New Downtown Calgary Arena

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

The problem is, if you want to cross the tracks I think you need a +45.

The intercity bus station wants to move more central ... empty hard to activate internal ground floor space would be good for that ... or an inner city Costco!

[suburbia]

Originally Posted by technomad

Well there's still room nearby for new hotel builds, maybe the Marriot west of guardian will come back to life? I'm just thinking that any really large conference is going exhaust the nearby hotels, and that the fairmont/mariot/hyatt cluster with the telus conference center would make a decent satellite facility.

linking it with +15 lets the marketing folks boost the venue's indoor square footage number, and after sitting through sessions for a couple of hours, that 10 minute walk between sites might just be what some people are looking for.

The current convention centre could then be used for an expanded Glenbow, which is overly constrained currently. As a museum, it could still leverage some of the spaces for receptions / events.

[craner]

Originally Posted by Hallsy's Toupee

https://twitter.com/EricFrancis/status/907737049452572672

Originally Posted by Hallsy's Toupee

Full story:

Ken King says Flames will not pursue new arena in Calgary
Mayor Naheed Nenshi expected to react at city hall later on Tuesday evening
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/new-arena-negotiations-end-ken-king-nenshi-1.4286660

Reposted from the Edmonton thread - thanks Hallsy's Toupee.

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by craner

Reposted from the Edmonton thread - thanks Hallsy's Toupee.

There was also this today which very well could be related.

"Will Mayor Ed Murray’s resignation affect the Seattle arena process?"

http://www.seattletimes.com/sports/nba/w...nation-affect-the-seattle-arena-process/

And from this morning: "Oak View Group plans to renovate KeyArena by October 2020, spend $40 million on transportation"

http://www.seattletimes.com/sports/nba/o...spend-40-million-on-transportation-fund/

It sounds like the Flames have decided it's not worth dealing with Nenshi and the administration anymore because they're getting jerked around. This is going to end being a major election issue. If nothing changes after the election I can see the Flames leaving within three or four years. Sooner if the administration's attitude doesn't drastically improve. Quebec City would welcome them with open arms and the Quebec government would probably provide a ton of incentives. If it happens the NHL will never come back to Calgary.

The biggest loser is going to be the Stampeders. Worst stadium by far despite all the team has done for this city. If Halifax or another city in the Maritimes ever builds a decent stadium I could see the Stamps leaving Calgary.

[You Need A Thneed]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

There was also this today which very well could be related.

"Will Mayor Ed Murray’s resignation affect the Seattle arena process?"

http://www.seattletimes.com/sports/nba/w...nation-affect-the-seattle-arena-process/

And from this morning: "Oak View Group plans to renovate KeyArena by October 2020, spend $40 million on transportation"

http://www.seattletimes.com/sports/nba/o...spend-40-million-on-transportation-fund/

It sounds like the Flames have decided it's not worth dealing with Nenshi and the administration anymore because they're getting jerked around. This is going to end being a major election issue. If nothing changes after the election I can see the Flames leaving within three or four years. Sooner if the administration's attitude doesn't drastically improve. Quebec City would welcome them with open arms and the Quebec government would probably provide a ton of incentives. If it happens the NHL will never come back to Calgary.

The biggest loser is going to be the Stampeders. Worst stadium by far despite all the team has done for this city. If Halifax or another city in the Maritimes ever builds a decent stadium I could see the Stamps leaving Calgary.

A couple questions for you:

1. How exactly has the city been jerking around the Flames? If anything, the City has gone above and beyond what would be reasonably expected.

2. How would the NHL owners possibly let the Flames move? Literally anywhere the Flames move takes revenue away from the league as a whole.

3. List ways the city's attitude has been poor. The mayor literally was excited to announce a plan for an area that included a new arena - just yesterday! Administration has been working on things to get the arena started, such as a land swap with the Stampede.

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by You Need A Thneed

A couple questions for you:

1. How exactly has the city been jerking around the Flames? If anything, the City has gone above and beyond what would be reasonably expected.

2. How would the NHL owners possibly let the Flames move? Literally anywhere the Flames move takes revenue away from the league as a whole.

3. List ways the city's attitude has been poor. The mayor literally was excited to announce a plan for an area that included a new arena - just yesterday! Administration has been working on things to get the arena started, such as a land swap with the Stampede.

Look into the details of what the city and Nenshi have been saying. Their commitment to a new arena has been anything but solid. He said yesterday that a new arena would be nice for his new cultural district vision but not necessary. One day he says a new arena etc. will lead to revitalization and development and the next that a new arena won't claiming that the Saddledome has resulted in no surrounding development. Considering where it's located that's to be expected. But look at Edmonton's new arena--tons of development going on. Don't respond with they had very little and Calgary doesn't need development downtown. The point is that the arena in Edmonton is what is spurring the billions of dollars in new development.

If the Flames move how does that take revenue away from the league? Would the revenue not be replaced? I would think that the revenue to the league would go up or else why would the Flames move?

I'm not a Flames fan but I've seen no evidence that the city has been trying to help them. At some point we'll find out the truth and I won't be one bit surprised if we find out that the city has been jerking the Flames around for years.

[YYCguys]

Isn't it odd that just on Monday Nenshi presented his vision for the cultural and entertainment hub and then, one day later, King was adamant that a deal couldn't be made? What happened in that 24 hours? Did the City think that negotiations were still going to continue and King's announcement was just a reaction to that? I just don't understand where the disconnect occurred!

[rotten42]

Originally Posted by YYCguys

Isn't it odd that just on Monday Nenshi presented his vision for the cultural and entertainment hub and then, one day later, King was adamant that a deal couldn't be made? What happened in that 24 hours? Did the City think that negotiations were still going to continue and King's announcement was just a reaction to that? I just don't understand where the disconnect occurred!

Nenshi's vision? That a laugh. That entertainment hub idea has been around since Bronconnier.

[outoftheice]

Some insight into the deal that the Flames walked away from when it comes to the arena. I would be curious to learn about the exact terms for the repayment schedule that was proposed but if it was over the life of the new arena I don't think it's that bad of a deal... especially if the city was willing to throw in the land that the new arena would sit on.

Flames no longer interested in pursuing new Calgary arena
By: Allan Maki and Carrie Tait

...Ken King, president of the Calgary Sports and Entertainment Corp., which owns the Flames, Stampeders and other sports properties, said ongoing discussions with the city and Mayor Naheed Nenshi regarding a new arena have gotten them nowhere and that the city is not interested in helping build a facility to replace the Scotiabank Saddledome...

...Calgary offered to pay for one-third of the arena, in equal instalments over a number of years, according to a source. The money would have to be paid back. The ownership group, according to this proposal, would cover another third of the total cost and surcharge on tickets would pay for the remaining third, the source said.

The Flames organization rejected the offer, the source said...

https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/sports/...obeandmail.com&cmpid=rss1&click=sf_globe

[O-tacular]

Ken King and Gary Bettman can shove it up their ass! I wasn't going to vote but now I'm sure as hell gonna vote for Nenshi. Ken King has become Murray Edwards' and the other Trumpian owners' Sean Spicer. Making ridiculous statements at their behest even in light of the overwhelming fact that regular Calgarians limping out of the worst recession in 30 years have no desire to fund their pet project.

[rotten42]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

Ken King and Gary Bettman can shove it up their ass! I wasn't going to vote but now I'm sure as hell gonna vote for Nenshi. Ken King has become Murray Edwards' and the other Trumpian owners' Sean Spicer. Making ridiculous statements at their behest even in light of the overwhelming fact that regular Calgarians limping out of the worst recession in 30 years have no desire to fund their pet project.

...and Nenshi can shove it up his ass. From day one he has had a horrible record in dealing with business in Calgary. Always an adversary approach. Always arrogant. I have no problem with his stance on how public funds should be for public good but he simply has no clue how to work with business leaders in this city....and that is why nothing ever gets done.

[YYCguys]

Originally Posted by rotten42

Nenshi's vision? That a laugh. That entertainment hub idea has been around since Bronconnier.

Oh I was unaware of that. I wasn't around when he was in charge.

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

There was also this today which very well could be related.

"Will Mayor Ed Murray’s resignation affect the Seattle arena process?"

http://www.seattletimes.com/sports/nba/w...nation-affect-the-seattle-arena-process/

And from this morning: "Oak View Group plans to renovate KeyArena by October 2020, spend $40 million on transportation"

http://www.seattletimes.com/sports/nba/o...spend-40-million-on-transportation-fund/

It sounds like the Flames have decided it's not worth dealing with Nenshi and the administration anymore because they're getting jerked around. This is going to end being a major election issue. If nothing changes after the election I can see the Flames leaving within three or four years. Sooner if the administration's attitude doesn't drastically improve. Quebec City would welcome them with open arms and the Quebec government would probably provide a ton of incentives. If it happens the NHL will never come back to Calgary.

The biggest loser is going to be the Stampeders. Worst stadium by far despite all the team has done for this city. If Halifax or another city in the Maritimes ever builds a decent stadium I could see the Stamps leaving Calgary.

This was Quebec city's mayor's reaction when Brian Burke floated the idea of moving there:

In June, Brian Burke, Calgary Flames president of operations, suggested the team could move to another city if a new arena wasn't built, and floated Quebec City as an option. Quebec City Mayor Regis Labeaume said he thought the Flames weren't being serious.

"It's a negotiating strategy. We're used to it. Everyone is calm, the Flames will not come to Quebec," said Labeaume.

http://www.calgarysun.com/2017/09/12/fla...e-no-longer-pursuing-an-arena-in-calgary

The Flames are blowing smoke and throwing a tantrum. No different than Donald Trump on NAFTA.

[Calgarian]

Originally Posted by YYCguys

Isn't it odd that just on Monday Nenshi presented his vision for the cultural and entertainment hub and then, one day later, King was adamant that a deal couldn't be made? What happened in that 24 hours? Did the City think that negotiations were still going to continue and King's announcement was just a reaction to that? I just don't understand where the disconnect occurred!

The Flames were obviously responding to Nenshi. They are hoping for a Mayor and Council that will give them what they want. The Flames want a new arena that is paid for mostly with public money, and they want the revenue while the city gets to hold onto a depreciating asset. I think the Mayor and Council have done a great job of standing up for the taxpayers in Calgary, and once the election is done and the dust settles, both side will get back to the table and hammer out a deal.

[Calgarian]

Originally Posted by rotten42

...and Nenshi can shove it up his ass. From day one he has had a horrible record in dealing with business in Calgary. Always an adversary approach. Always arrogant. I have no problem with his stance on how public funds should be for public good but he simply has no clue how to work with business leaders in this city....and that is why nothing ever gets done.

I like Nenshi and will likely vote for him, but I agree with this for the most part. On the other hand, business leaders in this City are so used to getting their way, they don't know how to handle someone as stubborn as them. Just look at how developers were freaking out when he first got elected. Last I checked, they were still in business and making large profits.

[The Urbanist]

Originally Posted by Calgarian

The Flames were obviously responding to Nenshi. They are hoping for a Mayor and Council that will give them what they want. The Flames want a new arena that is paid for mostly with public money, and they want the revenue while the city gets to hold onto a depreciating asset. I think the Mayor and Council have done a great job of standing up for the taxpayers in Calgary, and once the election is done and the dust settles, both side will get back to the table and hammer out a deal.

Nailed it. Thank you

[suburbia]

Originally Posted by YYCguys

Oh I was unaware of that. I wasn't around when he was in charge.

I think Broncoinnier's bigger achievements were around West LRT placement and the business support that resulted.

The proposal to the Flames for an arena in Victoria Park was excellent in my view. It was detailed in the Globe yesterday, much more affordable, and leverages the surrounding assets instead of recreating things that already exist:
https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/sports/...suing-new-calgary-arena/article36241562/

The value proposition for Victoria Park was what Nenshi's platform is strongly supporting, a broader integrated cultural and entertainment district. It builds on assets that do not exist in West Village, and the plans for the BMO Centre including conversion to a full-on convention centre is part of that. The restaurants and services that would result from adding to a critical mass that is emerging in that area would be beyond what West Village could offer. The City has been developing elements of this for a very long time, including location and architecture of the music centre and the underpass there, and the library and the moves to try and find how to connect between Olympic plaza and the Library. The Flames Owners' proposal discounts all of the billions already invested by the city and its partners in that area of the city, and instead flips it over to an area where they have additional land assets that would rocket in value, and a need for a much, much more expensive facility because West Village lacks all the assets already in place on the other side of downtown.

I'm blown away that there exist people who are so supportive of the billionaires that they are forgetting what all exists in East Village, Victoria Park and the Stampede Grounds, including plans for the BMO Centre, the NMC, the hotels already there and more being planned (including with the BMO), the Library, all the rest. Those individuals are not pro business, because that would actually hurt a lot of business. Ken King would have you throw all of East Village, Victoria Park and the Stampede (including the long term vision of that area) under the bus.

Originally Posted by Calgarian

The Flames were obviously responding to Nenshi. They are hoping for a Mayor and Council that will give them what they want. The Flames want a new arena that is paid for mostly with public money, and they want the revenue while the city gets to hold onto a depreciating asset. I think the Mayor and Council have done a great job of standing up for the taxpayers in Calgary, and once the election is done and the dust settles, both side will get back to the table and hammer out a deal.

100%

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by outoftheice

Some insight into the deal that the Flames walked away from when it comes to the arena. I would be curious to learn about the exact terms for the repayment schedule that was proposed but if it was over the life of the new arena I don't think it's that bad of a deal... especially if the city was willing to throw in the land that the new arena would sit on.



https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/sports/...obeandmail.com&cmpid=rss1&click=sf_globe

I also enjoyed this tidbit:

That sent the two sides back to the bargaining table where sources say negotiations slowed to a crawl. That angered the Flames to the point where they let it be known that the current ownership might be keen to sell – not with the intent of relocating the franchise but to add new ownership, new blood.

One source described the mood of the current owners as "frustrated" and open to selling their interest in the team.

Good! Let Murray Edwards sell his share. Then maybe we'll get a less entitled group of oil company executives who feel the city owes them a new arena for their mere existence as a sports franchise here.

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by rotten42

...and Nenshi can shove it up his ass. From day one he has had a horrible record in dealing with business in Calgary. Always an adversary approach. Always arrogant. I have no problem with his stance on how public funds should be for public good but he simply has no clue how to work with business leaders in this city....and that is why nothing ever gets done.

Did you read the city's offer? What about it said the city wasn't willing to negotiate? The Flames owners walked away from the city donating land and paying for a third of their arena right after Nenshi publicly announced a new Victoria Park Entertainment District with the new arena anchoring it. What was unfair about that? If anything Murray Edwards and the other owners seem to think the only good deal is for the city to take on the majority of the debt and get bent over the barrel by the Flames. And Ken King and Gary Bettman trying to make this an election issue is so dirty and underhanded.

Also, I like how you ignore good things Nenshi has done like bringing Rocket Space to Calgary and bidding for Amazon's Canadian HQ.

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by Calgarian

I like Nenshi and will likely vote for him, but I agree with this for the most part. On the other hand, business leaders in this City are so used to getting their way, they don't know how to handle someone as stubborn as them. Just look at how developers were freaking out when he first got elected. Last I checked, they were still in business and making large profits.

Well said.