O-Train Line 2/4 [Stage 2 | Greenboro to Limebank/Airport] | In Service

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by roger1818

This statement always bothers me. There are no plans to extend the line to Stittsville. Yes there is talk about extending it as far as the CTC in Kanata, but I can't see that happening once it is official that the Senators are moving (I don't think it should extend beyond Terry Fox as buses would be adequate beyond that). I do agree that the extension to Trim Rd is ridiculous though. I think the park and ride lot there was too tantalizing for the politicians.

IMHO, our priorities should be (in approximate order of priority, though some are close, and priorities could change over time):

1. Extend Confederation line to Baseline/Bayshore(Moodie?)
2. Extend Confederation line to Place d'Orléans
3. Extend south-eastern transitway to Earl Armstrong Dr.(and add bus lanes to Earl Armstrong Dr.)
4. Upgrade and extend Trillium Line to Airport
5. Baseline BRT (Baseline to Hurdman)
6. Extend Confederation Line to Terry Fox
7. Extend Baseline BRT to Bayshore
8. Carling LRT (only this high because it is low hanging fruit)
9. Extend Confederation Line to Fallowfield (or Marketplace Station)
10. New north/south LRT line to downtown (Bank St or similar),
11. New north-east LRT line Rideau to Vanier Parkway
12. Extend north-east LRT line to Blair Rd or Montreal Rd Station.
13. Extend new north/south LRT line to Earl Armstrong Dr.

A Gatineau LRT extension should be inserted there somewhere. I am also missing a few of the suburban busways that are planned.

Here are my priorities after stage 2;

1. Extend the Confederation Line to the CTC. Yes, the Sens will be moving downtown, but the CTC site will probably be developed into a medium or high density area. It also has plenty of room for a large format park and ride (multi-level parking structure integrated into a building). Stations at Eagleson, Kanata Lake, Teery Fox, Tager and CTC. East-West line is complete. (2030)
2. LRT to Alylmer, paid for by Gatineau, Québec and Feds. Does not affect Ottawa's budget in any way. Route; Alexandre-Taché, up St-Raymond, through Le Plateau and south-west to Aylmer. (2032)
3. Bank-Rideau-Montreal subway, serving Lansdowne Park and city's densest neighborhoods. Branches off at Aviation; one line to CFB, one line to La Cité and Blair. All post-secondary institutions now served. At Lansdowne, line would south split to Billings Bridge and west towards Carling to Lincoln Fields. (2040)
4. Convert Barrhaven Trasitway as Confederation Line extension to Barrhaven Town Centre. We will have had about 30 years of use of the BRT so that the initial investment could be considered worth it. (2045)
5. Double Track and electrify Trillium Line, build new tunnel downtown for Trillium under Laurier and loop it around through the SE Transitway to the airport. (2060)
6. Convert Rapibus and build lrt from Buckingham to Alesandre-Taché station, tunnel (for both east and west Gatineau Lines) under Laurier (Hull) to the Museum of Civilization, cross the Alexandra Bridge, tunnel from National Gallery to Rideau, then west using new Trillium tunnel and loop back up across POW. (2050)
7. Cumberland extension of the Confederation Line. (2050)

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

We need to move away from the mindset of building Transitways and then convert it to LRT later. In the long run this is very costly (we end up rebuilding far more than we originally think) and it is extremely disruptive to the transit system during the transition. Look at all the delays during construction (and loss of ridership) and the extra costs of relocating buses temporarily. If we are building a Transitway in the future, it must be permanent. If we are thinking that we will upgrade even a generation away, we should be building LRT from the get go. Look at the Moodie extension. Good grief, what a waste to build a Transitway for just a couple of years.

It's infuriating when the City does this. We've know since at least 2010 that DND was planning a move to Nortel. The City should have at that point shelved the Moodie BRT extension and re-evaluate. How many tens of millions have we wasted on studies and construction of a BRT branch that will be converted a mere what, 2 years after opening?

Trillium is another example of money wasted. 80 million a few years ago to upgrade the line. Not only were the results in frequency no where neat what was expected, but the reliability (shut-downs) seems worse than before.

And now, it will be shut down again only a few years after the "upgrade' for a new, 600 million upgrade.

All that wasted money and the City wouldn't even consider a little extra 40 million for a third CBD station to avoid overcrowding downtown. Or even a 10-20 million compromise of shifting Parliament Station one block east or a pedestrian tunnel (for which Jeff Gillan offered 1 million) to the NAC.

Imagine what could have been done with the billion dollars or so wasted or to be wasted within 10 years.

As for BRTs, I'm not opposed to the Baseline Transitway or Hospital link since they are not likely to ever be converted, but no other BRTs should ever be built in the Ottawa-Gatineau region.

[OtrainUser]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

It's infuriating when the City does this. We've know since at least 2010 that DND was planning a move to Nortel. The City should have at that point shelved the Moodie BRT extension and re-evaluate. How many tens of millions have we wasted on studies and construction of a BRT branch that will be converted a mere what, 2 years after opening?

Trillium is another example of money wasted. 80 million a few years ago to upgrade the line. Not only were the results in frequency no where neat what was expected, but the reliability (shut-downs) seems worse than before.

And now, it will be shut down again only a few years after the "upgrade' for a new, 600 million upgrade.

All that wasted money and the City wouldn't even consider a little extra 40 million for a third CBD station to avoid overcrowding downtown. Or even a 10-20 million compromise of shifting Parliament Station one block east or a pedestrian tunnel (for which Jeff Gillan offered 1 million) to the NAC.

Imagine what could have been done with the billion dollars or so wasted or to be wasted within 10 years.

As for BRTs, I'm not opposed to the Baseline Transitway or Hospital link since they are not likely to ever be converted, but no other BRTs should ever be built in the Ottawa-Gatineau region.

Thats the funny part, Stage 2 involves extending the western transitway to Kanata when they know full well they plan to convert it to light rail in Stage 3a. I guess the city of Ottawa likes to waste money

[OtrainUser]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Here are my priorities after stage 2;

1. Extend the Confederation Line to the CTC. Yes, the Sens will be moving downtown, but the CTC site will probably be developed into a medium or high density area. It also has plenty of room for a large format park and ride (multi-level parking structure integrated into a building). Stations at Eagleson, Kanata Lake, Teery Fox, Tager and CTC. East-West line is complete. (2030)
2. LRT to Alylmer, paid for by Gatineau, Québec and Feds. Does not affect Ottawa's budget in any way. Route; Alexandre-Taché, up St-Raymond, through Le Plateau and south-west to Aylmer. (2032)
3. Bank-Rideau-Montreal subway, serving Lansdowne Park and city's densest neighborhoods. Branches off at Aviation; one line to CFB, one line to La Cité and Blair. All post-secondary institutions now served. At Lansdowne, line would south split to Billings Bridge and west towards Carling to Lincoln Fields. (2040)
4. Convert Barrhaven Trasitway as Confederation Line extension to Barrhaven Town Centre. We will have had about 30 years of use of the BRT so that the initial investment could be considered worth it. (2045)
5. Double Track and electrify Trillium Line, build new tunnel downtown for Trillium under Laurier and loop it around through the SE Transitway to the airport. (2060)
6. Convert Rapibus and build lrt from Buckingham to Alesandre-Taché station, tunnel (for both east and west Gatineau Lines) under Laurier (Hull) to the Museum of Civilization, cross the Alexandra Bridge, tunnel from National Gallery to Rideau, then west using new Trillium tunnel and loop back up across POW. (2050)
7. Cumberland extension of the Confederation Line. (2050)

I like this and this would be the most preferred option in my opinion

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by OtrainUser

Thats the funny part, Stage 2 involves extending the western transitway to Kanata when they know full well they plan to convert it to light rail in Stage 3a. I guess the city of Ottawa likes to waste money

This is the first I have heard of an extension of the Transitway to Kanata as part of stage 2. Can you provide a reference with more details? What would they do with the bus lanes on the 417?

[Multi-modal]

Originally Posted by roger1818

This is the first I have heard of an extension of the Transitway to Kanata as part of stage 2. Can you provide a reference with more details? What would they do with the bus lanes on the 417?

I assume what is meant is that it is on the map on the Stage 2 website:

http://www.stage2lrt.ca/where/

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Multi-modal

I assume what is meant is that it is on the map on the Stage 2 website:

http://www.stage2lrt.ca/where/

They also show the Baseline BRT on that map, but it isn't part of Stage 2 construction. AFAIK, that is the only future BRT project that has gone anywhere beyond a line on a map (other than the Moodie extension, which is almost complete)

[Multi-modal]

Originally Posted by roger1818

They also show the Baseline BRT on that map, but it isn't part of Stage 2 construction. AFAIK, that is the only future BRT project that has gone anywhere beyond a line on a map (other than the Moodie extension, which is almost complete)

Yep, to my knowledge there is no EA to extend the Transitway to Kanata, whereas they are currently conducting an EA to extend the LRT to Kanata. It just shows Transitway on the map, which could be confusing for some people.

The Cumberland Transitway is getting its EA updated to correspond with a study to link Brian Coburn (possibly) directly with Anderson Road, see link below:

https://www.ottawacommunitynews.com/news...ve-route-for-blackburn-bypass-extension/

[lrt's friend]

Certainly the proposed route to South Orleans does not provide better service to Blackburn Hamlet with the only access being through the bush a significant distance south of the community. Just take a drive out there to see how pedestrian unfriendly the area is compared where the bus route presently runs.

[FFX-ME]

Originally Posted by Multi-modal

Yep, to my knowledge there is no EA to extend the Transitway to Kanata, whereas they are currently conducting an EA to extend the LRT to Kanata. It just shows Transitway on the map, which could be confusing for some people.

The Cumberland Transitway is getting its EA updated to correspond with a study to link Brian Coburn (possibly) directly with Anderson Road, see link below:

https://www.ottawacommunitynews.com/news...ve-route-for-blackburn-bypass-extension/

Is that link safe for work??? lol ass-extension. Pardon my immaturity but the automatic shortening here is hilarious.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Here are my priorities after stage 2;

1. Extend the Confederation Line to the CTC. Yes, the Sens will be moving downtown, but the CTC site will probably be developed into a medium or high density area. It also has plenty of room for a large format park and ride (multi-level parking structure integrated into a building). Stations at Eagleson, Kanata Lake, Teery Fox, Tager and CTC. East-West line is complete. (2030)

I disagree with you on this one. Eagleson, Kanata Lake, Teery Fox, for sure. I don't see how Tanger is a large enough draw to warrant LRT, and there is too much unknown about the future of the CTC to make it our top priority. Keep the ROW for sure, but wait until there is something worth going to.

As for a multi-level parking garage, that would be too expensive for this location. If they were to build one, I would put it at the Orleans P&R or Eagleson, before the CTC.

2. LRT to Alylmer, paid for by Gatineau, Québec and Feds. Does not affect Ottawa's budget in any way. Route; Alexandre-Taché, up St-Raymond, through Le Plateau and south-west to Aylmer. (2032)

Sure. If it doesn't affect Ottawa, I wouldn't put it on the list, but Okay

3. Bank-Rideau-Montreal subway, serving Lansdowne Park and city's densest neighborhoods. Branches off at Aviation; one line to CFB, one line to La Cité and Blair. All post-secondary institutions now served. At Lansdowne, line would south split to Billings Bridge and west towards Carling to Lincoln Fields. (2040)

As a long term plan, I like your idea. I don't think we can afford to do all of this by 2040 and given the cost, I don't think it should be this high, as we should grab some lower hanging fruit first. I would certainly start planning it though. My fear is it would consume all of our transit infrastructure investment for decades and should be balanced with other projects.

4. Convert Barrhaven Trasitway as Confederation Line extension to Barrhaven Town Centre. We will have had about 30 years of use of the BRT so that the initial investment could be considered worth it. (2045)

The Woodroffe BRT route to Fallowfield Station opened in 2005, so it would be 40 years. I don't see the need to wait a specific number of years though. What was build, was done with the best information at the time and to serve a specific need. We should consider the future when making decisions, but if needs change, the plan should be free to change accordingly. Personally I think an extension to Fallowfield should be done before 2045.

5. Double Track and electrify Trillium Line, build new tunnel downtown for Trillium under Laurier and loop it around through the SE Transitway to the airport. (2060)

I would let the dust settle from the Bank St. LRT as well as progress of LeBreton Flats. before making any decisions on this line.

6. Convert Rapibus and build lrt from Buckingham to Alesandre-Taché station, tunnel (for both east and west Gatineau Lines) under Laurier (Hull) to the Museum of Civilization, cross the Alexandra Bridge, tunnel from National Gallery to Rideau, then west using new Trillium tunnel and loop back up across POW. (2050)

Sounds ambitious for 2050 given all the other priorities.

7. Cumberland extension of the Confederation Line. (2050)

I can't even believe this is on your priority list. Cumberland is about the same distance from downtown as Stittsville but has about a fifth of the population. I don't think either should be on a 30 year plan. There are probably 5 other routes I would pick before Cumberland.

[Richard Eade]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Certainly the proposed route to South Orleans does not provide better service to Blackburn Hamlet with the only access being through the bush a significant distance south of the community. Just take a drive out there to see how pedestrian unfriendly the area is compared where the bus route presently runs.

Because during the planning of the route there was STRONG push-back by the community to having a busway any closer. They wanted walking routes to a distant routing - nothing within their village.

The City does not force people to take facilities that would improve their lives. The same thing is happening out in the west end with Crystal Beach; they want the train as far away from them as they can get it. The difference there, of course, is that the City's 'cheapness' is winning, since the City doesn't want to extend the line and have to pay for any more underpasses or NCC land.

Of course there is the other side of the coin as well: The City should be building an LRT station for Jasmine; where people actually want access to the train - but 'cheapness' is winning there too.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

It's infuriating when the City does this. We've know since at least 2010 that DND was planning a move to Nortel. The City should have at that point shelved the Moodie BRT extension and re-evaluate. How many tens of millions have we wasted on studies and construction of a BRT branch that will be converted a mere what, 2 years after opening?

When was the Moodie Extension approved? Don't forget the initial stage 2 plan was to not extend to Bayshore (only Baseline) so that may have played a factor as well.

As much as the city is spinning the Moodie extension as for DND, the real reason is to save money for the following reasons:

1. They need to build the track anyway to connect to the relocated western Maintenance and Storage Facility (it was originally to be south of Baseline Station),
2. Because of land costs, it is much cheaper to build a transfer facility large enough to handle all the buses from Kanata at Moodie than at Bayshore

They certainly didn't know about the first point when the extension was approved. Not sure about the second one, that may not have become clear until after the EA.

I am curious how much money was actually wasted on this. I suspect it was a lot less than many would think as much of the investment in both studies and construction can be reused to reduce costs of the LRT extension.

[OtrainUser]

Originally Posted by roger1818

This is the first I have heard of an extension of the Transitway to Kanata as part of stage 2. Can you provide a reference with more details? What would they do with the bus lanes on the 417?

Its on the stage 2 website so its not hard to find especially when they show it on the map

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by roger1818

As a long term plan, I like your idea. I don't think we can afford to do all of this by 2040 and given the cost, I don't think it should be this high, as we should grab some lower hanging fruit first. I would certainly start planning it though. My fear is it would consume all of our transit infrastructure investment for decades and should be balanced with other projects.

That's already happening in reverse: Ottawa's entire transit build-out plan for decades to come involves building suburban transit, not urban transit.

Our grandchildren will be elderly before there is higher-order transit in the truly urban communities of Ottawa, other than the office core and a handful of other locations on the periphery of the core.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Richard Eade

Because during the planning of the route there was STRONG push-back by the community to having a busway any closer. They wanted walking routes to a distant routing - nothing within their village.

The City does not force people to take facilities that would improve their lives. The same thing is happening out in the west end with Crystal Beach; they want the train as far away from them as they can get it. The difference there, of course, is that the City's 'cheapness' is winning, since the City doesn't want to extend the line and have to pay for any more underpasses or NCC land.

Of course there is the other side of the coin as well: The City should be building an LRT station for Jasmine; where people actually want access to the train - but 'cheapness' is winning there too.

These things are all flip sides of the same coin: transit-oriented classism.

Jim Watson's Ottawa will do everything it can to improve transit for suburban communities who want it, to keep transit away from affluent NIMBYists who don't, and to avoid improving transit service for underserved, lower-income, and less-connected inner-urban communities which are crying out for it.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by OtrainUser

Its on the stage 2 website so its not hard to find especially when they show it on the map

Well I can't find any reference to a Kanata BRT extension on the Stage 2 website. If it is so easy to find, please provide a link (also very easy to do).

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

These things are all flip sides of the same coin: transit-oriented classism.

Jim Watson's Ottawa will do everything it can to improve transit for suburban communities who want it, to keep transit away from affluent NIMBYists who don't, and to avoid improving transit service for underserved, lower-income, and less-connected inner-urban communities which are crying out for it.

We all know that rail rapid transit is not built to serve low-income people who actually use transit. It is a sad truth. Even if it were, the low-income people would quickly be displaced by gentrification.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

We all know that rail rapid transit is not built to serve low-income people who actually use transit. It is a sad truth. Even if it were, the low-income people would quickly be displaced by gentrification.

Nope, buses for the peons. Thanks, Jim!

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by roger1818

I disagree with you on this one. Eagleson, Kanata Lake, Teery Fox, for sure. I don't see how Tanger is a large enough draw to warrant LRT, and there is too much unknown about the future of the CTC to make it our top priority. Keep the ROW for sure, but wait until there is something worth going to.

As for a multi-level parking garage, that would be too expensive for this location. If they were to build one, I would put it at the Orleans P&R or Eagleson, before the CTC.

Tanger has the potential of being something of a downtown with retail, hotels ad possibly apartment or office buildings at some point. CTC will certainly see medium to high-density. I agree that we should take a look at what might be proposed for those areas before guarantying stations.

A multi-level park and ride at CTC could serve Carp, Stittville and the western part of Kanata while one at Eagleson can serve the eastern part. Place d'Orleans and Trim should also get one each. With lrt, we should no longer depend on vast surface p&r.

Sure. If it doesn't affect Ottawa, I wouldn't put it on the list, but Okay

Since Gatineau is the largest suburb in the metropolitan area, I feel it should have equal time.

As a long term plan, I like your idea. I don't think we can afford to do all of this by 2040 and given the cost, I don't think it should be this high, as we should grab some lower hanging fruit first. I would certainly start planning it though. My fear is it would consume all of our transit infrastructure investment for decades and should be balanced with other projects.

I admit it's ambitious and we might not have the capital.

The Woodroffe BRT route to Fallowfield Station opened in 2005, so it would be 40 years. I don't see the need to wait a specific number of years though. What was build, was done with the best information at the time and to serve a specific need. We should consider the future when making decisions, but if needs change, the plan should be free to change accordingly. Personally I think an extension to Fallowfield should be done before 2045.

I suggested the same for a few of the Transitways in both Ottawa and Gatineau. I feel like we should keep them until the life-cycle can be considered "worth-it". It's not like there will be capacity issues at any point with these existing BRTs.

I would let the dust settle from the Bank St. LRT as well as progress of LeBreton Flats. before making any decisions on this line.

Agreed.

Sounds ambitious for 2050 given all the other priorities.

Again, yes. Probably way too ambitious.

I can't even believe this is on your priority list. Cumberland is about the same distance from downtown as Stittsville but has about a fifth of the population. I don't think either should be on a 30 year plan. There are probably 5 other routes I would pick before Cumberland.

The Cumberland branch doesn't just serve Cumberland, but the south side of Orleans along Innes. A few of the power centres along the route could be easily redeveloped into high density mixed use by that time. It's also an easy branch off from Blair.

Serving Stittville is not as obvious. The line already splits once in the west end. We can't split it another 2-3 times (Trillium Line, Kanata North, Stittsville). And Stittsville has no potential of intensification. There's no room for any 4 lane boulevard through the area. That said, Hazeldean, similarly to Innes, might be able to handle lrt and intensification 50 years down the road.

Originally Posted by roger1818

When was the Moodie Extension approved? Don't forget the initial stage 2 plan was to not extend to Bayshore (only Baseline) so that may have played a factor as well.

As much as the city is spinning the Moodie extension as for DND, the real reason is to save money for the following reasons:

1. They need to build the track anyway to connect to the relocated western Maintenance and Storage Facility (it was originally to be south of Baseline Station),
2. Because of land costs, it is much cheaper to build a transfer facility large enough to handle all the buses from Kanata at Moodie than at Bayshore

They certainly didn't know about the first point when the extension was approved. Not sure about the second one, that may not have become clear until after the EA.

I am curious how much money was actually wasted on this. I suspect it was a lot less than many would think as much of the investment in both studies and construction can be reused to reduce costs of the LRT extension.

No matter if it was for the DND, railyards or transfers, this was foreseeable. Stage 2 to Bayshore was approved in 2013, before construction started on the Moodie BRT extension (late 2015).

https://ottawa.ca/en/city-hall/planning-...tructure-projects/transit/under-way/west