New Downtown Calgary Arena

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by suburbia

I think Broncoinnier's bigger achievements were around West LRT placement and the business support that resulted.

The proposal to the Flames for an arena in Victoria Park was excellent in my view. It was detailed in the Globe yesterday, much more affordable, and leverages the surrounding assets instead of recreating things that already exist:
https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/sports/...suing-new-calgary-arena/article36241562/

The value proposition for Victoria Park was what Nenshi's platform is strongly supporting, a broader integrated cultural and entertainment district. It builds on assets that do not exist in West Village, and the plans for the BMO Centre including conversion to a full-on convention centre is part of that. The restaurants and services that would result from adding to a critical mass that is emerging in that area would be beyond what West Village could offer. The City has been developing elements of this for a very long time, including location and architecture of the music centre and the underpass there, and the library and the moves to try and find how to connect between Olympic plaza and the Library. The Flames Owners' proposal discounts all of the billions already invested by the city and its partners in that area of the city, and instead flips it over to an area where they have additional land assets that would rocket in value, and a need for a much, much more expensive facility because West Village lacks all the assets already in place on the other side of downtown.

I'm blown away that there exist people who are so supportive of the billionaires that they are forgetting what all exists in East Village, Victoria Park and the Stampede Grounds, including plans for the BMO Centre, the NMC, the hotels already there and more being planned (including with the BMO), the Library, all the rest. Those individuals are not pro business, because that would actually hurt a lot of business. Ken King would have you throw all of East Village, Victoria Park and the Stampede (including the long term vision of that area) under the bus.



100%

Excellent post. More of this please and less inner city sniping.

[rotten42]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

Also, I like how you ignore good things Nenshi has done like bringing Rocket Space to Calgary and bidding for Amazon's Canadian HQ.

Let's be clear here. The RFP was sent out to multiple cities. Nenshi didn't bring that in. What a bunch of bullshit.

I hope he isn't going to throw tax breaks and free land to some billionaire owners here.

[patm]

Flames have a very real chance of moving.
They're a middle of the pack revenue team with a bad arena in a market that has a bleak economic outlook.

Nothing about their situation would be too good to give up if Seattle or some arena gave them a sweet heart deal. Look at Florida, they can't give away tickets for free yet they still turn a profit cause of their arena deal. Moving to a city like Seattle will also likely increase their franchise value as the market is 3-4 times the size of Calgary.

Yes there are teams that are worse off than Calgary that should be moved first but that doesn't matter if the NHL owners want to strong arm the Flames and the Flames ownership is frustrated and not committed to Calgary. Also before you say it, there is no chance another team would come here without an arena.

Personally I'm extremely torn. I'm a huge Flames fan and a season ticket holder. On the one hand I understand the economics of the situation and that subsidizing arenas for pro sports teams has historically been a terrible investment for municipalities and I agree with everyone that says it's BS that Calgary taxpayers should be funding an arena so that a private enterprise can charge us more money to go see the same middling product. I also think it's fucking horseshit that they drop this bomb right before the season starts in an attempt to steer the election at a charity event and I think it's a total bush league move from Gary Bettman, the owners and mainly Ken King who should be boo'd, tarred and feathered any time he is spotted in public for how he has totally shit the bed with this entire process. It's been going on for over a decade and all the city has received from that buffoon is a half baked proposal in powerpoint with renderings from Sim City and a funding plan in which the Flames would only cover a quarter of the cost of a billion dollar sports complex while being gifted one of the best plots of undeveloped land in the city. It's a fucking punch in the gut as a paying fan.

On the other hand I'm of the opinion that the Flames are one of the few things that breathes excitement into this city and probably the only thing that unifies it, if even for brief moments of time. From my own selfish point of view, I want the city to bend to the Flames and get a deal done, that's what would make me happiest, but I know that it's not the smart move economically. I also understand why the owners wouldn't want to make a massive real estate investment with this city having such a grim economic outlook when they're already so invested in the Oil industry in this province.

I just can't imagine how dreary it will be here with no major sports team to support while we watch every major Canadian market enjoy NHL hockey. As a sports fan and someone who is growing out of wanting to get shitfaced at beerhalls every weekend or gushing over fucking avocado toast at whatever local hipster bar in Kensignton is trendy at the moment, this will probably be the death blow for my long term views of this city as a home. It's just not worth it anymore. Yes the mountains are nice but there are a lot of cities with mountains that have more to offer than Calgary. I'm sick of worrying about real estate prices, I'm sick of worrying about whether my job is safe in this economy, I'm sick of hearing about how fucked Alberta is just as I'm growing up and setting roots and as crazy as it sounds to normal people without sports fandom, the Flames are always a good distraction from that. They're one of the few sources of civic pride in a city that is so divided over embarrassing political views and slowly dying industry.

I feel that if the Flames leave and if the economy doesn't rebound, the only thing that really separates Calgary from Saskatoon or Red Deer is the mountains. Count up all of the trendy restaurants and bars that you want but the reality is, Calgary is far from a foodie or bar mecca and you can find the latest food and bar trends in any small city too. We don't get many really large festivals outside of the Stampede and the entertainment options here are almost non existent.

This just blows. Really. It's just such a shitty situation that was thrusted upon Calgarians through no fault of our own. The team isn't struggling. It's well supported and I think most people are happier with them here than without them. It'll be a sad day if they leave.

[Calgarian]

Originally Posted by rotten42

Let's be clear here. The RFP was sent out to multiple cities. Nenshi didn't bring that in. What a bunch of bullshit.

I hope he isn't going to throw tax breaks and free land to some billionaire owners here.

Lets be clear here. It was Nenshi (and Calgary Economic Development CEO Mary Moran) visiting and meeting personally with Rocket Space that helped them make the decision.

[Calgarian]

Originally Posted by patm

Flames have a very real chance of moving.
They're a middle of the pack revenue team with a bad arena in a market that has a bleak economic outlook.

Nothing about their situation would be too good to give up if Seattle or some arena gave them a sweet heart deal. Look at Florida, they can't give away tickets for free yet they still turn a profit cause of their arena deal. Moving to a city like Seattle will also likely increase their franchise value as the market is 3-4 times the size of Calgary.

Yes there are teams that are worse off than Calgary that should be moved first but that doesn't matter if the NHL owners want to strong arm the Flames and the Flames ownership is frustrated and not committed to Calgary. Also before you say it, there is no chance another team would come here without an arena.

Personally I'm extremely torn. I'm a huge Flames fan and a season ticket holder. On the one hand I understand the economics of the situation and that subsidizing arenas for pro sports teams has historically been a terrible investment for municipalities and I agree with everyone that says it's BS that Calgary taxpayers should be funding an arena so that a private enterprise can charge us more money to go see the same middling product. I also think it's fucking horseshit that they drop this bomb right before the season starts in an attempt to steer the election at a charity event and I think it's a total bush league move from Gary Bettman, the owners and mainly Ken King who should be boo'd, tarred and feathered any time he is spotted in public for how he has totally shit the bed with this entire process. It's been going on for over a decade and all the city has received from that buffoon is a half baked proposal in powerpoint with renderings from Sim City and a funding plan in which the Flames would only cover a quarter of the cost of a billion dollar sports complex while being gifted one of the best plots of undeveloped land in the city. It's a fucking punch in the gut as a paying fan.

On the other hand I'm of the opinion that the Flames are one of the few things that breathes excitement into this city and probably the only thing that unifies it, if even for brief moments of time. From my own selfish point of view, I want the city to bend to the Flames and get a deal done, that's what would make me happiest, but I know that it's not the smart move economically. I also understand why the owners wouldn't want to make a massive real estate investment with this city having such a grim economic outlook when they're already so invested in the Oil industry in the is province.

I just can't imagine how dreary it will be here with no major sports team to support while we watch every major Canadian market enjoy NHL hockey. As a sports fan and someone who is growing out of wanting to get shitfaced at beerhalls every weekend or gushing over fucking avocado toast at whatever local hipster bar in Kensignton is trendy at the moment, this will probably be the death blow for my long term views of this city as a home. It's just not worth it anymore. Yes the mountains are nice but there are a lot of cities with mountains that have more to offer than Calgary. I'm sick of worrying about real estate prices, I'm sick of worrying about whether my job is safe in this economy, I'm sick of hearing about how fucked Alberta is just as I'm growing up and setting roots and as crazy as it sounds to normal people without sports fandom, the Flames are always a good distraction from that. They're one of the few sources of civic pride in a city that is so divided over embarrassing political views and slowly dying industry.

I feel that if the Flames leave and if the economy doesn't rebound, the only thing that really separates Calgary from Saskatoon or Red Deer is the mountains. Count up all of the trendy restaurants and bars that you want but the reality is, Calgary is far from a foodie or bar mecca and you can find the latest food and bar trends in any small city too. We don't get many really large festivals outside of the Stampede and the entertainment options here are almost non existent.

This just blows. Really. It's just such a shitty situation that was thrusted upon Calgarians through no fault of our own. The team isn't struggling. It's well supported and I think most people are happier with them here than without them. It'll be a sad day if they leave.

The relocation fee is $200 million dollars, and they would still need a new arena to play in. The Flames are not going anywhere!

[suburbia]

Originally Posted by patm

Flames have a very real chance of moving.
They're a middle of the pack revenue team with a bad arena in a market that has a bleak economic outlook.

Sorry to be blunt about it, but you have no clue. The league makes billions from Rogers resulting from the Canadian teams and their current locations. They will not move to Seattle, and nor will they move to the village of Quebec City.

Calgary Sports and Entertainment makes massive amounts leveraging agreements connected to the Flames to pull in money from numerous other ventures, including concerts and the like, which all have been a massive money cow for them (concerts currently in the dome make more than the Flames in a first round playoff year). The corp often presents a carved out mediocre sounding fiance sheet, which is actually no where near complete. It is a "liquor in the front, poker in the back" scenario, so to speak. That is why the business entity is called Calgary Sports and Entertainment.

Originally Posted by Calgarian

The relocation fee is $200 million dollars, and they would still need a new arena to play in. The Flames are not going anywhere!

And that too.

[patm]

Originally Posted by suburbia

Sorry to be blunt about it, but you have no clue. The league makes billions from Rogers resulting from the Canadian teams and their current locations. They will not move to Seattle, and nor will they move to the village of Quebec City.

Calgary Sports and Entertainment makes massive amounts leveraging agreements connected to the Flames to pull in money from numerous other ventures, including concerts and the like, which all have been a massive money cow for them (concerts currently in the dome make more than the Flames in a first round playoff year). The corp often presents a carved out mediocre sounding fiance sheet, which is actually no where near complete. It is a "liquor in the front, poker in the back" scenario, so to speak. That is why the business entity is called Calgary Sports and Entertainment

And that too.

You have literally no idea what their books are like, what offers are on the table, what Rogers thinks about it or what the NHL owners want long term for the league.

You're putting your hand over your ears and singing "la la la" because you have an unshakable belief that Calgary could never lose their team but the reality is that there are probably numerous scenarios that the Flames and the NHL are exploring and I'm sure that a lot of them include the team moving from Calgary. My post is addressing my thoughts if one of those scenarios plays out.

[Northern]

I agree. If the current polls are any indication, he probably won't get voted in again, and negotiations can start over again, but this time on the right foot.

This whole thing of Nenshi supporting the new vision for Victoria Park is only an attempt at picking up some votes.

Originally Posted by rotten42

...and Nenshi can shove it up his ass. From day one he has had a horrible record in dealing with business in Calgary. Always an adversary approach. Always arrogant. I have no problem with his stance on how public funds should be for public good but he simply has no clue how to work with business leaders in this city....and that is why nothing ever gets done.

[Northern]

Yeah right. That's the way it might have played out in the press but the reality is Nenshi would have had little or nothing to do with their decision.

Originally Posted by O-tacular

Also, I like how you ignore good things Nenshi has done like bringing Rocket Space to Calgary and bidding for Amazon's Canadian HQ.

[rotten42]

Originally Posted by Northern

Yeah right. That's the way it might have played out in the press but the reality is Nenshi would have had little or nothing to do with their decision.

exactly!

[patm]

Hilarious how stand off-ish everyone is over this especially about the financial details since no one has a clue what the situation actually is... anyways...

http://www.metronews.ca/news/calgary/201...x-exemption-revenue-sharing-sources.html

"Where talks broke down, according to sources, was in how the city might recoup its initial investment, either through property taxes or a revenue sharing model. It was hoped the city could get back its initial investment over the next 30 years through a lease or rental arrangement with the Flames.

Information provided to Metro indicated those were the areas the two sides couldn’t agree upon.

CSEC was apparently looking for property tax exemption and wouldn’t flex on models for the city to recoup its investment, including possible revenue sharing options."

Shawn Logan‏Verified account @ShawnLogan403
Mayor @nenshi expressed puzzlement over Flames ditching arena quest. Says he'll release deets of both sides' proposals in days ahead #yyccc

Shawn Logan‏Verified account @ShawnLogan403
As far as @nenshi was concerned, he feels negotiations hadn't reached an impasse and were still ongoing.

Shawn Logan‏Verified account @ShawnLogan403
Arena price tag proposed to be about $550 million. Cost break down loosely split a third apiece for city/owners/ticket surcharge #yyccc

Wow, so basically hard stop for the Flames is the city wanting to eventually earn their investment back? Doesn't sound like they're that far away from a deal though. Makes this even more annoying but at least it sounds like it should get done.

Flames ownership are acting like fucking children through all of this.

[McBoo]

Originally Posted by patm

Flames have a very real chance of moving.
They're a middle of the pack revenue team with a bad arena in a market that has a bleak economic outlook.

Flames aren't going anywhere. The NHL just received $500 million from Las Vegas for an expansion team. You think the other owners will let the Flames move to Seattle for any less in a re-location fee?

And if the Flames do go anywhere (and there's damn few places left that can afford the NHL), say hello to Calgary Coyotes or Calgary Panthers (okay, may have to change the nickname).

Full disclosure, I'm from Edmonton, so take what I say with a grain of salt.

Things that made the deal work here, that may not be in play there:

1) The new Ice District used to be acres and acres of dreary, low tax yielding surface parking lots.
2) CRL (Community Revitalization Levy), where the city gets any increased both land and education tax for 30 years.
3) Four and counting new towers going up in addition to the arena already contributing enough tax revenue to pay the city's share and more.
4) Katz eventually ponied up, I think $90 million, in installments yes.
5) Ticket surcharge
6) Option was spend $250 million to put lipstick on the Coliseum pig by actually lowering capacity - no one was buying that.

Katz did play the Seattle card, which got him a public flaying for which he ended up paying for a very humiliating public apology.

Any way it goes, Calgary's a legit NHL market, pro hockey won't be n/a in Calgary for more than a nanosecond.

[SteveP]

Originally Posted by Northern

Yeah right. That's the way it might have played out in the press but the reality is Nenshi would have had little or nothing to do with their decision.

Yeah, you can't help but chuckle every time time Nenshi tries to make himself look like a hero. I like some of the things that's he's done, but he's a media whore, and lives for the photo op. i laugh at these people who think Nenshi has a chance at landing Amazon, first off Nenshi would have had nothing to do with it, though I'm sure the media will make it look like he did. Secondly..it ain't gonna happen.

[suburbia]

Originally Posted by patm

You have literally no idea what their books are like, what offers are on the table, what Rogers thinks about it or what the NHL owners want long term for the league.

I absolutely do.

[DoubleK]

Originally Posted by suburbia

Calgary Sports and Entertainment makes massive amounts leveraging agreements connected to the Flames to pull in money from numerous other ventures, including concerts and the like, which all have been a massive money cow for them (concerts currently in the dome make more than the Flames in a first round playoff year). The corp often presents a carved out mediocre sounding fiance sheet, which is actually no where near complete. It is a "liquor in the front, poker in the back" scenario, so to speak. That is why the business entity is called Calgary Sports and Entertainment.

If that's true then IMO, CSEC should be paying full freight for the new facility.

If they can get a building with them paying 50%, 25% Public money, 25% ticket surcharge (which essentially is a user fee), more power to them.

[suburbia]

Mayor Nenshi speaks to journalists about arena / Flames choosing to move away from the table

• Video Link

[SteveP]

Originally Posted by doublek

if that's true then imo, csec should be paying full freight for the new facility.

If they can get a building with them paying 50%, 25% public money, 25% ticket surcharge (which essentially is a user fee), more power to them.

x2

[McBoo]

Originally Posted by Calgarian

The relocation fee is $200 million dollars, and they would still need a new arena to play in. The Flames are not going anywhere!

Agreed not going anywhere, but with the expansion fee bar now set at $1/2 billion, doubt that'll be enough, especially if Seattle is the target, which the NHL sees as the next logical place for an expansion team.

[GreenSPACE]

This is just the first part of negotiating. It'll be back on the table in some form or another in the near future.

[Calgarian]

This will get done and likely in the form the city wants. Apparently the sticking point is if the city recovers their investment or not. The word is that the cost will be $550 million split evenly 3 ways between CSEC, The City and a ticket tax, the city just wants some sort of return on their investment and CSEC wants all the revenue which would prevent that. This is totally just a tactic by CSEC (despite their assuraces today that it isn't) to influence the election to try and get people emotional about this and to elect a city council that will be more favourable to CSEC's terms.