Great Canadian Skyline Thread II

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Martin Mtl

/\ Great stuff. It never ceases to amaze me how much dense, compact and spectacular the downtown core of Calgary is, and then how it drops abruptly to Sherbrooke-level urbanity. I can't think of any other exemple of such extreme contrast.

Downtown Calgary actually filled in for the fictional city of Metropolis in at least one of the Superman movies.

[itom 987]

^^ Are you sure about that? Row housing can be just as soul sucking as single family homes, probably more. The construction quality is also debatable. Is living in a shoe box among shoe boxes really appealing compared to space surrounded by greenery? Keep in mind that the number of people on any internet skyscraper forum represents a tiiiiny speck of the entire population, the masses can easily drown us out.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by itom 987

^^ Are you sure about that? Row housing can be just as soul sucking as single family homes, probably more. The construction quality is also debatable. Is living in a shoe box among shoe boxes really appealing compared to space surrounded by greenery? Keep in mind that the number of people on any internet skyscraper forum represents a tiiiiny speck of the entire population, the masses can easily drown us out.

Yes I'm sure about that. No, row housing (in a pre-automobile urban setting) can't be as soul sucking as cookie cutter suburbia. And I'm not referring only to people on internet forums but also to urban enthusiasts encountered in daily life, as well as books, articles, documentaries, podcasts, and university lectures etc.

In terms of the row housing, the differentiating factor tends to be less about the housing itself and more about the setting. In Pre-auto areas, there wasn't single-use zoning and they aren't just "shoe boxes among shoe boxes". They're complete neighbourhoods with dense housing, retail, and amenities where over the years a physical diversity has developed (with many buildings being altered and replaced over time) creating a rich sense of character/place. The other difference tends to be the streets. In post-automobile developments, even if the houses are as tightly packed,the streets tend to be wider and more car-friendly.

[TownGuy]

Originally Posted by itom 987

^^ Are you sure about that? Row housing can be just as soul sucking as single family homes, probably more. The construction quality is also debatable. Is living in a shoe box among shoe boxes really appealing compared to space surrounded by greenery? Keep in mind that the number of people on any internet skyscraper forum represents a tiiiiny speck of the entire population, the masses can easily drown us out.

I actually find Toronto green as hell.

Toronto is rung by as green of neighborhoods you're going to see anywhere and they still manage to be urban, dense and walkable. I find it strikes a perfect balance

These aren't some odd ball nice areas literally point and click anywhere









All lead to a nearby retail strip of some sort


I've explored Edmonton and it is somewhat green but the housing is decidedly suburban, roads too wide. Obviously on some small scale you'll find what you do in Toronto but that's the issue, on a small scale, and the rest is too late to be saved. What's there is there.

[itom 987]

^ Edmonton's neighbourhoods adjacent to downtown look somewhat similar to that.

^^ "They're complete neighbourhoods with dense housing, retail, and amenities where over the years a physical diversity has developed (with many buildings being altered and replaced over time) creating a rich sense of character/place."

That eventually happens to all neighbourhoods.

Buildings in Edmonton's inner neighbourhoods have been altered and replaced over time a well. The city is currently subdividing single family lots into skinny houses further enhancing the diversity of those neighbourhoods. London, UK as a prime example of soulless row housing where everything is pretty much the same, everywhere. In my opinion, the row houses in the atlantic provinces don't make me want to live there given how plain they all look. It surprises me to how old they are in spite of them appearing like they were built on the cheap in the '60s. No offence towards those cities as those homes give the area a distinctive character not found anywhere else, just like prairie cities giving their own own distinct character. The ones in Montreal gorgeous but still lack certain amenities that average western families are accustomed to having, such as a yard, single family home, garage, picket fence, and peace & quiet.

When the easterners and europeans moved to western in Canada a hundred years ago, they were looking for a better life. Part of that vision involved having more space and owning a single family home, academics, novelist, and urbanists be damned.

[urbanroo]

Originally Posted by logan5

Yeah that's less than 2 km's from the downtown core. For reference purposes this is 3km's from the dt core in Vancouver.

https://www.google.ca/maps/@49.262901,-1...VomR9OLKvJCTlew!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

Not in any way to suggest that Edmonton has anything like Vancouver's urbanity, but you've chosen a flattering picture location for Vancouver 3km out and compared it to one of the least urban areas of Edmonton 2km from downtown.

Here's another image 3km from downtown Vancouver:
https://www.google.ca/maps/@49.2545988,-...D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en


And here's another one 2km from Edmonton:
https://www.google.com/maps/@53.5180945,...itch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656

[itom 987]

One nice advantage a single family home has over any other housing type is the fact that teenaged kids can host a house party and get away with it.

[urbanroo]

Originally Posted by TownGuy

I actually find Toronto green as hell.

Toronto is rung by as green of neighborhoods you're going to see anywhere and they still manage to be urban, dense and walkable. I find it strikes a perfect balance

These aren't some odd ball nice areas literally point and click anywhere



https://www.google.com/maps/@53.5226532,...M9sazm9c8lYmVI3Dcvaiw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656





All lead to a nearby retail strip of some sort


I've explored Edmonton and it is somewhat green but the housing is decidedly suburban, roads too wide. Obviously on some small scale you'll find what you do in Toronto but that's the issue, on a small scale, and the rest is too late to be saved. What's there is there.

I wish Edmonton was more urban and had more historic housing stock, but alas, it's a young city and in 1914 the population was only 72000. It's not all ticky-tacky suburban sprawl, however. Here's some of its inner-city residential neighborhoods, all of which are very green:

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.5542978,...juJQq1cBF_iETTMh3o_Zg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.522651,-...GkB4pRa60JJTMVMz037jQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.5315442,...j_pUwLmc1_WyU8ZcrPkvQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.5244581,...2jT3QjFadlfA-ovgIvmNA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.5448081,...itch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656

[TownGuy]

For sure there are nice areas but they exist in small pockets. Age isn't really going to add much as the built form is already in place. Vegetation will be enhanced with time but the built form will still have been developed for the car. As has been mentioned I think it has less to do with how young Edmonton is but rather when it developed.

[urbanroo]

Originally Posted by TownGuy

For sure there are nice areas but they exist in small pockets. Age isn't really going to add much as the built form is already in place. Vegetation will be enhanced with time but the built form will still have been developed for the car. As has been mentioned I think it has less to do with how young Edmonton is but rather when it developed.

One of the worst problems is that in the 1960s-80s all kinds of older buildings were ripped down in the inner city and repurposed as empty lots like this: https://www.google.com/maps/@53.5441352,...U3w!2e0!5s20090401T000000!7i13312!8i6656.

These are now being filled in:

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.5441821,...ylA!2e0!5s20161001T000000!7i13312!8i6656

This horrific wasteland is the very worst of it:

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.5420473,...k4g!2e0!5s20090401T000000!7i13312!8i6656

Though there are plans to turn it into a central urban park:

http://edmontonjournal.com/news/local-ne...ansform-downtown-parking-lots-into-parks

Another problem, as you say, is a lot of development happened in the 1950s and 1960s, when wide lots and bungalows were all the rage:

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.5430319,...lkEmcp03weP1ylRvtcvAvQ!2e0!7i3328!8i1664

Some of this, though, is now being filled in with 2-3 story "skinny homes"

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.5429977,...MLQ!2e0!5s20161001T000000!7i13312!8i6656

So there are things that can be done. It's never going to be Toronto in the same way that Toronto is never going to be Paris. But there are ways that the city can fill in its core areas. Edmonton does have a pretty large area of mature urban canopy, so that's something it can work with.

[itom 987]

If you scroll back in time in the last example urbanroo posted you will find the bungalow that was there before it made way for skinny houses.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by itom 987

^ Edmonton's neighbourhoods adjacent to downtown look somewhat similar to that.

^^ "They're complete neighbourhoods with dense housing, retail, and amenities where over the years a physical diversity has developed (with many buildings being altered and replaced over time) creating a rich sense of character/place."

That eventually happens to all neighbourhoods.

You said that "Edmonton's urban form will never look like the urban form out east" but you're now suggesting that it eventually will?

Originally Posted by itom 987

Buildings in Edmonton's inner neighbourhoods have been altered and replaced over time a well. The city is currently subdividing single family lots into skinny houses further enhancing the diversity of those neighbourhoods. London, UK as a prime example of soulless row housing where everything is pretty much the same, everywhere. In my opinion, the row houses in the atlantic provinces don't make me want to live there given how plain they all look. It surprises me to how old they are in spite of them appearing like they were built on the cheap in the '60s. No offence towards those cities as those homes give the area a distinctive character not found anywhere else, just like prairie cities giving their own own distinct character. The ones in Montreal gorgeous but still lack certain amenities that average western families are accustomed to having, such as a yard, single family home, garage, picket fence, and peace & quiet.

When the easterners and europeans moved to western in Canada a hundred years ago, they were looking for a better life. Part of that vision involved having more space and owning a single family home, academics, novelist, and urbanists be damned.

I think what you're overlooking is that most of the pre-automobile era houses in the Atlantic provinces have yards (usually back yards). And in Halifax's case often rather generous ones. And Halifax's pre-automobile fabric is not solely row homes, but also apartment buildings and semi detached and detached (but still densely built) houses.

But regardless of what people historically intended or wanted, it doesn't lessen the functionality or efficiency of denser development styles. But I think you've successfully answered my original question. I asked from what perspective it could be viewed as a good thing that Edmonton's built form will never resemble the east given the urbanist consensus the pre-automobile development is superior. The unsurprising answer is, "from a suburban enthusiast perspective".

[hipster duck]

I think Edmonton actually has quite a bit of potential because it has long, straight retail strips that are somewhat underutilized like 107 Ave. and 118 Ave. NW. It's not inconceivable that the addition of midrise apartment buildings with retail at grade, regular pedestrian crossing lights and frequent bus service could turn these streets into something resembling at least this.

It's not like Edmonton has nothing to work with. Some US cities that are actually quite a bit older and bigger than Edmonton have a lot less. Houston is one that comes to mind. This is basically their most urban neighbourhood.

[rousseau]

Edmonton/Calgary/Winnipeg etc. are to Toronto as Toronto is to northeastern cities like New York and Montreal. You can argue that Toronto's urban form is a lot more dense and funky than a prairie city, and it certainly is, but then Toronto's outside of the city centre is itself practically pastoral compared to the Plateau and, well, anywhere in Manhattan and most of Brooklyn.

I love Toronto's core neighbourhoods, but the city would be a lot cooler if it had an inner ring full of this:


http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=207340&page=336

Before you got to this:


http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?p=7897149

The increasing midrise density in the city is serving to help Toronto play catch-up, but it's spotty infill, not 19th century rows.

[Vixx]

The thing with Edmonton is that you can tell the cyclical boom/bust cycles of past decades have affected it much more then say Calgary, which is a younger city then Edmonton. The transition from leaving downtown and following the river valley road and entering Old Strathcona has resulted in the best urban built form in Alberta and is a top 10 candidate in Canada no doubt. And then you see angles like what itom posted earlier and its a just a cluster fuck of chain restaurants with random LRT crossings. Frugal times lead to some stupid decisions and other times lead to a great unique character in the city.

Edmonton has come a long way since the 90's. It is finally filling in and addressing the huge swaths of parking lots that plagued downtown for awhile (although there's still a ways to go) and derelict buildings are being repurposed and reused. However the city has still got a lot to address and must realize (this goes for prairie cities in general) that they will never be a Toronto or Vancouver; can they learn a lot from them? No shit, and that goes for the good urban form of inner city neighbourhoods and also looking at how not to recreate another soul less Mississauga. I was actually going to point to Houston (someone beat me to it) as another city that, while is much larger then Edmonton or Calgary for that matter, has such a lack of urban diversity and is so suburban focused that it makes Edmonton look like an urban paradise.

One major issue Edmonton should address is the disaster that is along the Yellowhead highway. So many industrial parks, derelict buildings, poor roads. There's some potential there, but it doesnt seem like there is any initiative to do so.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

I think what you're overlooking is that most of the pre-automobile era houses in the Atlantic provinces have yards (usually back yards). And in Halifax's case often rather generous ones. And Halifax's pre-automobile fabric is not solely row homes, but also apartment buildings and semi detached and detached (but still densely built) houses.

Yeah, that was a weird comment. There is a style of plain wooden box rowhouse that was the low-end housing in a few Atlantic cities up until around 1900 but that is not the only style of rowhouse.

These are some from Halifax:

Some plainer ones (this was the poor part of town):









These would have been lower-end housing too:

The Hydrostone neighbourhood is row housing. It's got a decent amount of green space and is popular with families.

[Nouvellecosse]

I wish I had some pictures of the back yards. I was quite surprised the first time I was in the back yard of one of those houses.

[urbanroo]

Originally Posted by someone123

Yeah, that was a weird comment. There is a style of plain wooden box rowhouse that was the low-end housing in a few Atlantic cities up until around 1900 but that is not the only style of rowhouse.

These are some from Halifax:

Some plainer ones (this was the poor part of town):









These would have been lower-end housing too:

The Hydrostone neighbourhood is row housing. It's got a decent amount of green space and is popular with families.

Those are beautiful--my ideal type of housing, and as an Edmontonian, I'm duly jealous.

Does anyone have an example of modern row housing that is aesthetically pleasing? One of Edmonton's struggles (and that of other young cities) as it re-urbanizes its core is it has lots of 30-40 story towers going up, but nothing at a smaller scale that would appeal to families. Here's a few examples of the row housing we do have, but it's all a little hideous:

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.5430186,...itch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.535276,-...Hug!2e0!5s20160901T000000!7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.5430465,...-udafh08RDtAe9DtLayGA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

These ones aren't so bad, I suppose:

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.5529847,...OG9Hp7A5Tq9XXahyVe4Hw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.5352111,...itch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.5467948,...itch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.5493745,...1Ep9h1QaD7k_aEVukrw9A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

[DrJoe]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Edmonton/Calgary/Winnipeg etc. are to Toronto as Toronto is to northeastern cities like New York and Montreal. You can argue that Toronto's urban form is a lot more dense and funky than a prairie city, and it certainly is, but then Toronto's outside of the city centre is itself practically pastoral compared to the Plateau and, well, anywhere in Manhattan and most of Brooklyn.

I love Toronto's core neighbourhoods, but the city would be a lot cooler if it had an inner ring full of this:


http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=207340&page=336

Before you got to this:


http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?p=7897149

The increasing midrise density in the city is serving to help Toronto play catch-up, but it's spotty infill, not 19th century rows.

This is a great analogy and you're quite right. Though you can find the odd pocket like that in Toronto there isn't really enough to form anything.

However I think this a strength of Toronto, it enjoys the best of both worlds. The older neighborhoods are practically forests in some cases and yet they are walkable, dense and urban at the same time, a certain sweet spot between two worlds of thinking and highly livable.

I mean...

https://goo.gl/maps/hAXMmXBRraU2

https://goo.gl/maps/UTtK4qHCvNB2

https://goo.gl/maps/kEj8RMTSq6C2

https://goo.gl/maps/FCz4cKAndQx

[softee]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Edmonton/Calgary/Winnipeg etc. are to Toronto as Toronto is to northeastern cities like New York and Montreal. You can argue that Toronto's urban form is a lot more dense and funky than a prairie city, and it certainly is, but then Toronto's outside of the city centre is itself practically pastoral compared to the Plateau and, well, anywhere in Manhattan and most of Brooklyn.

I love Toronto's core neighbourhoods, but the city would be a lot cooler if it had an inner ring full of this:


http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=207340&page=336

Before you got to this:


http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?p=7897149

The increasing midrise density in the city is serving to help Toronto play catch-up, but it's spotty infill, not 19th century rows.

Toronto does have an inner ring that consists of a mixture of mostly rowhouses and semi-detached homes that extends several kilometres East of West of the downtown core and up to just past Bloor street in the North. Of course these are the oldest residential neighbourhoods in the city, and many of the rowhouses are sort of haphazardly located in sections here and there from street to street rather than making up solid blocks of entire neighbourhoods.

The Bay and Gable style rows are quite prevalent and are the best known style, and there are many others that are plain and utilitarian in appearance -- but there are also some rather handsome rows in and around the core that seem to have been designed as upper class housing in the late 19th century.

Some examples:

https://goo.gl/maps/CkLBzrPZwx32

https://goo.gl/maps/UF5d4g5iT222

https://goo.gl/maps/tQmchRC4f372

https://goo.gl/maps/2fk6A3bNjA72

https://goo.gl/maps/chBYaou4t712

https://goo.gl/maps/KxTfkb4RiZU2

https://goo.gl/maps/xVX7rtttGJx