Halifax Stadium Discussion

[someone123]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

I have to say that I've never really understood the 'rivalry' between Moncton and Halifax. There are things that I like about both, but I would never really compare them as though they are all that similar.

One cultural thing I used to notice about Atlantic Canada that is less true in many other places in North America is that many Atlantic Canadians view the economy as zero-sum, and view economic activity as the product of goodies that are doled out by higher powers like the provincial or federal governments. Because of this belief they think that what goes to city A doesn't go to city B. But in reality there is a lot of creation that grows the pie for everybody, or there should be. Most of the economic activity happening in Moncton and Halifax is pretty independent, and in the case of Moncton in particular I think having a larger city a couple hours away is pretty advantageous. There are also many kinds of "goodies" that go to Halifax that can't go to Moncton anyway. Shipbuilding is one example.

There is another sense of "rivalry" in which two cities are simply similar to each other and either one could attain the number one spot within a reasonable time frame. AB and SK have cities like this. Halifax and Moncton aren't really like this; one is 3x larger than the other and they are in two different provinces. Saint John and Moncton on the other hand are close together.

There's also a natural inclination for cities to look "upward" when competing or talking about development. The reality is that in the smaller cities in Atlantic Canada there is an asymmetric focus on Halifax, whereas in Halifax there tends to be more talk about cities outside the region. I am thinking specifically about areas like urban planning. This is only natural because of the difference in scale.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by someone123

One cultural thing I used to notice about Atlantic Canada that is less true in many other places in North America is that many Atlantic Canadians view the economy as zero-sum, and view economic activity as the product of goodies that are doled out by higher powers like the provincial or federal governments.

Very true. I always found this Atlantic Canadian trait exasperating and reminiscent of 6 year olds fighting over a toy.

Regarding the Moncton - Halifax rivalry. It only exists in the mind of those in Moncton. Haligonians have never viewed Moncton as a rival. 100 years ago they viewed Saint John as one but that withered as Saint John flat lined.

[cjones2451]

Just saw this on TSN from Dave Naylor

http://www.tsn.ca/group-makes-very-credible-pitch-for-halifax-cfl-franchise-1.917745

A group of businessmen with ties to Eastern Canada would like to make the Canadian Football League’s dream of a tenth franchise come true in Halifax.
The group made a presentation to the league’s board of governors several weeks ago in Toronto. Meetings have since taken place with various levels of government in Nova Scotia, including an in-camera session with Halifax city council this week that was attended by CFL commissioner Randy Ambrosie.
“We have had discussions with the CFL’s board of governors and ongoing discussions with commissioner Ambrosie,” said Anthony Leblanc, a partner in the group and former president and CEO of the NHL’s Arizona Coyotes.
“The conversations have all been very productive. Chief among all we have discussed, we have a clear understanding of the CFL’s requirements for an expansion franchise, and this clarity is allowing us to move our project forward in a thoughtful way.”
Along with Leblanc, whose family is from New Brunswick and who began his business career in the province, the group includes Bruce Bowser, a Halifax native who is currently president of AMJ Campbell Van Lines, and Gary Drummond, a businessman from Regina who was president of hockey operations for the Coyotes.
A league spokesman confirmed it had received an expression of interest for a Halifax franchise but said that a process and timetable for awarding a team has yet to be established.
One CFL source described the group’s presentation as “very credible.”
The Halifax group is modelling its plan on that of the Ottawa Sports and Entertainment Group, which received a conditional franchise from the CFL in 2008 and then redeveloped Frank Clair Stadium and the land surrounding it.
It’s believed the Halifax group would like to have a conditional franchise granted before the start of the 2018 CFL season, with a goal of beginning play as soon as 2020.
The potential owners want to brand the franchise to identity not just with Halifax but all of Atlantic Canada.
Halifax mayor Mike Savage has been on record as saying he would like to see his city host a CFL franchise. Sources say discussions with Savage and members of his council have been very positive over the past few months.
Central to the idea is the construction of a multi-purpose stadium, at one of several locations currently being explored – one of which is the Shannon Park, located next to the A. Murray MacKay Bridge.
Commissioner Ambrosie is expected to update the league’s board of governors on the state of the Halifax proposal when they meet the day before Grey Cup Sunday.
Besides expanding the league’s television footprint into Atlantic Canada, a Halifax-based franchise would allow the league to create two five-team divisions and avoid the number of bye weeks required with a nine-team league.
The CFL awarded a conditional franchise to a Halifax group in 1982 under the name Atlantic Schooners but the financing to build a suitable stadium never materialized.
Dating back to the mid-1980s, the CFL has staged exhibition games in Halifax. In 2010, 2011 and 2013 it played three regular-season games in Moncton, N.B.

[q12]

CFL CONFIRMS DISCUSSIONS HAVE TAKEN PLACE REGARDING HALIFAX EXPANSION

https://www.cfl.ca/2017/11/16/cfl-responds-report-potential-future-expansion-halifax/
➡️ http://on.cfl.ca/cJ2b30gDfeg

https://twitter.com/CFL/status/931284343628103680

#CFL Twitter?

A little excited about Halifax expansion news ➡️ http://on.cfl.ca/dqah30gDhqT

https://twitter.com/CFL/status/931292498026254337

[Colin May]

Feel free to spend your own money. HRM does not have money for a stadium and I am sure private enterprise can build a stadium on time and on budget, unlike HRM which spent many millions on an underpass. Truro is closer for the fans in NB and PEI.

[q12]

^I don't think the CFL or it's investor's were asking you for your money specifically.

We are trying to increase immigration and improve the age demographics of this region. Some young people and immigrants are attracted to cities who have professional sports franchises (football, soccer).

The Canadian Premier League (soccer) franchise seems to be a done deal and now we are hearing that a private investment deal may bring the CFL here as well.

Try to be positive, life is too short.

Also they didn't build IKEA in Truro.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by q12

Also they didn't build IKEA in Truro.

I think it's important to remember that distance matters as well as population. A person who lives 10 minutes from IKEA is going to go there a lot more frequently on average than somebody who lives 4 hours away.

The market for something where you have to physically go someplace (not, say, watch TV) is something like:

market ~ (total number of people) / (average distance per person)

Most people, bigger market. Bigger average distance, smaller market. It is probably actually more like:

market ~ (total number of people) / (average distance per person)^2

In other words, the amount of business drops off quickly as you are farther away. With this type of model, having a local market that's 3-10x larger will completely swamp any advantage of having a slightly larger regional market.

[Colin May]

Originally Posted by someone123

I think it's important to remember that distance matters as well as population. A person who lives 10 minutes from IKEA is going to go there a lot more frequently on average than somebody who lives 4 hours away.

The market for something where you have to physically go someplace (not, say, watch TV) is something like:

market ~ (total number of people) / (average distance per person)

Most people, bigger market. Bigger average distance, smaller market. It is probably actually more like:

market ~ (total number of people) / (average distance per person)^2

In other words, the amount of business drops off quickly as you are farther away. With this type of model, having a local market that's 3-10x larger will completely swamp any advantage of having a slightly larger regional market.

And IKEA is open every day and did not have a secret meeting with the HRM council prior to making a decision. And 3 hours at IKEA is much more inspiring. And the snacks are cheap - $1 for a hot dog. Not to mention there are more customers and jobs for an IKEA store in Dartmouth than any sports franchise.
Waye Mason has posted on twitter : " Same as always - needs to be business / private sector lead - need to see a season ticket drive to prove the support - cannot be a municipal lead project but some partnerships possible. No capacity to spend 250 mil on a stadium. "

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Colin May

... Truro is closer for the fans in NB and PEI.

True, but I'm sure most people wouldn't mind traveling the extra 45 minutes to stay in a place where there is a lot more to do when they're not at the game.

[eastcoastal]

Originally Posted by Colin May

... Truro is closer for the fans in NB and PEI.

Truro is not THAT much closer. The difference is basically an average commute in a larger city.

I don't think it matters much whether it's Truro or Halifax to be honest. Once someone from PEI or NB gets in the car and starts driving, the extra km are not much more of a commitment than the first 4+ hours.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by Colin May

And IKEA is open every day and did not have a secret meeting with the HRM council prior to making a decision. And 3 hours at IKEA is much more inspiring. And the snacks are cheap - $1 for a hot dog. Not to mention there are more customers and jobs for an IKEA store in Dartmouth than any sports franchise.
Waye Mason has posted on twitter : " Same as always - needs to be business / private sector lead - need to see a season ticket drive to prove the support - cannot be a municipal lead project but some partnerships possible. No capacity to spend 250 mil on a stadium. "

Mason is dissembling as he typically does. HRM has plenty of capacity for a stadium. He likes to brag about how the debt-to-something ratio of HRM is so much lower than the average when defending wasteful HRM capital spending on bike lanes, libraries, flyover ramps and 4-pad arenas which are popping up like mushrooms. A couple of hundred million is pocket change for HRM these days since they are awash in cash. Plus we all know Mayor Mike wants a stadium, SMU wants a stadium so their CFL players have a place to show off their skills, and various other groups want a stadium for concerts and the like. Mason's comments are just his usual deceptive, misleading talk. Prepare to pony up, taxpayers. It is going to happen.

[Colin May]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Mason is dissembling as he typically does. HRM has plenty of capacity for a stadium. He likes to brag about how the debt-to-something ratio of HRM is so much lower than the average when defending wasteful HRM capital spending on bike lanes, libraries, flyover ramps and 4-pad arenas which are popping up like mushrooms. A couple of hundred million is pocket change for HRM these days since they are awash in cash. Plus we all know Mayor Mike wants a stadium, SMU wants a stadium so their CFL players have a place to show off their skills, and various other groups want a stadium for concerts and the like. Mason's comments are just his usual deceptive, misleading talk. Prepare to pony up, taxpayers. It is going to happen.

I doubt the Minister of Municipal Affairs would approve the expenditure and the necessary borrowing. The Municipal Finance Corporation issues debt and the annual amount is restricted by the province. A municipality cannot issue its own debt instruments. I cannot see Premier McNeil agreeing to any significant debt being issued to finance a stadium.

[JET]

IKEA, 90 minutes in a lineup for a buck hotdog, not so appealing.

[eastcoastal]

Originally Posted by JET

IKEA, 90 minutes in a lineup for a buck hotdog, not so appealing.

yikes. I've been three times, and aside from an hour on preview day, I've not spent more than five minutes in line. Go on a weekday. If you must go on a weekend, go an hour before close.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Mason is dissembling as he typically does. HRM has plenty of capacity for a stadium. He likes to brag about how the debt-to-something ratio of HRM is so much lower than the average when defending wasteful HRM capital spending on bike lanes, libraries, flyover ramps and 4-pad arenas which are popping up like mushrooms. A couple of hundred million is pocket change for HRM these days since they are awash in cash. Plus we all know Mayor Mike wants a stadium, SMU wants a stadium so their CFL players have a place to show off their skills, and various other groups want a stadium for concerts and the like. Mason's comments are just his usual deceptive, misleading talk. Prepare to pony up, taxpayers. It is going to happen.

I have never found "we can't afford it!" type arguments compelling. The same people who one minute claim that the city needs to be fiscally prudent when discussing a project they don't like suddenly treat money like it's no object when they're discussing a project they do like.

A good argument involves costs and benefits for the whole city. Very little of that information seems to have been released yet, so it is premature to rule out a stadium project. We don't know what it will cost the city and we don't know what it will be used for.

[Colin May]

$100 million was the number thrown around a few years ago in HRM.
Good article (almost 2 years old) here : http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metro...a9df94c-6107-539c-9a97-a1f56903068f.html

[q12]

S|E|A (Halifax Canadian Premier League backers) statement on CFL:

Lots of questions re: our position on CFL in Halifax story so here you go:
1 - We have had some discussions with the group but are not currently part of it.

2 - We believe a rising tide lifts all boats so we support any effort to bring more sports & ent options to Halifax.

3 – We believe the global sport of soccer is on the upswing and has a bright future in Canada. We also believe the soccer fan demographic aligns very well with the emerging identity of Halifax as an urban dense, youth and immigrant friendly, international city.

4 – We believe our accepted proposal for a right sized, privately funded, modular stadium located in the heart of downtown on the historic Wanderers Grounds is the best option for our downtown and our community right now but we are excited to see what the future brings.

https://twitter.com/ProducedBySEA/status/931608577017511938

David William Naylor‏
@TSNDaveNaylor

Halifax mayor Mike Savage to local radio on CFL expansion to his city: "This is the certainly the closest we've ever been, the furthest along, and the most serious we've seen a group come together on this." #CFL #Halifax

https://twitter.com/TSNDaveNaylor/status/931570976843845632

[Colin May]

Mayor Savage : " Show me your money "
Proponents : " Err... "

[q12]

MUST WATCH INTERVIEW:
http://atlantic.ctvnews.ca/video?clipId=1264038

[MonctonRad]

So, CTV News is hot on this story. They ferreted out three of the four competing sites to host the new stadium and, as I suspected, none of them are on the peninsula.

1) - Shannon Park - apparently not seriously being considered this time around because the stadium will have to be privately financed and self sustaining.
2) - Bayers Lake - have been approached by the CFL group. The site could be ready to build on by the summer of 2018. Not the first choice however because of poor access and traffic gridlock.
3) - Dartmouth Crossing - apparently the first choice of the mayor. Have also been contacted by the CFL group. Easy road access on the edge of town with lots of nearby attractions (like IKEA) that could benefit from synergy from the presence of the stadium. New hotels already being built in the area. Since the stadium would have to be self sustaining, it would likely be easy to build and lease the associated commercial/residential/retail component to the project necessary to make the stadium viable.