everything to the internet, that's why many many kms of fibre-optics were run back in the early 80s.

something being hacked is a valid argument in today's world. it is dangerous to connect everything to the internet and i wonder when we, as people, will realize this.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

This would be great for Skytrain especially Canada Line

In a world where money is limited and we have a huge, huge backlog of desperately needed transit improvements, it would be stupid to spend our money on this.

There are so many wild ideas being bandied about on these forums which seem to completely ignore fiscal reality.

[Reecemartin]

[Deleted]

[ilikeredheads]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

The Canada Line is totally packed, wheres the fiscal reponsibility in rebuilding all the stations for improved flow when you could install doors at a fraction of the cost while also improving safety (you aren't building any new lines for the price of platform edge doors).

The main problem with the Canada Line stations is there's only 1 flight of stairs and 1 up escalators in most stations, thus creating a big choke point where everyone gets funneled to the same area whether they are entering or exiting. Having platform screen doors will not fix that.

Secondly, building them is a complete waste of money, no matter how cheap you think they may be (it won't be cheap but that's besides the point) until all stations are extended to 50m and the trains are fitted with middle C car. In case you don't know already, Translink is NOT rolling in money. When it can't even afford to expand services, something like platform screen doors are pushed way down in the priorities list.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

The Canada Line is totally packed, wheres the fiscal reponsibility in rebuilding all the stations for improved flow when you could install doors at a fraction of the cost while also improving safety (you aren't building any new lines for the price of platform edge doors).

Installing platform doors doesn't solve the problem that the station rebuilds are solving - the sheer volume of people trying to move in and out of the station and in and out of the trains. If you're thinking, for example, that platform doors will allow you to jam even more people onto the platform "safely", then you're completely missing the point of the station rebuilds. A station crammed to the gills with people isn't going to be of much use if a train arriving at the station can't efficiently detrain people train into the thronging masses.

By far the cheapest way to relieve the congestion issues on the Canada Line is to simply buy more trainsets. And when that's been done and we're 20 or 30 years into the future then there's no cheap way to expand capacity, the fault isn't going to be the lack of platform doors - it's going to be the lack of foresight in building such short stations.

[MIPS]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Slightly less standing room at the very edge of the platform (where virtually nobody stands in the first place) seems a small price to pay for ending suicides medical emergencies and all the crowding/delays that come with them.

So instead of jumping in front of the train he just jumps off the end of the platform to the street below. It just moves the problem somewhere else.
It is not the responsibility of the transit authority to deal with mental health problems. It's their job to be critical of those who are in a position to direct these people to seek help so they aren't constantly out with the garbage bag and spatula trying to reduce downtime.
I get the idea of it but in a system where we are constantly working to make the safety systems as unintrusive as possible I just don't see it as necessary.

Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture

the train system itself is hard wired, a closed system. it doesn't connect to the internet so it cannot be hacked. anything built today is now connected to the internet. our train system predates the need to connect everything to the internet, that's why many many kms of fibre-optics were run back in the early 80s.

There has been speculation that after the MK I's are phased out that the upgrade to the newer Innovia systems will move signalling and control to the wireless (802.11 subset?) standards they are currently deploying elsewhere in the world right now. I believe London's new system uses it and the MK III's have the option of using that instead of leaky coax but as of right now we did not order any new trains with the option installed.

[Reecemartin]

[Deleted]

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

They have already ordered more trainsets iirc, and with metal mazes similar to China they actually can use doors to safely pack more people onto platforms safely by controlling flows.

The problem isn't controlling flows, the problem is that the flows are getting too big for the station to handle. Screen doors and queue railings won't change that.

Also note that if they do it for the Canada Line, they'll have to do it for every other station.

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

why is the platform door argument coming back? wasn't this put to death a long time ago when the point was made that there is no money for it? and that it is a waste of resources? and that people can still die with platform doors? Crushed Between Train and Screen Door

but the most important thing to remember is, TRANSLINK IS BROKE. seriously people, they... are... broke... BROKE.

and do you really think platform doors would be cheap? the stations were never ever designed for that, so i am sure it isn't that easy to add them in. also, the edge is a cantilever at most, if not all of the stations. could the platform even handle the weight without modifications? then how would these things operate? now this thing needs to connect to the train system so it would need to be compatible. now there's all the extra servers and computer equipment need to run the timings, sensors, etc. what about the ongoing maintenance cost? another thing to break down. TransLink is broke. what about the bad PR that TransLink will get when the newspapers headline reads "SKYTRAIN PLATFORM DOORS DON'T OPEN WHEN TRAINS ARRIVE!!!"

this is a major headache that TransLink can and should avoid. why would they want to waste all this money for no reason? the money is better used for more trains and station expansions to handle more people.

anyone here really think TransLink wants to have a 2nd showing of the COMPASS Affair with bad publicity for years? another good example of a unnecessary project that as over budget, overtime, and created problem after problem.

Originally Posted by MIPS

There has been speculation that after the MK I's are phased out that the upgrade to the newer Innovia systems will move signalling and control to the wireless (802.11 subset?) standards they are currently deploying elsewhere in the world right now. I believe London's new system uses it and the MK III's have the option of using that instead of leaky coax but as of right now we did not order any new trains with the option installed.

interesting, although if the MKIII's can maybe do it, and we haven't ordered that option, i don't see it happening anytime soon. because it sounds like some trains will be able to and some wont. such as the MKII/MKIII trains we currently have.

is there really a need to change to wireless though? is the maintenance of the current system a lot or what? its not like the system needs to be built and they are saving all of this money by not installing tonnes of cable.

[dpogue]

Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture

is there really a need to change to wireless though? is the maintenance of the current system a lot or what? its not like the system needs to be built and they are saving all of this money by not installing tonnes of cable.

Several delays in the past have been the result of debris getting caught under trains and damaging those leaky coax cables. If that cable gets cut, the computer loses the positions of all trains in an area ranging between 1 to 5 kilometres along the track.

[Reecemartin]

[Deleted]

[Alex Mackinnon]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

I'd question whether using 4G makes more sense considering the alignment is mostly outdoors :/

I'd suggest using a better armouring system. Leaky feeders coax systems survive in underground mines all the time. Believe me, miners are pro at accidentally breaking things; so if they can survive underground in a mine it shouldn't be hard to build them to survive the occasional debris strike.

I'd question also question how good the service can be on a cellular network. Ping over cellular networks was one of the big problems they had rolling out the Compass Card.

[flipper316]

Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture

why is the platform door argument coming back? wasn't this put to death a long time ago when the point was made that there is no money for it? and that it is a waste of resources? and that people can still die with platform doors? Crushed Between Train and Screen Door

but the most important thing to remember is, TRANSLINK IS BROKE. seriously people, they... are... broke... BROKE.

and do you really think platform doors would be cheap? the stations were never ever designed for that, so i am sure it isn't that easy to add them in. also, the edge is a cantilever at most, if not all of the stations. could the platform even handle the weight without modifications? then how would these things operate? now this thing needs to connect to the train system so it would need to be compatible. now there's all the extra servers and computer equipment need to run the timings, sensors, etc. what about the ongoing maintenance cost? another thing to break down. TransLink is broke. what about the bad PR that TransLink will get when the newspapers headline reads "SKYTRAIN PLATFORM DOORS DON'T OPEN WHEN TRAINS ARRIVE!!!"

this is a major headache that TransLink can and should avoid. why would they want to waste all this money for no reason? the money is better used for more trains and station expansions to handle more people.

anyone here really think TransLink wants to have a 2nd showing of the COMPASS Affair with bad publicity for years? another good example of a unnecessary project that as over budget, overtime, and created problem after problem.



interesting, although if the MKIII's can maybe do it, and we haven't ordered that option, i don't see it happening anytime soon. because it sounds like some trains will be able to and some wont. such as the MKII/MKIII trains we currently have.

is there really a need to change to wireless though? is the maintenance of the current system a lot or what? its not like the system needs to be built and they are saving all of this money by not installing tonnes of cable.

amen

[MIPS]

Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture

is there really a need to change to wireless though? is the maintenance of the current system a lot or what? its not like the system needs to be built and they are saving all of this money by not installing tonnes of cable.

That may be a future decision by Bombardier we have no control over besides right now saying "we are your biggest customer" in that regard.
I think it just boils down to Randall's suggestion:



Personally I have no problem with leaky coax as we have not had a cable break in....[del]5 years[/del]? No need to fix what ain't broken.

Edited: nope. There have been more recent incidents.

[Reecemartin]

[Deleted]

[casper]

Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture

why is the platform door argument coming back? wasn't this put to death a long time ago when the point was made that there is no money for it? and that it is a waste of resources? and that people can still die with platform doors? Crushed Between Train and Screen Door

but the most important thing to remember is, TRANSLINK IS BROKE. seriously people, they... are... broke... BROKE.

and do you really think platform doors would be cheap? the stations were never ever designed for that, so i am sure it isn't that easy to add them in. also, the edge is a cantilever at most, if not all of the stations. could the platform even handle the weight without modifications? then how would these things operate? now this thing needs to connect to the train system so it would need to be compatible. now there's all the extra servers and computer equipment need to run the timings, sensors, etc. what about the ongoing maintenance cost? another thing to break down. TransLink is broke. what about the bad PR that TransLink will get when the newspapers headline reads "SKYTRAIN PLATFORM DOORS DON'T OPEN WHEN TRAINS ARRIVE!!!"

this is a major headache that TransLink can and should avoid. why would they want to waste all this money for no reason? the money is better used for more trains and station expansions to handle more people.

anyone here really think TransLink wants to have a 2nd showing of the COMPASS Affair with bad publicity for years? another good example of a unnecessary project that as over budget, overtime, and created problem after problem.



interesting, although if the MKIII's can maybe do it, and we haven't ordered that option, i don't see it happening anytime soon. because it sounds like some trains will be able to and some wont. such as the MKII/MKIII trains we currently have.

is there really a need to change to wireless though? is the maintenance of the current system a lot or what? its not like the system needs to be built and they are saving all of this money by not installing tonnes of cable.

I would disagree with the statement they are "BROKE". It is a massive organisation making significant capital expenditures. They have the money.

The issue comes down to is this the best use of the budget they do have, especially when they need to come up with 20% of the cost of the Broadway extension. I don't think so.

Our stations are not over crowded to the point where these would be remotely useful. There are also other options, the upgrade at Broadway station is to deal over crowding and adding a second platform just makes more sense.

[Reecemartin]

[Deleted]

[casper]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

Except* for the Canada Line in coming years.

Instead of spending money on these doors, you could buy more cars and increase service frequency.