Rural Commuter Rail

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by Charles5

You may wish to check out para 2.2 (b) of the City's response to CTA which clearly indicates that the 3 year plan now and in the past has stated the intention to retain the POW bridge.
https://www.letsgomoose.ca/wp-content/up...Show-Cause-Response-Case-No-17-01....pdf

I think I misinterpreted MOOSE's original document (paragraph 5) on the matter. Sorry about that.

This still leaves "b) The city dismantled part of the railway without following the proper procedures outlined in the law." up for debate.
I should also add the MOOSE's case could include "obstructing a federal railway" to their case. Either in the sense that they've literally blocked off the previous path for the rail, or they have not included adequate clearance under the Albert Street bridge.

[Kitchissippi]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

As I mentioned in a previous post, MOOSE doesn't "need" the PoW bridge to become an interprovincial railway. The Fitzroy to Pontiac bridge would accomplish that without any kind of trouble.

Montreal can't even support a train to Rigaud, they had to cut the service a while back. Do you really think a train to Bristol is feasible? The Outaouais already has a challenge attracting new residents over Ottawa, good luck luring them to the Pontiac. At any rate, much of that track has already been torn up on the Ontario side so it will be a lot of trouble reinstating it just for a few commuters.

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

MOOSE is proposing contiguous transit lines. Sure, MOOSE could just bring passengers from the Ontario side to Greenboro, have them transfer to the O-Train, then transfer back to a MOOSE train at Bayview to get into Gatineau (where their workplace might be) but at that point, you'd have to realize that anyone using this transit service would wonder "Why do I need to transfer twice along a single continuous piece of rail??"

You're assuming that their final destination will be on the rail line. Chances are they'll have to transfer on to a bus anyway. A new bus route from Greenboro to Gatineau could easily be formulated if the demand is there. And why exactly are these people who choose to live in the exurbs so special that their commute has to be facilitated to the point that it affects urban transit operations? Just let them drive the the nearest park-and-ride, and focus transit initiatives and investment within the urban/suburban area.

The problem with Moose is they haven't designed their plan to be scaleable. Why not lease the old Bombardier Talents from the city and run a Greenboro-Arnprior route (probably the only line that's possible now) and see how that goes? If it works, push for more; if it doesn't, smaller loss.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

I think I misinterpreted MOOSE's original document (paragraph 5) on the matter. Sorry about that.

This still leaves "b) The city dismantled part of the railway without following the proper procedures outlined in the law." up for debate.
I should also add the MOOSE's case could include "obstructing a federal railway" to their case. Either in the sense that they've literally blocked off the previous path for the rail, or they have not included adequate clearance under the Albert Street bridge.

But how does this help Moose?

The procedure to discontinue a railway is

provide notice in the company’s three-year plan for at least 12 months of its intention to discontinue operating the line;
publicly advertise the railway line’s availability or any operating interest that the railway company has in the line;
negotiate with interested parties;
offer to transfer all of its interest in the railway line to the applicable federal provincial and municipal governments and urban transit authorities; and
notify the Agency if the line will be discontinued.

Nothing Moose could do would stop the city from following this procedure.

If the CTA fines the city for not following the procedure then what does Moose gain?

[Charles5]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

I think I misinterpreted MOOSE's original document (paragraph 5) on the matter. Sorry about that.

This still leaves "b) The city dismantled part of the railway without following the proper procedures outlined in the law." up for debate.
I should also add the MOOSE's case could include "obstructing a federal railway" to their case. Either in the sense that they've literally blocked off the previous path for the rail, or they have not included adequate clearance under the Albert Street bridge.

Regarding "dismantled part of the railway". There is a difference between "dismantling" some track and "discontinuing" or "abandoning" the railway line. It's up to CTA to make the determination. If every railway had to seek CTA permission every time they dismantled some track then they could never do maintenance, alterations, or improvements to their networks.

The City's position is pretty clear. Their position is that they have not permanently blocked off the rail, they are simply in the process of realigning the track into Bayview with the ability to extend over the POW Bridge (para 2.3).

Also, as per para 3.3: "An inactive or dormant line is not a discontinued or permanently abandoned line.

As for the clearance, we've discussed that before and I believe the City's position will be that they are building to the standards for Light Rail which is what their Certificate of Fitness indicates the use of this corridor is for. We shall have to wait and see.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

Montreal can't even support a train to Rigaud, they had to cut the service a while back. Do you really think a train to Bristol is feasible? The Outaouais already has a challenge attracting new residents over Ottawa, good luck luring them to the Pontiac. At any rate, much of that track has already been torn up on the Ontario side so it will be a lot of trouble reinstating it just for a few commuters.

That's up to MOOSE to figure out. In any case, my point still stands that they could just use that bridge to gain inter-provincial status.

You're assuming that their final destination will be on the rail line. Chances are they'll have to transfer on to a bus anyway. A new bus route from Greenboro to Gatineau could easily be formulated if the demand is there. And why exactly are these people who choose to live in the exurbs so special that their commute has to be facilitated to the point that it affects urban transit operations? Just let them drive the the nearest park-and-ride, and focus transit initiatives and investment within the urban/suburban area.

There isn't a direct corridor for a bus directly between Greenboro and Gatineau. That's what there isn't one.
Any non-continous rail service along the corridor would mean adding transfers. Based on what I've read on the internet, most people in Ottawa aren't very fond of transfers for numerous reasons.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by acottawa

But how does this help Moose?

The procedure to discontinue a railway is

provide notice in the company’s three-year plan for at least 12 months of its intention to discontinue operating the line;
publicly advertise the railway line’s availability or any operating interest that the railway company has in the line;
negotiate with interested parties;
offer to transfer all of its interest in the railway line to the applicable federal provincial and municipal governments and urban transit authorities; and
notify the Agency if the line will be discontinued.

Nothing Moose could do would stop the city from following this procedure.

If the CTA fines the city for not following the procedure then what does Moose gain?

MOOSE would negotiate with the city to take over the PoW bridge. And no, the city can't just say "no we don't want to give it to you", at least not without causing a barrage of new complaints to the CTA from MOOSE. (Section 144 (3) of the Canadian Transport Act, I think)

[Charles5]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

MOOSE would negotiate with the city to take over the PoW bridge. And no, the city can't just say "no we don't want to give it to you", at least not without causing a barrage of new complaints to the CTA from MOOSE. (Section 144 (3) of the Canadian Transport Act, I think)

Sect 144(3) is only applicable after the owner has indicated they wish to discontinue the line, something which the City has not yet done. As long as the line has not been abandoned or in the process of being abandoned, no one can "take over" the assets.

Now, MOOSE can try and negotiate with the City to use the line and can even claim their right to use it. However, until such time as they actually become a railway company they don't have any grounds to argue for any potential usage.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by Charles5

As for the clearance, we've discussed that before and I believe the City's position will be that they are building to the standards for Light Rail which is what their Certificate of Fitness indicates the use of this corridor is for. We shall have to wait and see.

The first part of your post makes sense and now Iunderstand that position.


In terms of clearance, I don't think the federal government has a separate set of definitions for "light rail" as far as clearance goes. (Most light rail projects aren't federally regulated after all). Since Capital Railway is federally regulated, I'd expect that that would mean that they would need to follow the regulations for clearances under federal law.
I don't think those clearances are strictly necessary, but i don't know how to procedure of getting an exemption from the standard clearances works.

Sect 144(3) is only applicable after the owner has indicated they wish to discontinue the line, something which the City has not yet done. As long as the line has not been abandoned, no one can "take over" the assets.

Originally Posted by acottawa

But how does this help Moose?

The procedure to discontinue a railway is

provide notice in the company’s three-year plan for at least 12 months of its intention to discontinue operating the line;
publicly advertise the railway line’s availability or any operating interest that the railway company has in the line;
negotiate with interested parties;
offer to transfer all of its interest in the railway line to the applicable federal provincial and municipal governments and urban transit authorities; and
notify the Agency if the line will be discontinued.

Nothing Moose could do would stop the city from following this procedure.

I realize that the city isn't discontinuing the PoW bridge, but @acottawa asked how MOOSE would gain from the city discontinuing the bridge.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

MOOSE would negotiate with the city to take over the PoW bridge. And no, the city can't just say "no we don't want to give it to you", at least not without causing a barrage of new complaints to the CTA from MOOSE. (Section 144 (3) of the Canadian Transport Act, I think)

1. Moose has no money. In 6 years Mr. Potvin's affidavit says they raised $500k. Moose can't negotiate with anyone to take over anything.
2. Even if they had money, Ottawa did not remove the track on the POW bridge. The section where they removed track was only a few metres long. Would they operate a 20 m railway?
3. Moose has not made any attempt to buy the sections of the Beechburg sub, which would have been available when CN announced their discontinuance.

[Charles5]

Originally Posted by acottawa

1. Moose has no money. In 6 years Mr. Potvin's affidavit says they raised $500k.

Actually what I think he has said in a couple of different forums is that they've done about $500k worth of work since they started. They're considering that work as 'an investment' or 'debt' so that they could recover it from any revenue that a railway might ever generate in the future.

Considering that there are 11 companies in the consortium (from my count on their website) and they've been working on this for about 6 years, and I'm guessing they would equate their work to a fairly high salary, $500K isn't actually that much work. A lot of it has probably been spent on the litigation aspects lately as well, rather than on actually developing and refining their planning and estimates.

As an example: " Phase 1(a): (Spring/Winter 2015) $350K in-kind work exchanged for promissory notes" (link)

[acottawa]

^

I stand corrected. So they have no money to enter into any negotiations with any railway that may want to discontinue track. It is hard to see all of this litigation being anything but vexatious.

[lrt's friend]

How deep is the Ottawa River downtown? Is there any practical way to build a railway tunnel under it?

It is too bad that ripped up the track to Kemptville, Carleton Place and Pembroke. The latter has some potential for intercity travel with a population of around 50,000 in the Pembroke-Petawawa area as well as the large military base. This would have made a regional rail plan more viable.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by acottawa

1. Moose has no money. In 6 years Mr. Potvin's affidavit says they raised $500k. Moose can't negotiate with anyone to take over anything.

Given their current financial status, they probably wouldn't have made it far in negotiations with the city.

2. Even if they had money, Ottawa did not remove the track on the POW bridge. The section where they removed track was only a few metres long. Would they operate a 20 m railway?

At the moment the bridge is no connected to any rails except for on the Quebec side. The city has since clarified that they intend to reconnect the bridge after construction of Bayview station, but otherwise the bridge would be essentially "abandoned" in terms of any kind of service coming from the Ontario side.

3. Moose has not made any attempt to buy the sections of the Beechburg sub, which would have been available when CN announced their discontinuance.

MOOSE (or rather, mOOse) was barely set up when CN did that, so considering your first point, I don't see how they would have. Also, with the previous facts listed in a previous post about the beachburg sub, CN likely would have asked a high price for it given the value of the rails. CN still owns the corridor though, so relaying track isn't a big deal.

I stand corrected. So they have no money to enter into any negotiations with any railway that may want to discontinue track. It is hard to see all of this litigation being anything but vexatious.

Considering that the original legal talk by MOOSE was put out almost a full year before the city presented its defense, it's hard to see why it is.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

It is too bad that ripped up the track to Kemptville, Carleton Place and Pembroke. The latter has some potential for intercity travel with a population of around 50,000 in the Pembroke-Petawawa area as well as the large military base. This would have made a regional rail plan more viable.

In theory, the Bristol line in MOOSE's plan could be extended all the way to Pembroke. It doesn't seem like that will happen unless the rest of MOOSE's plan gets up and running first though.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

Given their current financial status, they probably wouldn't have made it far in negotiations with the city.

So you agree there is nothing to be gained from any of these complaints?

At worst the city screwed up the paperwork.

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

At the moment the bridge is no connected to any rails except for on the Quebec side. The city has since clarified that they intend to reconnect the bridge after construction of Bayview station, but otherwise the bridge would be essentially "abandoned" in terms of any kind of service coming from the Ontario side.

Yes, that has been the case for 20 years - the track was overgrown long before it was removed. Nobody that owns an actual railway company wants to use the route. If there is ever funding for a trillium line extension then track can be built between the station and bridge.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by acottawa

So you agree there is nothing to be gained from any of these complaints?

At worst the city screwed up the paperwork.

If the city were to actually abandon the PoW bridge, I'd expect MOOSE would scramble to obtain the funding necessary to buy the bridge. Whether they'd be able to do that, I don't know, but I can't see why they wouldn't try.

Basically, it forces the city to either keep it (and acknowledge that they are keeping it) or risk losing control of the bridge.

From a legal perspective, it would set a precedent. If the city is allowed to actually discontinue a federal railway just by "screwing up" some paperwork, then that would basically make Division V of the Canadian Transportation act useless.

Yes, that has been the case for 20 years - the track was overgrown long before it was removed. Nobody that owns an actual railway company wants to use the route. If there is ever funding for a trillium line extension then track can be built between the station and bridge.

The Canadian Transportation Act doesn't care how long it's been. The city only owns the track up to where it reaches the Quebec shoreline which means that anything beyond is no longer a "federal railway".
As you said earlier, do you expect the city to operate a 400m long railway that isn't connected to anything meaningful?

[OtrainUser]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

How deep is the Ottawa River downtown? Is there any practical way to build a railway tunnel under it?

It is too bad that ripped up the track to Kemptville, Carleton Place and Pembroke. The latter has some potential for intercity travel with a population of around 50,000 in the Pembroke-Petawawa area as well as the large military base. This would have made a regional rail plan more viable.

Based on some of the charts i looked at im guessing around 30 feet deep and since the lrt tunnel is 29 feet deep at Rideau Station, putting a tunnel under the Ottawa river is definitely practical.

Its a shame that MOOSE doesn't use common sense and go with this option since the City of Ottawa will never allow them to use the POW bridge.

[OtrainUser]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

I think they "obsess" over the PoW bridge because it's literally the only (realistic) way for a train to cross the river in the city.

Gaining access to the PoW bridge is infinitely more likely than MOOSE tunneling under Bank Street (let alone the Ottawa River) or relaying track on the Alexandria Bridge.

The POW bridge is not the only realistic option and its not even a possibility given the way the city has said they will never be allowed to use the POW bridge.

MOOSE should go with my idea instead of using the trillium line since the destinations downtown would be closer than using the Trillium line tracks therefore eliminating any transfers which is what Ottawa-Gatineau residents hate the most

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by OtrainUser

The POW bridge is not the only realistic option and its not even a possibility given the way the city has said they will never be allowed to use the POW bridge.

MOOSE should go with my idea instead of using the trillium line since the destinations downtown would be closer than using the Trillium line tracks therefore eliminating any transfers which is what Ottawa-Gatineau residents hate the most

Jim Watson said that, not the city. He may be the mayor, but he doesn't have that much power.

Remember when he was against making the city officially bilingual? Well, now he's for it after the Province decided to do it themselves.

He could change his mind again is all I'm saying.

[OtrainUser]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

Jim Watson said that, not the city. He may be the mayor, but he doesn't have that much power.

Remember when he was against making the city officially bilingual? Well, now he's for it after the Province decided to do it themselves.

He could change his mind again is all I'm saying.

Jim Watson has a considerable amount of influence. He could but he wont't given the hostility between him and MOOSE. MOOSE needs to prove they have a viable option and so far they haven't so they wont be able to do anything until they change their routes which is what they need to do.