Calgary International Airport II

[jc_yyc_ca]

Originally Posted by suburbia

Things could take a major positive turn if Nenshi and team land Amazon!

Amazon's possibility of coming here would have nothing to do with 'Nenshi and team'. Amazon will be looking at all kinds of factors, none of which Nenshi and his team control. Every other city vying for Amazon's second HQ office will have their 'mayor and team' doing the usual selling, but in the end it will come down to what works best for Amazon. I would be very surprised if it ended up in Canada.

[Tobuz]

Check out this brand new post on the "airlinemaps" blog on Tumblr. (As an airline nerd, an airport nerd, and a map geek ... I absolutely love this site.)

They're doing a series of posts now in honour off Air Canada's 80th birthday.

This one is a flashback to YYC, circa 2001 ... before today's concourse A existed, and when there were some CP-turned-AC gates right where A concourse check-in is today. I recall that the secure/sterile passenger lounge then pretty much went all the way to the 'curbside' wall. There was really no public concourse along where those gates were.

http://airlinemaps.tumblr.com/post/165113489687/air-canada-calgary-diagram-2001-an-air-canada/amp

Also note three (!) Maple Leaf Lounges here at YYC post CP acquisition. (Although it was small and a bit dumpy, I fondly recall the old CP transborder lounge -- which had previously been a Delta lounge. It was replaced by the concourse B Burger King and Tim Hortons not long after AC took over.)

The sad part, per the commentary about AC's status at YYC on that page:

The Canadian flag carrier always had a significant operation in Calgary that was briefly elevated to something near a hub after the Canadi>n Airlines International merger in 2000.

Air Canada no longer publishes maps of Calgary airport.

I did notice on my AC flight this week that - even with a big, new airport terminal and a more complex connections process - there's still no map in AC's seat pocket book for YYC. Only YYZ, YVR and YUL. The route map still shows YYC as a hub, but the airport maps would tend to indicate otherwise.

[msmariner]

Around noon today I saw the Alaska flight come in. It appeared to be a Boeing 717. Is that correct and is that new for them here?

[wave46]

Originally Posted by FormerWingTipper

That may be the "airport" definition and understanding of swing gates.



That is exactly the purpose the "airlines" want, especially for a regional hub like YYC that relies on domestic traffic feeding transborder flights and vice versa.


The airport authority should have built an airport that the airlines wanted. That is what most businesses do... they build what the customer wants. Instead, we have an airport authority that thinks they know everything and the airlines are to blame for not scheduling flights accordingly. Again, no wonder there is no love for YYC from either AC or WS right now.

To be fair, Westjet has changed their operational strategy pretty dramatically in the past 5-10 years. They have moved from a Southwest analogue to a more hub-and-spoke airline. I don't think it is fair to the airport to completely cater to an airline when said airline changes its operational strategy. The timelines for each just don't work.

Air Canada has at least been relatively consistent - they've always been a hub and spoke airline. I just think they're prioritizing their other hubs right now, which makes sense, given that Calgary is a fairly small 'hub' for them as compared to YYZ, YUL and YVR.

A number of US airports have built their facilities around a single carrier, just to see that carrier depart. So, I guess that the airport authority has to walk a tightrope between serving current customer's demands, but also having flexibility to accommodate other operations.

[suburbia]

Originally Posted by jc_yyc_ca

Amazon's possibility of coming here would have nothing to do with 'Nenshi and team'. Amazon will be looking at all kinds of factors, none of which Nenshi and his team control. Every other city vying for Amazon's second HQ office will have their 'mayor and team' doing the usual selling, but in the end it will come down to what works best for Amazon. I would be very surprised if it ended up in Canada.

Oh I fully disagree. The people actually making the pitch to Amazon will be municipal. Nenshi is a camp at positioning and strategy. That's why he's the all-time gold-medal winner at debates and business case competitions for UCalgary, and that's why the global consulting firm McKinsey & Company had him consulting to global technology and communications companies. It is also fact that major decisions made by "Nenshi and Team" has actually enhanced Calgary as a major logistics / transportation hub. Can you imagine a neo con butcher like McIver making such a pitch to a technology company?

[Tobuz]

Originally Posted by msmariner

Around noon today I saw the Alaska flight come in. It appeared to be a Boeing 717. Is that correct and is that new for them here?

All SEA-YYC flights on Alaska are now being operated by Horizon, their regional subsidiary.

(It was previously a mix of mainline AS and Horizon, with mainline flying B737s.)

Now, Horizon is operating the route three times daily:
- twice with an Embraer E75 regional jet
- once on a Q400 turboprop

That'd be the E75 that you saw.

[outoftheice]

I've been following the discussion about swing gates at the International terminal with interest. There is a relatively easy solution to the problem and that is simply opening up barrier free access to the international departures hall from the domestic terminal.

While US departures must be segregated due to US Customs pre-clearance the only thing forcing the segregation of international departures is the airport's duty free shopping policy. Since international passengers are able to collect their duty free goods at the cash register and walk around with them, the entire international departures hall is bonded by Canada customs and passengers must not mix with domestic passengers. If the airport authority was to revert back to the old way of doing business, where passengers must show an international boarding card prior to making duty free purchases and then those duty free purchases could only be collected by passengers at the boarding gate there is no reason why the entire international departures hall couldn't be opened up to domestic departures.

By opening up the international departures hall to domestic departures the airport authority would dramatically increase the number of gates available to them that could be used for international arrivals/domestic departures, solving one of the main issues people seem to have with the new terminal. It would also open up the food and retail stores in the international departures hall as easily accessible options for passengers traveling domestically out of the C concourse as options are a bit limited there. Based on conversations that I've had with food vendors in the international departures hall, this move would be welcomed by tenants as the sales numbers aren't what they were promised by the airport authority.

The cost to this proposal would be the airport authority needing to hire a few duty free runners (my guess would be a maximum of 3 on shift at any given time) to distribute purchased items at the gate. This cost would be reduced by the fact that opening up the international departures hall to domestic travelers would eliminate the need for the security guard who currently must sit in the connecting hallway checking boarding passes. It would also limit passengers abilities to purchase last minute duty free items which could impact sales but as long as that is clearly advertised in the terminal, 'duty free must be purchased at least 5 minutes before the boarding time shown on your boarding card', I don't see it being much of an issue.

Personally I think opening up the international departures hall to domestic departures offers big wins for airline operations at the airport as well as for passengers and the price to pay for implementing the idea is low. Curious to hear everyone else's thoughts on the idea.

[thenoflyzone]

^

I agree. That is how it's done at YUL. On occasion you have domestic flights that board at the international jetty. The domestic wing and international wing are connected airside, so essentially, as far as departures are concerned, all gates are available for any destination that is not the US.

Duty free isn't an issue either. No need for runners. Simply check the boarding pass at the duty free cash to make sure the traveler is going abroad, and problem solved. The chances of him knowing someone else and passing along some booze to a friend on a domestic run are pretty low.

Added flexibility, less towing. Only benefits, as far as I'm concerned.

[FormerWingTipper]

I don't think CBSA will go for it as they want a Customs Controlled Area post security to conduct exit checks and interviews while roaming around the concourse, amongst whatever other benefits the CCA provides them.

[Cage]

Originally Posted by outoftheice

I've been following the discussion about swing gates at the International terminal with interest. There is a relatively easy solution to the problem and that is simply opening up barrier free access to the international departures hall from the domestic terminal.

The cost to this proposal would be the airport authority needing to hire a few duty free runners (my guess would be a maximum of 3 on shift at any given time) to distribute purchased items at the gate.

Personally I think opening up the international departures hall to domestic departures offers big wins for airline operations at the airport as well as for passengers and the price to pay for implementing the idea is low. Curious to hear everyone else's thoughts on the idea.

In my opinion, opening up Concourse D would be very short sighted.

The reason for segregating International and Domestic departures is easier international to international connections. Segregation is a requirement for Transit Without Visa. Segregation also facilitates easier CBSA processing of Intl-Intl connections as the CBSA officer has reduced concerns the connection pax would enter Canada illegally without appropriate documents.

As you know, WS has 10 Dreamliners on order and big plans for Asian expansion. The WS Dreamliners are the reason for the shortsighted comment above. If Concourse D was retrofitted to allow domestic ops, there would be calls in late 2018 and 2019 for a return to segregation to facilitate new Asian services on WS and or AC.

China bilateral is full on the Chinese airline end. The Canadian airlines are having trouble getting slots into PEK, the most important airport in China. The frontline of air battle in 2020 will be the new airport in Daxing.

Between AC and WS, one of the airlines is going to do YYC-BJS (BJS is the city code for Beijing). TWoV is a requirement for building a successful China connection operation. TWov is driving the recent AC transborder expansion at YVR with new services to DEN, SJC, BOS, mainline back on LAX and SFO, Dreamliner service to EWR. A 0.4% increase in AC marketshare on USA-Intl market has delivers $100 million plus in new revenue.

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone

^

I agree. That is how it's done at YUL. On occasion you have domestic flights that board at the international jetty. The domestic wing and international wing are connected airside, so essentially, as far as departures are concerned, all gates are available for any destination that is not the US.

Duty free isn't an issue either. No need for runners. Simply check the boarding pass at the duty free cash to make sure the traveler is going abroad, and problem solved. The chances of him knowing someone else and passing along some booze to a friend on a domestic run are pretty low.

Added flexibility, less towing. Only benefits, as far as I'm concerned.

With YUL recent success attracting Asian services, I predict the wall between Domestic and International will be rebuilt so that YUL can access the TWoV market.

Admittedly I haven't been through YUL in 7 years, I mostly connect through the USA because I am UA Gold. Also the AC YYZ expansion and focus on Intl-domestic and USA-Domestic connections is a welcome development and makes my life easier. What is the current status of YUL pre-board screening location? is it possible to segregate international and domestic operations?

[Cage]

Originally Posted by Acey

Given that LHR and FRA run 4 to 5 times the pax of Calgary, I'm not sure that statement has much meaning. A better metric would be the number of tows relative to the overall throughput of the airport, and even then it can't really be compared because somewhere like LHR with its huge percentage of heavy int'l ops would be running far fewer domestic swing ops.

I don't think the fact that many airplanes are towed at London Heathrow could ever be used as justification for only 4 swing gates being included at a terminal built from scratch in 2016.

The comparison to larger airports is also a reference to the specialized tow crews with expertise to make a large scale tow operation work. This type of specialization doesn't happen over night and takes years to develop efficient SOP.

The LHR tow ops are not done for swing gate reasons but more to keep gate utilization high. Aircraft are towed to remote stands even when doing 2 hour turns.

FRA uses a bus operation instead of swing gates. An LH flight from MAD will arrive at concourse B (intl) with all pax exiting via stairs to be bused to either international connections or arrival bag hall.

Take a look at WS YYZ ops. There are 40 gates at T3 and only 4 swing gates. The swing gates are all daisy chained further reducing the ability to operate 1 hour turns intl-dom and dom-intl. gates 17 and 18 have very few domestic departures and then only late a night. Gates 19 and 20 have 1-2 WS USA departures per day. If WS can make their YYZ ops work then YYC ops can also work.

Taking a look at AC YYZ ops, for operational purposes the domestic, transborder, and international fleets are mostly segregated with few dom-intl 1 hour swings. The swing gate ops are mostly conducted at night and involve USA arrival at gates 32/51/53/55 with a domestic departure. In the morning these same gates are needed for dedicated USA ops as AC has their major USA departure banks at 7am and again at 9am.

The reason for segregating USA and domestic operations is because of delays at USA airports would severely impact transcon ops.

On the intl-USA ops at the hammerhead; AC791/2 ops to LAX and winter ops to SFO require the use of widebody international gates on the hammerhead. In this instance, there is a CBSA connections desk in node F hammerhead for super efficient LAX-YYZ-Europe transfers.

[msmariner]

Originally Posted by Tobuz

All SEA-YYC flights on Alaska are now being operated by Horizon, their regional subsidiary.

(It was previously a mix of mainline AS and Horizon, with mainline flying B737s.)

Now, Horizon is operating the route three times daily:
- twice with an Embraer E75 regional jet
- once on a Q400 turboprop

That'd be the E75 that you saw.

Thank you. Seems Horizon has a similar paint scheme as Alaska now

[casper]

Originally Posted by Tobuz

Check out this brand new post on the "airlinemaps" blog on Tumblr. (As an airline nerd, an airport nerd, and a map geek ... I absolutely love this site.)

They're doing a series of posts now in honour off Air Canada's 80th birthday.

This one is a flashback to YYC, circa 2001 ... before today's concourse A existed, and when there were some CP-turned-AC gates right where A concourse check-in is today. I recall that the secure/sterile passenger lounge then pretty much went all the way to the 'curbside' wall. There was really no public concourse along where those gates were.

http://airlinemaps.tumblr.com/post/165113489687/air-canada-calgary-diagram-2001-an-air-canada/amp

Also note three (!) Maple Leaf Lounges here at YYC post CP acquisition. (Although it was small and a bit dumpy, I fondly recall the old CP transborder lounge -- which had previously been a Delta lounge. It was replaced by the concourse B Burger King and Tim Hortons not long after AC took over.)

The sad part, per the commentary about AC's status at YYC on that page:



I did notice on my AC flight this week that - even with a big, new airport terminal and a more complex connections process - there's still no map in AC's seat pocket book for YYC. Only YYZ, YVR and YUL. The route map still shows YYC as a hub, but the airport maps would tend to indicate otherwise.

I remember that old lounge near gate 21. It would open a few hours before the London and Frankfurt flights would depart. It was small, coming in from Saskatoon, I would arrive just as the lounge opens. The one AC employee would welcome you in and go make a pot of coffee. Not fancy machines back then. It was not fancy but pleasant and the staff were friendly.

I only ever used the trans-board lounge a few times connecting from Saskatoon to Chicago. It was not that memorable.

[FormerWingTipper]

Originally Posted by Acey

Apparently gate 76 can now swing into some sort of domestic operation. Don't know if that it's domestic-in + int'l-out, vice versa, or both. I won't be there for a while to see what they've changed and I'm just hearing bits and pieces, but this is a big deal. Given how the podiums are stationed at the end of the pier, I have to assume that 78/79 and possibly 74/75 have gained the same capability, so I'm guessing they've somehow isolated the whole D pier. More info as I found out exactly what's happened...

This basically saves Transat from taking a delay on their inbound damn near everyday of the summer, and saves AC's NRT from taking similar delays. This significantly increases the utility of gate 76 to what will effectively become the prime int'l swing gate.

No, it is Gates 74/75 that are new swing gates. The CAA installed some more doors in the Canada Customs corridor between Gates 72/73 and 74/75. This prevents international passengers arriving at Gates 70/71/72/73/74/75/76/78/79 to access Canada Customs when the corridor is configured for a domestic arrival/departure at Gate 74/75 as the corridor is blocked off for the domestic passengers walking across the Canada Customs corridor.

Say you arrive domestically, you go up the bridge at Gate 74/75, then down the fixed link, cross the corridor to go to Canada Customs, go up the fixed link at Gates 72/73 and take the low road out, or go up the next part of the fixed link at Gates 72/73 and take the high road out, depending if it is a low/high road arrival. Again, a terrible and long, confusing walk that in no way reflects a brand new terminal for what is supposed to be a world class airport. Up and down and across and down and up and then long walk and then either down/up just to get out. Yikes.

Similar for the departure, you board at the domestic C70-73 gates, then take either the high road or low road to the fixed link at 72/73, down the fixed link, cross the corridor for Canada Customs, then up the fixed link at 74/75, and then down the bridge.

Try being an airline agent taking a passenger in a wheelchair... my gosh, probably a 20-25min roundtrip for the agent. Can you say 'delay', especially if it is only one agent boarding?

[YYCguys]

Yup, I arrived domestically in the new terminal earlier this year and was quite confused on how to get out! And I am fairly familiar with YYC in general. But this configuration is very confusing for me, so imagine it for someone less familiar with airports! Yikes!

[thenoflyzone]

Originally Posted by Cage

I What is the current status of YUL pre-board screening location? is it possible to segregate international and domestic operations?

Currently, there is one screening location for both international and domestic wings. It is fairly large, though, something like 10 or 12 screening lanes (in front of gates 47, 48 and 49)

http://www.admtl.com/en/access (scroll down and click on "interactive plan")

Anything is possible. They can always build a wall and divide those lanes up to serve both wings independently.

Problem is, domestic traffic is increasing at YUL at a rapid pace as well, and the current domestic jetty is not enough to handle all the added traffic. They need to be able to offload some domestic flights to the international side. If a wall is built up, that won't be possible.

What's more important, gate flexibility, or TWoV. ADM will need to decide. Maybe they already have.

[Cage]

Originally Posted by Acey

Understood - I was misinformed; but WestJet did YEG-YYC-CUN (YEG 104 YYC 2312 CUN) on 78 this morning.

I'm therefore assuming that either a) the 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 roundabout procedure you just described also now applies to gates 78 and 79, or b) they are manually directing people out of the int'l hall as required for a gate 78 domestic arrival.

A domestic departure from the holdroom to either gate 74/75 is 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 to the extent that WestJet would probably rather tow the airplane. 78/79 would be even worse. They somehow have to find a way to segregate the entire D pier and swing the whole pier to a domestic op upstairs. Ain't gonna be cheap... but it would allow domestic ops off the very underutilized gate 76. Turn the existing domestic holdroom into a McDonald's play place or something.

I think I figured out what WS is doing with the CAA. WS wants the entire 70-78 gate concourse to have the ability to do dom -> intl quick turns, essentially for the 10-11am transborder & international departure bank. I don't see them having a need for the opposite intl -> dom that is beyond the current 70-73 gate operation.

Back in the old terminal days, WS had the ability to quick turn domestic arrivals off gates 21-24 by using a very narrow corridor that would cause traffic jams all the time.

My big question is why WS needs this additional capability? I don't see the operational need for any more than 4 mainline aircraft arriving from YEG/YXE/YQR/YWG with 50% plus international connection traffic. YYZ and YVR are excluded as they are O&D heavy at that time of day. Connection traffic through YYC would cannibalize the nonstop opportunities.

[FormerWingTipper]

Originally Posted by Cage

I think I figured out what WS is doing with the CAA. WS wants the entire 70-78 gate concourse to have the ability to do dom -> intl quick turns, essentially for the 10-11am transborder & international departure bank.

But how do you block off International Level Gates 70-79 for domestic departures from the International Level Gates 80-87?

[casper]

Over the past year I have made a couple of connections in Calgary but all except once was domestic. I don't remember they international terminal layout that well.

Wild idea, would doing something similar to terminal 3 in Toronto work.

Clouse down the security checkpoint into the international departures completely. Calgary originating International passenger pass through security at C concourse.

Build some movable glass walls so the international departure lounges can be:
- D80-87 or
- D72-87 or
- D70-87 depending on the needs at that time of the day.

You would need a guard checking boarding passes when going from domestic to international. The same way as Vancouver and Terminal 3 in Toronto.

In Vancouver where the division is between the domestic and international lounge is defined by a guy with a cart who checks boarding passes and the position of some glass doors.

I am not a YCC local so I don't know the new terminal that well. Would that solve the problem?

[Cage]

Originally Posted by FormerWingTipper

But how do you block off International Level Gates 70-79 for domestic departures from the International Level Gates 80-87?

I'm going on a blurry memory from late evening international arrivals after a long flight and days work.

For domestic arriving pax to gate 74/75/78; take the normal arrival route (lower route) as if going to CBSA primary inspection. At the intersection with gates 76/73/72/71/70, go upstream towards the west, continue towards gate 70 where you exit into the domestic corridor.

For passengers connecting international or transborder; immediately after exiting the jet bridges. take the ramp up to the departures hall. International pax stay in concourse D, transborder pax follow the signs to checkpoint E connections lane and USCBP.

The newly installed doors mentioned in a post above might be at CBSA primary inspection hall entrance. These doors would be closed to prevent wanderers and arrival pax from getting lost.