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  #341  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2017, 9:58 AM
denizen467 denizen467 is offline
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Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
... Amazon is a global company and many global companies are run out of Toronto. Pearson airport has more global connections than any other airport in north America except JFK. Millions of business trips between Canada and the world (US included) are made every year. Many regular fliers apply for special passports that fast track them through customs. ...
Pearson Airport is #2 in North America in international traffic maybe because of .. tons of flights to the US? You'd have to exclude all that US traffic if you sought an apples-apples comparison. Naturally, your statistic also excludes EWR, for example. The list of air destinations is a little underwhelming.

The friction in crossing borders is not solved with just magic visas or fast track for workers. It's about their family members making periodic visits -- many will remain in the US as elderly or as children attending school. It's for vendors and clients coming for meetings, often impromptu. It's about students coming to tour or interview. It's about journalists, or people attending conferences and seminars. And often these visits occur with urgency; imagine a family emergency, and you can't get grandma into Canada to cover for dad while he tends to mom in the hospital, etc. Families making relocation decisions worry about things like that. Or about ordinary baggage items causing a customs snag. Of course there are lots of border crossings already made every day at Windsor, Niagara, etc., but the majority are people accustomed to or prepared for the drill; many of the examples I just gave involve one-offs because of the nature of a company like Amazon. Then imagine a terrorist incident occurs, and suddenly the US borders get sealed for a couple days. You'll recall the US does have fluctuating paranoia about borders lately. Finally, fumbling with two currencies is not a minor matter, even in the electronic payments age.

Now let's complicate it further. I recently learned that Canada refuses entry to anybody who has had a DUI in the past 10 years (or, ever?), even if arriving by air and not driving. Canada should do whatever it sees fit, but to most people that's a totally random rule; there would be plenty of people needing to go for a meeting -- or visiting a family member -- who suddenly have to tell their bosses they can't go because an Uber never showed up seven years ago one night after having a second glass of wine. There are lots of avid skiers who simply have never made it to Whistler for this reason. It is also easy to see further "suspicious crimes" being added to the list; what about convictions for arson when participating in a mass protest against a pipeline or statue, etc.? Again, control borders as you please, but don't think it'll be easy on a giant multinational corporation with frequently relocating families and its main HQ in the US.

Quote:
Access to US politics, culture? Canada has a window seat to what happens next door. We get minute by minute updates all year long (just like Americans). Canadian and US culture are one in the same and it's been that way since the New World was all just 'America' back in the 1600s. Canadians get every single media outlet Americans get + we get Canadian, British, and French on top of that. If anything, Canada is a bonus to a global corporation because the outlook is more international in scope. ... Lastly, you think the only thing on tv in Canada is hockey and parliamentary channels? We've been living in a 500 channel universe for 30 years. 20% of the shows you watch are made here, for heaven's sake.
Well it's not about whether those things are available; it's about what kind of mindshare they occupy. It is human nature to localize yourself and assimilate into the culture around you, so people will be attuned to different sensibilities, unless they really try to focus on US issues. I have no idea if that will be mostly irrelevant to whatever this HQ's activities will be (it could be a back office), but at fifty thousand people I doubt they can ignore all the various facets of their home market.

I very much agree with you however if this HQ's goal is to be more sensitized to things happening overseas; the US mindset is extremely inward looking and provincially minded, no matter what city you pick, so Toronto would be great as an office overseeing operations in other countries.


Back to the differences in the countries' legal systems that could literally land unsuspecting employees in jail or with big penalties: It seems that Canada doesn't have robust protections on freedom of speech. I understand there is a new law punishing the incorrect usage of a gender pronoun. Punishing speech is a slippery slope; it's very easy to see bans five or ten or twenty years down the road against microagressions against religious, or ethnic minorities, etc. Freedom of speech and thought are the bedrock of the bedrock in the US (social pressure is preferred instead of laws), so this trend is unthinkably regressive. Speaking of language by the way, would every official piece of paper, and every sign, in the HQ2 be required by law to be written in French and English? I hope Amazon has some big operations in Canada, but for an HQ2 caliber office I see many headaches.
     
     
  #342  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2017, 11:26 AM
Northern Light Northern Light is offline
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Originally Posted by denizen467 View Post
Pearson Airport is #2 in North America in international traffic maybe because of .. tons of flights to the US? You'd have to exclude all that US traffic if you sought an apples-apples comparison. Naturally, your statistic also excludes EWR, for example. The list of air destinations is a little underwhelming.
Connections to Seattle and major US centres would be the single most important criteria, followed by connections to major global capitals.

Toronto has these in spades.

Quote:
The friction in crossing borders is not solved with just magic visas or fast track for workers.
Really, have you traveled much? Cross-border travel is overwhelmingly easy in Canada.

Any recruited talent, or frequent visitor would have a passport; any medium or longer term relocatee would bring their family. You know we have pro sports teams here; their kids and spouses come with in most cases.

If you did leave your immediate family at home, you would surely get them passports.

You can get one in emergency situations issued extremely quickly.

Quote:
Back to the differences in the countries' legal systems that could literally land unsuspecting employees in jail or with big penalties: It seems that Canada doesn't have robust protections on freedom of speech. I understand there is a new law punishing the incorrect usage of a gender pronoun)

I have no clue where you get your info.

We do have laws against 'hate speech'; but they are used in only the rarest of cases.

Jail is beyond rare.

And no, gender pronoun misuse is not covered by our hate speech laws.

For a discussion of that nonsense, see this article.

https://www.vice.com/en_ca/article/qbnamx/no-the-trans-rights-bill-doesnt-criminalize-free-speech


Quote:
Speaking of language by the way, would every official piece of paper, and every sign, in the HQ2 be required by law to be written in French and English? I hope Amazon has some big operations in Canada, but for an HQ2 caliber office I see many headaches.
Uhh, no

Wow

If they located in Quebec, then language laws are more robust to protect French.

But in Toronto, no businesses don't have to produce any of their day to day paperwork or signage in 2 languages.

Toronto functions day to day in English.

Though one can get by here w/more than 2 dozen other languages as many are spoken here.
     
     
  #343  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2017, 11:59 AM
montréaliste montréaliste is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by denizen467 View Post
Pearson Airport is #2 in North America in international traffic maybe because of .. tons of flights to the US? You'd have to exclude all that US traffic if you sought an apples-apples comparison. Naturally, your statistic also excludes EWR, for example. The list of air destinations is a little underwhelming.

The friction in crossing borders is not solved with just magic visas or fast track for workers. It's about their family members making periodic visits -- many will remain in the US as elderly or as children attending school. It's for vendors and clients coming for meetings, often impromptu. It's about students coming to tour or interview. It's about journalists, or people attending conferences and seminars. And often these visits occur with urgency; imagine a family emergency, and you can't get grandma into Canada to cover for dad while he tends to mom in the hospital, etc. Families making relocation decisions worry about things like that. Or about ordinary baggage items causing a customs snag. Of course there are lots of border crossings already made every day at Windsor, Niagara, etc., but the majority are people accustomed to or prepared for the drill; many of the examples I just gave involve one-offs because of the nature of a company like Amazon. Then imagine a terrorist incident occurs, and suddenly the US borders get sealed for a couple days. You'll recall the US does have fluctuating paranoia about borders lately. Finally, fumbling with two currencies is not a minor matter, even in the electronic payments age.

Now let's complicate it further. I recently learned that Canada refuses entry to anybody who has had a DUI in the past 10 years (or, ever?), even if arriving by air and not driving. Canada should do whatever it sees fit, but to most people that's a totally random rule; there would be plenty of people needing to go for a meeting -- or visiting a family member -- who suddenly have to tell their bosses they can't go because an Uber never showed up seven years ago one night after having a second glass of wine. There are lots of avid skiers who simply have never made it to Whistler for this reason. It is also easy to see further "suspicious crimes" being added to the list; what about convictions for arson when participating in a mass protest against a pipeline or statue, etc.? Again, control borders as you please, but don't think it'll be easy on a giant multinational corporation with frequently relocating families and its main HQ in the US.


Well it's not about whether those things are available; it's about what kind of mindshare they occupy. It is human nature to localize yourself and assimilate into the culture around you, so people will be attuned to different sensibilities, unless they really try to focus on US issues. I have no idea if that will be mostly irrelevant to whatever this HQ's activities will be (it could be a back office), but at fifty thousand people I doubt they can ignore all the various facets of their home market.

I very much agree with you however if this HQ's goal is to be more sensitized to things happening overseas; the US mindset is extremely inward looking and provincially minded, no matter what city you pick, so Toronto would be great as an office overseeing operations in other countries.


Back to the differences in the countries' legal systems that could literally land unsuspecting employees in jail or with big penalties: It seems that Canada doesn't have robust protections on freedom of speech. I understand there is a new law punishing the incorrect usage of a gender pronoun. Punishing speech is a slippery slope; it's very easy to see bans five or ten or twenty years down the road against microagressions against religious, or ethnic minorities, etc. Freedom of speech and thought are the bedrock of the bedrock in the US (social pressure is preferred instead of laws), so this trend is unthinkably regressive. Speaking of language by the way, would every official piece of paper, and every sign, in the HQ2 be required by law to be written in French and English? I hope Amazon has some big operations in Canada, but for an HQ2 caliber office I see many headaches.
Funny.

You talk of freedom of speech and in one fell swoop disregard the need for official languages to be protected in corporate affairs. Enlightened folks in your country have taken Spanish out of the pantry and into everyday life. That has made things better, richer, not worse. The most successful companies in the world economy, the Apples and Googles are adamant about reaching out to all cultures, all languages. Your comments are muddled. On one hand you claim that Canada needs to reinforce freedoms and in the other you taketh away. What you mention about DUI's is a problem for canuckistanis going stateside as well.I think you are feeling the heat, eh?
     
     
  #344  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2017, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Pedestrian View Post
It's so relaxing to live in a city that has no chance, not much reason to care and isn't likely to even try.
I agree but unlike everywhere else, the Bay Area actually does deserves it as this region is already Amazon's 2nd biggest outpost by far, with 30,000 employees and 3 million sq ft of commercial space.

Many of Amazon's biggest technical breakthroughs were/are engjneered here:

Quote:
We are Amazon Lab126

Amazon Lab126 is an inventive San Francisco Bay Area research and development company that designs and engineers high-profile consumer electronic devices. We engineer devices like Fire tablets, Kindle e-readers, Amazon Fire TV, and Amazon Echo.
https://www.lab126.com/

But I digress, the housing crisis, income inequality folks and NIMBYs would never let it happen, which is a shame bevause imo the current redevelopment at Candlestick/ Hunter's Point would be extremely ideal for something like this.
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  #345  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2017, 12:23 PM
JMKeynes JMKeynes is offline
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SF would be a top contender but for the fact that I assume that Anazon wants geographic diversity. NY and Boston are the closest to Europe. Also, California's time difference with Europe limits the ability to overlap the workday with Europe.

I don't buy the "cheap" factor that Chicago, Atl, and Dallas are trying to sell. Thus, geography -- not high costs -- are SF's problem in my opinion. If geography isn't an issue for Amazon, then SF may be the top contender.
     
     
  #346  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2017, 12:24 PM
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Plot Twist: Amazon Picks Juárez, Mexico as the location.

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  #347  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2017, 1:03 PM
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Originally Posted by JMKeynes View Post
SF would be a top contender but for the fact that I assume that Anazon wants geographic diversity. NY and Boston are the closest to Europe. Also, California's time difference with Europe limits the ability to overlap the workday with Europe.

I don't buy the "cheap" factor that Chicago, Atl, and Dallas are trying to sell. Thus, geography -- not high costs -- are SF's problem in my opinion. If geography isn't an issue for Amazon, then SF may be the top contender.
Which is why I think it should be NYC or Chicago or DC or SF( not gonna happen tho)

It should be a higher profile city than Seattle otherwise whats the point? Hudson Yards like I said would be absolutely perfect.

But we shall see.
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  #348  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2017, 1:09 PM
ScreamShatter ScreamShatter is offline
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Originally Posted by dimondpark View Post
Which is why I think it should be NYC or Chicago or DC or SF( not gonna happen tho)

It should be a higher profile city than Seattle otherwise whats the point? Hudson Yards like I said would be absolutely perfect.

But we shall see.
Except an average worker salary of $100k in NYC doesn't go very far. The workers are going to have to live in Brooklyn, other far out burroughs, or NJ in order to afford living. Honestly, I wouldn't live in NYC for $100k....there's just no point.

And I must have missed that section of the RFP that said "high profile city." Can you direct me to that? I seem to remember the RFP calling out "Quality of Life" though.

Realistically, there are tons of East Coasters that have no desire to move west, and we have the top schools in the country which is instant recruiting gold for Amazon.
     
     
  #349  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2017, 1:09 PM
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...Did Amazon specifically say that they're looking for somewhere cheaper than Seattle? If so, obviously NYC will never be considered. DC and Boston wouldn't either. I don't remember reading that though. I do think Chicago strikes the right balance but the economic situation there might scare them away.
Hello, Philadelphia.

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Source & details:
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  #350  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2017, 1:12 PM
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I said this earlier. Paul Allen once wanted to try and convince officials to move the Port of Seattle to Tacoma and develop that area into a mixed use neighborhood. Makes me wonder...
Amazon isn't leaving Seattle anytime soon even with increasing costs.

People seem to be glancing over this but I think the biggest factor in Amazon's decision would be the operational risk brought upon by a natural disaster. If "the big one" were to rock Seattle tomorrow, Amazon's supply chain would be in ruin and not only cripple the company, but create a ripple effect and damage the national economy as a result. Creating a second HQ ensures stability, allows Amazon to be operational, and leaves their supply chain mostly intact in the wake of such an event.

Hence this probably favors an inland metro ala Chicago, Atlanta, DC, etc even more because they aren't nearly as prone to natural disaster and thus the operational risk on their ecosystem isn't nearly as great
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Last edited by nature's calling; Sep 9, 2017 at 1:27 PM.
     
     
  #351  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2017, 1:45 PM
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Dear Jeff Bezos. Please come to Houston. We have the Astrodome, NASA, the Galleria and Mattress Mack. The Astros are winning this year and JJ Watt is awesome. Thank you.
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  #352  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2017, 2:06 PM
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Except an average worker salary of $100k in NYC doesn't go very far.
Yeah? Then why does NYC continue to attract the best and brightest while far cheaper cities usually settle for back office and support staff?

Some cities attract the best of the best-others dont. Amazon surely is keeping that in mind.

Quote:
The workers are going to have to live in Brooklyn, other far out burroughs, or NJ in order to afford living. Honestly, I wouldn't live in NYC for $100k....there's just no point.
Millenial techies in Brooklyn. What a novelty

Quote:
And I must have missed that section of the RFP that said "high profile city." Can you direct me to that? I seem to remember the RFP calling out "Quality of Life" though.
I dont get your defensiveness at all. In my opinion it's pointless to spend $5 billion on a downgrade. You are free to disagree.

Quote:
Realistically, there are tons of East Coasters that have no desire to move west
The most upwardly mobile East Coasters have no problem moving as SF has arguably the 2nd largest concentration of Ivy League Grads in the country.

Ivy League Schools, Top 3 Alumni Concentrations

Harvard
1 Boston
2 New York
3 San Francisco

Yale
1 New York
2 San Francisco
3 Boston

Princeton
1 New York
2 San Francisco
3 Washington DC

Brown
1 New York
2 Boston
3 Providence

Columbia
1 New York
2 San Francisco
3 Washington DC

Penn
1 Philadelphia
2 New York
3 Washington DC

Dartmouth
1 Boston
2 New York
3 Washington DC

Cornell
1 New York
2 Ithaca
3 San Francisco

https://pando.com/2013/07/04/inside-las-ongoing-talent-conundrum/

Quote:
and we have the top schools in the country which is instant recruiting gold for Amazon.
Perhaps but since the biggest tech companies are overwhelmingly out west...

5 most valuable companies on earth by market capitalization, Sep 8th, 2017:
1 Apple $819 Billion(Bay Area)
2 Alphabet $652 Billion(Bay Area)
3 Microsoft $569 Billion(Seattle Area)
4 Facebook $496 Billion( Bay Area)
5 Amazon $464 Billion(Seattle Area)

I cant see Havard or MIT grads not going after jobs out west.

ijs
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  #353  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2017, 2:37 PM
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Originally Posted by JMKeynes View Post
SF would be a top contender but for the fact that I assume that Anazon wants geographic diversity. NY and Boston are the closest to Europe. Also, California's time difference with Europe limits the ability to overlap the workday with Europe.

I don't buy the "cheap" factor that Chicago, Atl, and Dallas are trying to sell. Thus, geography -- not high costs -- are SF's problem in my opinion. If geography isn't an issue for Amazon, then SF may be the top contender.
Few tiny problems with SF: Lack of available sites, Prop M cap, existing backlog for large space under the cap, what would be violent (probably literally) opposition, transit, affordability/COL, worst housing crunch on the continent, etc.

I mean besides that it's perfect.
     
     
  #354  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2017, 2:56 PM
JMKeynes JMKeynes is offline
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Originally Posted by dimondpark View Post
Yeah? Then why does NYC continue to attract the best and brightest while far cheaper cities usually settle for back office and support staff?

Some cities attract the best of the best-others dont. Amazon surely is keeping that in mind.


Millenial techies in Brooklyn. What a novelty


I dont get your defensiveness at all. In my opinion it's pointless to spend $5 billion on a downgrade. You are free to disagree.


The most upwardly mobile East Coasters have no problem moving as SF has arguably the 2nd largest concentration of Ivy League Grads in the country.

Ivy League Schools, Top 3 Alumni Concentrations

Harvard
1 Boston
2 New York
3 San Francisco

Yale
1 New York
2 San Francisco
3 Boston

Princeton
1 New York
2 San Francisco
3 Washington DC

Brown
1 New York
2 Boston
3 Providence

Columbia
1 New York
2 San Francisco
3 Washington DC

Penn
1 Philadelphia
2 New York
3 Washington DC

Dartmouth
1 Boston
2 New York
3 Washington DC
This isn't surprising. NY, SF, Boston, and DC are the most sophisticated and richest US cities and that's where the cream of the crop wants to be.
     
     
  #355  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2017, 3:16 PM
Car(e)-Free LA Car(e)-Free LA is offline
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Crazy NY proposal idea: redevelopment LGA Airport into new Amazon campus/high rise neighborhood. Increase capacity at EWR and JFK.

Actually though, I think LA is a top contender. Great universities, desirable city, massive redevelopable sites in southeast quadrant of downtown, decent transit and freeways, unbeatable airport, port, and freight connections, and an absolutely massive workforce. There will also be a future HSR to San Francisco. Also less expensive than NY, SF, Boston.

Last edited by Car(e)-Free LA; Sep 9, 2017 at 3:27 PM.
     
     
  #356  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2017, 3:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Car(e)-Free LA View Post
Crazy NY proposal idea: redevelopment LGA Airport into new Amazon campus/high rise neighborhood. Increase capacity at EWR and JFK.

Actually though, I think LA is a top contender. Great universities, desirable city, massive redevelopable sites in southeast quadrant of downtown, decent transit and freeways, unbeatable airport, port, and freight connections, and an absolutely massive workforce. Also less expensive than NY, SF, Boston.
An multi-billion dollar new terminal is under construction at LGA.

The best spot in NY is the HY or 2 WTC with an ancillary campus in Brooklyn and/or JC.
     
     
  #357  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2017, 3:20 PM
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Bezos and his lieutenants may be reacting to our extreme political, social and cultural polarization by seeking a second base in a red state such as Texas. This would potentially give Amazon more political protection from Republican lawmakers — remember, President Donald Trump has threatened antitrust action against Bezos
People are seriously over thinking this. Trump is a blip in time. While the Trump train wreck seems like forever, it will end.

Amazon, wants another location and that location needs to have land and proximity to a range of ways of commuting. It also needs to be a cost efficient place that also is attractive to recruiting talent. That's why the RFP says metros 1 million+

It doesn't say 5 million+

It doesn't say 20 million+ aka NYC which would be costly to them and to employees.

Does that mean that they are not looking at 5 million+ metros - Dallas, Detroit etc?

Of course not.

It means that they will weigh the offerings of each city including the billions $$$ in incentives.
     
     
  #358  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2017, 3:30 PM
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Originally Posted by themaguffin View Post
....
It means that they will weigh the offerings of each city including the billions $$$ in incentives.
We all agree that the city which gives the most money will land this. NY has to succeed on its unparalleled merits, as its left-wing leaders will be parsimonious.

Places like Atlanta which are utterly desperate for international recognition will cough up A LOT of money.
     
     
  #359  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2017, 3:38 PM
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Places like Atlanta which are utterly desperate for international recognition will cough up A LOT of money.


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  #360  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2017, 3:56 PM
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Originally Posted by cjreisen View Post
You're missing one of the biggest points though, whatever city gets chosen needs to have two things that Toronto DOESN'T have:

1. Space to build. There's not a contiguous 8 million square feet of space anywhere near the center of downtown.
Toronto's East Harbour site alone is being planned for 11 million square feet of office space and 50,000 workers. A major subway/RER/streetcar interchange will serve the site. The mostly undeveloped East Bayfront and Port Lands are also nearby. There's plenty of space. The site is tailor made for a project like this; whether it's Amazon or someone else doesn't really matter.


Rezoning Application Outlines Vision for East Harbour Site
     
     
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