The Great Canadian Transit Thread

[J.OT13]

Question for the cities that have opened new rapid transit lines/extension over the past decade.

In Ottawa, we are trying to guess how much time it will take between the contractor handing over the Confederation Line and the start of revenue service.

How does it work in your cities? Did they just run empty trains for a few weeks? Was there a free trial period during off peak hours to test passenger interaction? Any community involvement in the process? How much time did each phase in take? How much time between the City taking control and revenue service?

[nname]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Question for the cities that have opened new rapid transit lines/extension over the past decade.

In Ottawa, we are trying to guess how much time it will take between the contractor handing over the Confederation Line and the start of revenue service.

How does it work in your cities? Did they just run empty trains for a few weeks? Was there a free trial period during off peak hours to test passenger interaction? Any community involvement in the process? How much time did each phase in take? How much time between the City taking control and revenue service?

For Vancouver:
Evergreen Line/Extension - Testing on various segments started about 16 months prior to opening, and testing of the full line with empty trains began about 3 month before opening. Opened on noon Friday with normal revenue service and regular closing time, no free trial.

Canada Line - Testing starts about 1 year before opening, free trial with limited operating hours Monday during daytime, and open for revenue service with regular start/closing time on the next day. The company who built the line still have control and operates the line.

[casper]

Originally Posted by nname

For Vancouver:
Evergreen Line/Extension - Testing on various segments started about 16 months prior to opening, and testing of the full line with empty trains began about 3 month before opening. Opened on noon Friday with normal revenue service and regular closing time, no free trial.

Canada Line - Testing starts about 1 year before opening, free trial with limited operating hours Monday during daytime, and open for revenue service with regular start/closing time on the next day. The company who built the line still have control and operates the line.

What is interesting with these timeline is:

- Evergreen is an extension on to the same system. Generally speaking the operations centre that runs the evergreen extension also manages Expo and Millenium lines. Same technology etc. It is Bombardier technology but turned over to the local transit authority to operate.

- Canada Line is a separate operated system with a separate control center, maintenance center. Different technology and operated under a Private-Public partnership. Basically it was built and is operated by SNC Lavalin + partners.

You would expect Canada Line to take longer since they have to hire and train new people and all the support infrastructure (rail yards, control centre, maintenance etc. is new). However it looks like that was not the case.

[1overcosc]

I don't think there's a good analogy to the Confederation Line in any other city in Canada from a project management perspective. I'm pretty sure Confederation Line and Vancouver's Canada Line are the only P3 rail lines in the country, and Canada Line is different because the P3 includes operation, whereas with Confederation it does not.

[SkahHigh]

Tell me if you’ve heard this before:

Quebec’s (new) Transportation Minister, André Fortier, wants to move as fast as possible on the Blue Line extension to Anjou and start the expropriation process before the next election in October 2018.

Reality or hoax?

[Laceoflight]

Originally Posted by SkahHigh

Reality or hoax?

Electoral move. But I would take it anyway.

[SkahHigh]

Originally Posted by Laceoflight

Electoral move. But I would take it anyway.

Yes and no. Fortin is from the Pontiac riding (not in Montreal) and his predecessors were letting the project rot on their desk. To hear that the Transportation Minister actually wants things to move quickly is refreshing for once.

He’s relatively young too (35) compared to the others. So maybe less of an automobile-oriented approach.

[GreaterMontréal]

Originally Posted by SkahHigh

Yes and no. Fortin is from the Pontiac riding (not in Montreal) and his predecessors were letting the project rot on their desk. To hear that the Transportation Minister actually wants things to move quickly is refreshing for once.

He’s relatively young too (35) compared to the others. So maybe less of an automobile-oriented approach.

Tout est prêt pour le début de la construction, la seule chose qui restait pour régler c'est l'approbation du Ministre des Transports. Couillard savait qu'avec lui on irait plus vite.

[J.OT13]

Confederation Line rolling stock.

Originally Posted by Hybrid247

A little peak at the new LRVs






https://twitter.com/TimTierney/status/926482796540862465

[Alegan]

Exciting - new mayor for Montreal! I hope we see some quick action on Mayor-elect Valérie Plante's metro line proposal!


http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/projet-montreal-pink-line-metro-1.4135881

from her platform:

3.4 Substantially increase the level of public transit
service in Montreal
a) Build a new diagonal metro line, that would go from the south-west towards
the north-east of Montreal, to reach the densely populated neighbourhoods of
Saint-Michel, Saint-Léonard, Montréal-Nord and Rivière-des-Prairies, as well as the
eastern parts of Plateau-Mont-Royal and Rosemont-La Petite-Patrie. This new line
would not only link currently underserved neighbourhoods, but would also diminish
the pressure on the orange line and reduce the number of transfers for users;
https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/pr...1506701286/program2017_EN.pdf?1506701286

[p_xavier]

This is the more recent plan of the line. It is proposed to be using the REM's techology for intercompatibility and there's more chances it will be REM phase 2 than a new metro line. In any cases, I believe more in this project to be done than Toronto's DRL...

[Alegan]

^^^Cool. I wonder why the potential extensions for the blue, orange and green lines (the dotted lines) are gone on the newer plan. Perhaps just a focus thing for this particular graphic.

Also - la ligne rose was shortened slightly to Montréal-Nord and not to Place Bourassa and Marie-Victorin anymore. I guess the expansion to Lachine makes up for it.

[Nouvellecosse]

That is a great project and one that I wanted for many years now. But I don't think it's more needed that the Toronto DRL though considering that Toronto has become a larger city yet the subway system has the same route length as the Montreal metro and it has severe capacity restraints in/out of downtown since you can enter/exist from the main part using only two routes rather than four in Montreal. There is far more overcrowding in parts of the Toronto Subway.

I'm not sure why they'd make it REM tech though. Why would it be more useful for it to be intercompatible with REM rather than with the original Metro?You can't really cite intercompatibility as a reason for choosing one over the other. Also, the REM system is supposed to be geared toward more suburban service, meaning trains that are more comfortable with more seating space and less standing space, fewer doors, a higher top speed, etc. while the metro is geared toward urban service with lower top speed but very high acceleration, lots of doors for the frequent stops, fewer and smaller seats etc. The only thing I can think of is that they want the new line to run partially on the surface.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

That is a great project and one that I wanted for many years now. But I don't think it's more needed that the Toronto DRL though considering that Toronto has become a larger city yet the subway system has the same route length as the Montreal metro and it has severe capacity restraints in/out of downtown since you can enter/exist from the main part using only two routes rather than four in Montreal. There is far more overcrowding in parts of the Toronto Subway.

.

I suppose you know this but broadly speaking it's not in any way a choice between more REM and métro in Montreal vs. the DRL in Toronto, as the decision-making and municipal and provincial public purses are totally separate except for any hypothetical federal funding portion.

At some point I guess the feds only have so much money, but my sense is still that if Toronto gets its act together for the DRL that the feds won't say no to them. They'd likely pitch in on the projects in both cities.

[Nouvellecosse]

Yes of course, I was just commenting on d_jeffrey saying "In any cases, I believe more in this project to be done than Toronto's DRL..." which I was too busy / lazy to directly quote lol

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

Yes of course, I was just commenting on d_jeffrey saying "In any cases, I believe more in this project to be done than Toronto's DRL..." which I was too busy / lazy to directly quote lol

It's pretty clear the DRL is more needed in Toronto (and the most sorely needed transit project in all of Canada, probably), but that's up to the people in Toronto to resolve themselves.

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

That is a great project and one that I wanted for many years now.

I'm not sure why they'd make it REM tech though. Why would it be more useful for it to be intercompatible with REM rather than with the original Metro?You can't really cite intercompatibility as a reason for choosing one over the other. Also, the REM system is supposed to be geared toward more suburban service, meaning trains that are more comfortable with more seating space and less standing space, fewer doors, a higher top speed, etc. while the metro is geared toward urban service with lower top speed but very high acceleration, lots of doors for the frequent stops, fewer and smaller seats etc. The only thing I can think of is that they want the new line to run partially on the surface.

There is a concensus among the public opinon and the media that the pink line is a great idea and would help the city. The federal government gave its support to it today. The Quebec Premier is not that hot at the idea. Plante said people voted for her for that line, so Quebec must participate in the projet.

To be clear, the REM is a metro, it has the same doors, speed and equipment as a metro. The reason why the pink line is more of a REM, is because it would be a steel-wheel based metro line with automatic trains and platform doors. That's what the REM is. The section West of downtown is also running outdoors. Plante says metro, REM, whichever is fine. It's the line that's important. She will present the project to CDPQi which is building the REM.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by d_jeffrey

There is a concensus among the public opinon and the media that the pink line is a great idea and would help the city. The federal government gave its support to it today. The Quebec Premier is not that hot at the idea. Plante said people voted for her for that line, so Quebec must participate in the projet.

To be clear, the REM is a metro, it has the same doors, speed and equipment as a metro. The reason why the pink line is more of a REM, is because it would be a steel-wheel based metro line with automatic trains and platform doors. That's what the REM is. The section West of downtown is also running outdoors. Plante says metro, REM, whichever is fine. It's the line that's important. She will present the project to CDPQi which is building the REM.

Has he said why?

[hipster duck]

I don't think that the Ontario Liberals are all that hot on the DRL, either.

My belief is that higher governments try to be as non-committal on inner city underground rail construction as possible because they know that these projects are on a scale where the costs will balloon and timelines pushed back beyond what is palatable for them. Conservatively, the line looks like it will take 10 years to build (let alone plan) and easily cost $6 billion, or more.

The section through downtown Montreal will probably be an eight-year-long construction nightmare, as I don't see how stations like Ville Marie can be constructed without either closing down arterial roads like Maisonneuve to build station boxes, or digging out gigantic underground caverns like they did on New York's 2nd Avenue subway at tremendous cost. Whoever puts the shovels in the ground won't be around to open the line, but they will be around as the construction gridlocks the city or when one of the many parts of the project is mired in cost overruns or scandal (this is not a knock on Montreal, this is inherent in almost all projects of this size and scope).

I'm not saying that these lines shouldn't be built. Far from it. But I can see why provincial governments show tepid interest in pursuing them.

[begratto]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Has he said why?

What he said was that he was going to discuss the project with Valerie Plante.