Amazon HQ2 thread

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by denizen467

I thought of Toronto right away. But there are big problems. One is ability to relocate candidates from the US; you cannot staff this new HQ without drawing on the talent pool of the US to fill a substantial fraction of the workforce; just think of all the graduate students they would want to attract. Another problem is daily business trips to various US cities by the workforce; crossing the international border introduces uncertainty and delay, and you've got the concern of juggling two currencies. (Obviously, Londoners visiting the Continent for business is a counterexample, but it's not entirely analogous.) Finally, people in this new HQ are going to need to have their finger on the pulse of the US culturally, politically, legally, etc. Considering how intimately Amazon is interweaving itself into daily life and urban living, more deeply with each passing year, I think working in Toronto, and watching mainly hockey and following provincial parliamentary politics, etc., etc., would put people slightly out of touch with life in the US. (As another example, IIRC, Canadian TV stations by law are required to broadcast Canada-produced shows up to some large percentage of the day.) In sum, if we were talking about a turbine manufacturer, a drone developer, a gaming company, or some other single-line business, Toronto would be fine, but Amazon is too wide ranging an enterprise for Canada to work as their HQ for what largely is a USA market. Placing one of their divisions there might work though. P.S. Please get Blackberry back into shape, their decline does not make you look good, and pointing to Stevie's/Timmy's vanity spaceship in Cupertino is no excuse.

Nice that you actually thought of Toronto but your post more or less confirms that even people who have Toronto on their radar have bizarre perceptions of Canada and the realities of living in Toronto.

I'm not trying to be mean but I honestly don't know where to start. This is Toronto not Ulaanbaatar, Mongolia. Amazon is a global company and many global companies are run out of Toronto. Pearson airport has more global connections than any other airport in north America except JFK. Millions of business trips between Canada and the world (US included) are made every year. Many regular fliers apply for special passports that fast track them through customs. Access to the world is one of Toronto's attributes, not a draw back.

Access to talent? Canada is one of the most open nations on earth when it comes to mobility of professional labour across international borders. On top of that it's easier for international talent to travel hassle free into Canada than for them to do the same into the USA. Southern Ontario alone produces more engineering, math, and computer science graduates each year than the entire state of California. Even if no employees were sourced from the USA Toronto would have no problem staffing this proposed HQ.

Access to US politics, culture? Canada has a window seat to what happens next door. We get minute by minute updates all year long (just like Americans). Canadian and US culture are one in the same and it's been that way since the New World was all just 'America' back in the 1600s. Canadians get every single media outlet Americans get + we get Canadian, British, and French on top of that. If anything, Canada is a bonus to a global corporation because the outlook is more international in scope. The UN declared Toronto the most diverse city in the world. As such it's uniquely qualified to host a truly global enterprise. Lastly, you think the only thing on tv in Canada is hockey and parliamentary channels? We've been living in a 500 channel universe for 30 years. 20% of the shows you watch are made here, for heaven's sake.

If someone who actually notices that Toronto exists has this shockingly non-existent understanding of Canada, I shudder to think what the other 95% think.

[Steely Dan]

Source: https://i.memecaptain.com/gend_images/eY6dvg.jpg

[Xelebes]

If Edmonton was to propose a package, it would probably be placed in Blatchford. Would be nice to see that development get its first big name.

[The North One]

People are writing college essays all over this thread, who is honestly reading all of this?

[cjreisen]

Originally Posted by isaidso

Nice that you actually thought of Toronto but your post more or less confirms that even people who have Toronto on their radar have bizarre perceptions of Canada and the realities of living in Toronto.

I'm not trying to be mean but I honestly don't know where to start. This is Toronto not Ulaanbaatar, Mongolia. Amazon is a global company and many global companies are run out of Toronto. Pearson airport has more global connections than any other airport in north America except JFK. Millions of business trips between Canada and the world (US included) are made every year. Many regular fliers apply for special passports that fast track them through customs. Access to the world is one of Toronto's attributes, not a draw back.

Access to talent? Canada is one of the most open nations on earth when it comes to mobility of professional labour across international borders. On top of that it's easier for international talent to travel hassle free into Canada than for them to do the same into the USA. Southern Ontario alone produces more engineering, math, and computer science graduates each year than the entire state of California. Even if no employees were sourced from the USA Toronto would have no problem staffing this proposed HQ.

Access to US politics, culture? Canada has a window seat to what happens next door. We get minute by minute updates all year long (just like Americans). Canadian and US culture are one in the same and it's been that way since the New World was all just 'America' back in the 1600s. Canadians get every single media outlet Americans get + we get Canadian, British, and French on top of that. If anything, Canada is a bonus to a global corporation because the outlook is more international in scope. The UN declared Toronto the most diverse city in the world. As such it's uniquely qualified to host a truly global enterprise. Lastly, you think the only thing on tv in Canada is hockey and parliamentary channels? We've been living in a 500 channel universe for 30 years. 20% of the shows you watch are made here, for heaven's sake.

If someone who actually notices that Toronto exists has this shockingly non-existent understanding of Canada, I shudder to think what the other 95% think.

You're missing one of the biggest points though, whatever city gets chosen needs to have two things that Toronto DOESN'T have:

1. Space to build. There's not a contiguous 8 million square feet of space anywhere near the center of downtown. And I think this requirement on its own IMPLIES a US city is who they want to hear from. They know non-dense US cities with deep pockets for business incentives are gonna come knocking, the likes of Denver, Austin, Dallas, Minneapolis, Raleigh, Pittsburgh. Amazon doesn't want NYC, and it doesn't want Toronto, and it doesn't want LA. IT wasnt a city where it can do a "Seattle". Just as Amazon turned around downtown seattle and made the city relevant again, Amazon wants to not be a small fish in a big pond, amazon wants to dam the creek to make the pond. It included Canada and Mexico to widen the net, so American cities would come with a bigger piece of steak to dangle in front of them. Amazon in the end knows this is a move to keep people in the company, so they can move between campuses. And it's gonna be hard as hell to move between campuses in two different countries. What Amazon truly truly wants, is a city far different from Seattle with different appeal for a second HQ. And let's be real, Toronto is a bigger Seattle with less local culture, more glass buildings, and colder weather. Toronto is fun for Canadians, but if I can live in a nice warm city like Raleigh, Atlanta, Austin, Dallas, god knows I'm not moving to Toronto where I'm gonna freeze my dick off for six months.

Sorry for the tangent.

2. Amazon wants a city for a good distribution center, where land transit is easy. And let's be real, Toronto makes land transit to the US about as hard as possible. A trip by truck to NYC is almost twice as long as it should be due to the lake. Similar situation with trying to reach Chicago. Toronto doesn't fill many needs in the long run. But it's a good carrot to dangle. Toronto is seriously the closest possible parallel to seattle in canada, even moreso than vancouver. Not what amazon wants, unless it's looking for a bunch of uber progressive robots wearing glasses, drinking coffee and talking about bernie sanders all day.

[James Bond Agent 007]

Originally Posted by The North One

People are writing college essays all over this thread, who is honestly reading all of this?

I know, seriously. I bet some of the people here promoting their city have already written more words than will be in the bid their city submits to Amazon.

[ssiguy]

Well I'm not sure what to say about the above post but Pearson International is one of the biggest airports in NA with, as mentioned previously, huge international connections. It is within a 12 hour drive of 150,000,000. The 401 is the busiest truck transport route on the planet.

Toronto is a very diverse, multicultural, safe, liveable artistic, cultural, very well educated vibrant city with excellent post secondary and K to 12 education which many US cities can't claim. It's public health system is vastly superior and costs far less for employers than in the US.......a real money saver for Amazon and free healthcae for it's employees. The city has very good and extensive transit and a direct Airport/Downtown rail link. There is huge swths of the Eastern Waterfront that are currently vacant but developing massive housing developments and a monsterous available area for office space. Greater Toronto is growing at 150,000/year and Canada has a much more welcoming enviornment for international skilled workers both legally and socially while Trump sends out the exact opposite message including to his own people, see DACA. Canada was recently rated as the #1 place to do business in the G7 due to it's low taxes, educated workforce, quality of life, ease of doing business, and relative lack of red tape.

Toronto offers massive ongoing cost savings that no American city can {or will ever be able to} offer. Money will primarily be earned in the US so in US$ but in Toronto the labour would be paid in CND$. That means that for the exact same amount of money Amazon could hire 50,000 Toronto employees for the same cost of just 40,000 US employees. That's a huge plus to the bottom line and earning more money in Canada is a bonus because Canada's corporate tax rates are 40% lower than US rates when including added state/provincial corporate rates.

That's mega bucks being saved year after year, decade after decade and not just a one-time government state/provincial tapayer funded handout.

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by Via Chicago

this is the total opposite reaction of everyone i know who has lived in Seattle long term. most people are not skyscraper fanboys studying density charts on their friday evenings. they just want interesting places to live that are affordable to the middle class, and Amazon has directly contributed to making seattle largely unattainable to everyone other than highly paid tech workers.

also, renters are a massive component of the modern city (increasingly so as younger people push of home buying longer). simply shrugging off their situation is not productive to maintaining a viable healthy city.

i am not opposed to growth, its necessary. but i am a fan of measured incremental growth. a 50K influx all at once is going to fundamentally change what it means to live in whatever city it is that wins this. and it will not all be for the best.

You're right to point out that there are no simple win-wins with something like this, and that there are potential drawbacks; but those 50,000 employees aren't all going to be starting on day one - just as they aren't planning on building 8 million sqft. of office space all at once. And either way, there's no reason to think that these employees would all be transplants - most would probably be locals (hence the desire for being located in a region with a lot of quality universities).

It just seems a little short sighted to object to the creation of 50,000 well-paying jobs on the basis that it could drive prices up (particularly in cities with stagnant or declining populations). Not everyone would win, but the city as a whole would certainly be a beneficiary - from corporate & income taxes, population growth, and spinoff industries.

[LMich]

Originally Posted by The North One

People are writing college essays all over this thread, who is honestly reading all of this?

I got jumped on over at SSC for noting the hysteria surrounding this announcement. Yeah, I'd like to see my region land this and I'd like to see cities put together proposal to try and land this; this is an excellent excerize in being prepared when something like this happens. But some people are treating this Amazon announcement as the second coming of urban economic development or some frivilous must-have (literally have seen that term used for this announcement) fall fashion accessory for cities.

Like, chill the hell out, folks. lol I think it really points to - in an embarrassing way - how incredibly unplanned and uncoordinated the American economy is that the reaction to this has essentially been like a teenage girl seeing Elvis for the first time and fainting. Let's act like we've been here before.

[ssiguy]

To add to the above I am NOT saying Toronto will get it as there are many viable US alternatives but the complete assumption some of our US fellow commenters that this is strictly a battle between US cities truly baffles me.

[jubguy3]

Originally Posted by austlar1

I don't necessarily disagree with you. The speculation comes from other Austin SSP forum members. People with "inside information" seem to think that Japan Airlines might introduce a flight to their Tokyo hub. I don't know the amount of Asian traffic originating here on a daily basis, but there is probably more business travel between Austin and Asia than between Phoenix or Miami and Asia. Just about all of the tech players have substantial operations here nowadays. I was doubtful that Austin would support the BA London flight. I was quickly proven wrong. I thought the Condor Frankfurt flight would tank. It is going from 3x a week to daily, or maybe it already has. Now this Norwegian Air flight is starting soon. Austin continues to amaze me with the rapid transformation it has made in the past 20 years since I moved here. The second Amazon HQ could work here easily, but I think Dallas/FW area (or Pittsburgh) might have a better shot at it. I am just hoping that the Whole Foods HQ will remain here.

edit - delete

[cjreisen]

Originally Posted by ReeWee

Your #2 is nonsense.

The words of someone without a rebuttal. Toronto is very far from any meaningful city, an 8 hour drive to NYC? Which is relatively close compared to most other cities. That's not a distribution center that'll interest anyone.

[cjreisen]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

Well I'm not sure what to say about the above post but Pearson International is one of the biggest airports in NA with, as mentioned previously, huge international connections. It is within a 12 hour drive of 150,000,000. The 401 is the busiest truck transport route on the planet.

Toronto is a very diverse, multicultural, safe, liveable artistic, cultural, very well educated vibrant city with excellent post secondary and K to 12 education which many US cities can't claim. It's public health system is vastly superior and costs far less for employers than in the US.......a real money saver for Amazon and free healthcae for it's employees. The city has very good and extensive transit and a direct Airport/Downtown rail link. There is huge swths of the Eastern Waterfront that are currently vacant but developing massive housing developments and a monsterous available area for office space. Greater Toronto is growing at 150,000/year and Canada has a much more welcoming enviornment for international skilled workers both legally and socially while Trump sends out the exact opposite message including to his own people, see DACA. Canada was recently rated as the #1 place to do business in the G7 due to it's low taxes, educated workforce, quality of life, ease of doing business, and relative lack of red tape.

Toronto offers massive ongoing cost savings that no American city can {or will ever be able to} offer. Money will primarily be earned in the US so in US$ but in Toronto the labour would be paid in CND$. That means that for the exact same amount of money Amazon could hire 50,000 Toronto employees for the same cost of just 40,000 US employees. That's a huge plus to the bottom line and earning more money in Canada is a bonus because Canada's corporate tax rates are 40% lower than US rates when including added state/provincial corporate rates.

That's mega bucks being saved year after year, decade after decade and not just a one-time government state/provincial tapayer funded handout.

A lot of fluff here and anecdotal claims with no backing, and completely arbitrary rankings. Point is Seattle is pretty much all those things already other than having low taxes. It's a livable, safe city, international, hugely educated workforce, relative ease of operation. Those aren't unique qualities in north america, bro. You hype up Canada way too much. Fact is, Toronto is very very vanilla. Toronto doesn't have the zest or intriguing culture that many US cities have, and that's what Amazon wants. You're looking too deeply into the same qualities that the livability rankings look at, but the problem is no one actually cares about that stuff until they're 40 and boring. Amazon is trying to attract young talent. And I'm sorry, but Toronto is not a sexy or overly interesting city. I think Montreal even more closely falls into that category.

[Pedestrian]

Originally Posted by James Bond Agent 007

I know, seriously. I bet some of the people here promoting their city have already written more words than will be in the bid their city submits to Amazon.

It's so relaxing to live in a city that has no chance, not much reason to care and isn't likely to even try.

[YSL]

Originally Posted by cjreisen

You're missing one of the biggest points though, whatever city gets chosen needs to have two things that Toronto DOESN'T have:

1. Space to build. There's not a contiguous 8 million square feet of space anywhere near the center of downtown. And I think this requirement on its own IMPLIES a US city is who they want to hear from. They know non-dense US cities with deep pockets for business incentives are gonna come knocking, the likes of Denver, Austin, Dallas, Minneapolis, Raleigh, Pittsburgh. Amazon doesn't want NYC, and it doesn't want Toronto, and it doesn't want LA.
Sorry for the tangent.

*Manhattan* has far more than 8 million square ft of continuous brand new, state of the art office buildings going up in one single neighborhood in by far the greatest 'downtown' in America aka Midtown Manhattan. It's called Hudson Yards. Over 13 million square ft of office space is being built there. There is no better, more ambitious, more sophisticated, more state of the art development in the United States. It's truly unparalleled. It has everything - transit on site, state of the art architecture, perfect urban planning (down to automated vacuum waste collection system that sucks trash underground, and dazzling starchitect designed parks and boulevards), world class shopping, dining, residential development, schools, entertainment, 'culture sheds', landscaping, public art, luxury hotels and of course - access to the largest concentration of ivy league/top grads in the world.

New York ticks every one of Amazon's boxes, and annihilates its competition in everything but one category - costs. And that's a major one since NYC has the most expensive construction costs in the world.

Did Amazon specifically say that they're looking for somewhere cheaper than Seattle? If so, obviously NYC will never be considered. DC and Boston wouldn't either. I don't remember reading that though. I do think Chicago strikes the right balance but the economic situation there might scare them away.

[softee]

Originally Posted by cjreisen

A lot of fluff here and anecdotal claims with no backing, and completely arbitrary rankings. Point is Seattle is pretty much all those things already other than having low taxes. It's a livable, safe city, international, hugely educated workforce, relative ease of operation. Those aren't unique qualities in north america, bro. You hype up Canada way too much. Fact is, Toronto is very very vanilla. Toronto doesn't have the zest or intriguing culture that many US cities have, and that's what Amazon wants. You're looking too deeply into the same qualities that the livability rankings look at, but the problem is no one actually cares about that stuff until they're 40 and boring. Amazon is trying to attract young talent. And I'm sorry, but Toronto is not a sexy or overly interesting city. I think Montreal even more closely falls into that category.

Are you seriously stating as fact that Toronto lacks any of the sort of interesting, urban character and local culture that is attractive to young people?

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=229485

^ Yeah, the first thing that comes to mind when I look at those photos is "very very vanilla."

[C.]

This thread is a riot!



I can just see Jeff Bezos' enlarged ego as he skimms the various forums on the Internet, marveling at his creation.

I would love to see Amazon come to NYC, but I would be shocked due to the high costs associated with paying competitive salaries for 50,000 employees along with leasing 10 million sqft of office space. This irrational boosterism has to stop. Some of the posts from boosters of certain cities would pass as satire if the posters weren't dead serious.

[SlidellWx]

It will all come down to which city or state has the biggest bags of money to offer Amazon. We'll find out where that is soon enough.

[a very long weekend]

well, again, it's pretty obvious that amazon won't be doing this in canada, the political repercussions would be crazy. toronto is almost a perfect place for this from a certain perspective. but if they wanted to take advantage of the canadian stuff, they'd have done it quietly. so, canadians, don't worry, this won't be a thing up there to further kill your housing markets.

also, that 50,000 number is a growth capacity number that amazon is looking to over the next 12 or whatever years. the unfilled positions in seattle are about 1000, there are acquisitions to be consolidated and they're looking for up to 500k square feet of office space for 2019, not 8 million. what we're probably looking at is amazon trying to fill jobs they can't fill because people won't take the salaries offered to move to seattle/the bay area. so, what we're really looking at is like 2000-5000 jobs over the next number of years, basically, a promise to fill their unfilled jobs in whatever town wins, and to funnel growth down the line into that town.

i'd be really surprised if it didn't go to chicago. available space, easy to build, great transit, great amenities, walkable and attractive town, pretty good colleges, truly world class air connections, and time zone is hard to beat. plus, there's a feeder system that funnels the top class of midwesterners from dozens/hundreds of universities right to the loop. maybe amazon is going to really cheap out and send it to the south somewhere, which would make sense, since they apparently already have retention problems and could use a desperate workforce, but chicago seems more like it.

if goddamned california hadn't fucking killed ourselves with housing costs, probably amazon would already be a california company. it's highly annoying.

[C.]

Reading through the RFP again, it's going to be interesting reading all the submissions from cities across the country (...and Canada). Amazon is specific looking at a regions with transit infrastructure and walkability.

For example, look at a couple components that would have to be included in the RFP submission:

Please provide highway, airport, and related travel and logistics information for all proposed sites. Please also include transit and transportation options for commuting employees living in the region. For each proposed site in your region, identify all transit options, including bike lanes and pedestrian access to the site(s). Also, list the ranking of traffic congestion for your community and/or region during peak commuting times.

Please include information on your community with respect to daily living, recreational opportunities, diversity of housing options, availability of housing near potential sites for HQ2, and pricing, among other information. Please also include relevant crime data and cost of living data.

That sends a message to cities that transit and mixed-use neighborhoods are important. I wonder what kind of policy changes, if any, cities may institute to become more attractive to companies like Amazon.

Also one of the requirements:

A stable and business-friendly environment

Doesn't that rule out Illinois?? Just kidding, Chicago...