Hwy 99 Fraser River Tunnel (George Massey Replacement) | Proposed

[M00dy]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

In the case of a bridge, this may be more cut and dried, but just look at the process for the Convention Centre, or the BC Place roof replacement. I like both of those projects, but the budgets were a joke.

The way it theoretically works is that if the contractor screws something up, it's money out of their own pocket & doesn't affect the total (public) project budget.

If the owner chooses to change something/screwed something up/there are unforeseen conditions (typically contamination, geotechnical, impacts from permitting or utility/ROW owners) then it is on the client & therefore the public project budget.

I'm not too familiar with the Convention Centre or BC Place Roof, but I had referenced P3 & DB projects (which Massey was intended to be). That's one of the beauties of those is that you put a lot more risk on the contractor, so in theory you have more of a fixed price.

(Edit: or the preliminary budget numbers were intentionally or unintentionally low, so when the true costs hit the light of day it's a shocker)

[Stingray2004]

GMB all but cancelled today with the NDP's so-called "study" as I postulated previously. Kinda ironic considering that today Angus Reid came out with a new opinion poll of Metro Van residents on the question whether the GMT should be replaced by the proposed new bridge:

Support: 75%
Oppose: 25%

Ya never see support levels akin to that!

[M00dy]

Originally Posted by SFUVancouver

The Province just cancelled the George Massey Bridge procurement process.


http://vancouversun.com/news/politics/ndp-cancels-construction-on-george-massey-bridge-project

Wow. I can't say I'm surprised but it does suck to hear it confirmed.

[cganuelas1995]

Well, TransLink should implement permanent changes to the 401/403/404/C93 for the PM peak.

Those busses are always delayed at the same time because of the traffic.

[libtard]

All that work for nothing

[Metro-One]

Worst decision a provincial government has made in decades.

Such a waste.

Design work, done, pre loading, done, pre engineering work, done. Cancelled!

This project would have been entirely built within pre-existing land reserved for the highway (no loss the ALR like many misinformed believed), and the major interchanges would actually have had smaller footprints than the existing ones (also not known by the miss informed) and involved the best realistic transit solution possible for this corridor with a true rapid bus system / HOV system that involved direct ramps from the highway to Bridgeport Skytrain Station (also largely ignored / not know by those who were against net it). Then of course there was also the benefit of actually being able to ride / walk across this new crossing.

Fuck, seriously, fucking stupid.

It is also interesting how many I know who voted for the NDP are now coming out of the woodwork surprised and angry about this decision. They actually didn't know it was their plan to cancel this project. Really wish people would research before they vote. A similar thing is starting to happen regarding site C now as well.

Nearly all of the people against this project were also against the Highway 1 Port Mann Project. I am curious, now that that project is done, do you still desire to have the old Highway and bridge back? Do you wish to erase all the new highway 1 HOV / 555 bus infrastructure that was only possible to have with a full highway and bridge rebuild?

[flipper316]

Look on the bright side. Now highway maintenance will have another job after taking down the toll signs. They can take the construction starts in 2017 signs.

[excel]

Sad. NDP is sad. Rough year for BC all in all.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Worst decision a provincial government has made in decades.

Such a waste.

Design work, done, pre loading, done, pre engineering work, done. Cancelled!

This project would have been entirely built within pre-existing land reserved for the highway (no loss the ALR like many misinformed believed), and the major interchanges would actually have had smaller footprints than the existing ones (also not known by the miss informed) and involved the best realistic transit solution possible for this corridor with a true rapid bus system / HOV system that involved direct ramps from the highway to Bridgeport Skytrain Station (also largely ignored / not know by those who were against net it). Then of course there was also the benefit of actually being able to ride / walk across this new crossing.

Fuck, seriously, fucking stupid.

It is also interesting how many I know who voted for the NDP are now coming out of the woodwork surprised and angry about this decision. They actually didn't know it was their plan to cancel this project. Really wish people would research before they vote. A similar thing is starting to happen regarding site C now as well.

Nearly all of the people against this project were also against the Highway 1 Port Mann Project. I am curious, now that that project is done, do you still desire to have the old Highway and bridge back? Do you wish to erase all the new highway 1 HOV / 555 bus infrastructure that was only possible to have with a full highway and bridge rebuild?

The NDP didn't carry the ridings effected: Delta South, Surrey-White Rock or Surrey South. Thus proving the old political truism: to the victors go the spoils. The south of Fraser ridings who voted NDP got their tolls removed.

Given that every Metro mayor was against this project, it's easy to see why it was canned. The Mayor of Delta is not the most influential voice at the table.

[moosejaw]

Yeah im not really surprised either.
NDP removed tolls from a $3B Crossing and expect to fully fund another one?

Yes the facts are there plain as day but the nimbys like brody, moore, and robertson dont want to hear it.
They want a design thats less "intrusive" and appears to fit in their agenda. Eight or ten lane spans with triple deck flyover interchanges arent part of that scenario. Get ready for twining of the tunnel at the very best with maybe one lane added for general traffic each way. Twinning of the tunnel will cost more, will hamper emergency srevices, cause hazardous cargo to seek alternative routes and bicycles will still have to take a freaking shuttle to cross the fraser?

Nimbys are very good at getting what they want...by spreading lies and misinformation so called "fake news" (i will borrow that line Mr Trump thank you). It doesnt help that Delta's mayor Ms Jackson was hardly credible.

[retro_orange]

How many actually read and comprehended the article?? It's still happening, it just needs further review. Remember how it was rushed to get it started for the election... they could have saved the money but they didn't.

The Liberals knowingly wanted to use it as an election ploy. Right along the lines of 'Vote for us and it will legitimize the money we dumped on this rushed bridge beginning'. Same deal as site C.

The majority of the money already spent is on things such as land procurement which will be needed anyway for whatever finer tuned replacement shall come.

“We’re not going back to square one, we’re going back to a thorough consultation with the community,” said the minister.

The B.C. Liberal government announced the bridge in 2013, but faced immediate criticism for not consulting local mayors, some of whom thought the 10-lane project to replace four existing lanes was too big and would simply increase congestion in other parts of the Metro transportation network.

The mayors also had a different list of transportation priorities for which they wanted provincial money, including replacing the Pattullo Bridge, a subway along Vancouver’s Broadway corridor and rapid transit in Surrey.

Metro Vancouver board chair Greg Moore said he was happy with the NDP’s decision for a pause and review.

“It’s exactly what Metro Vancouver regional district called for,” he said. “We acknowledge there’s a traffic issue along that corridor and something needs to be done, but the scope of the 10-lane bridge was too big and they needed to work with local governments around the whole region, including Metro Vancouver, to find the appropriate solution.”

excerpts from article: http://vancouversun.com/news/politics/ndp-cancels-construction-on-george-massey-bridge-project

[moosejaw]

Originally Posted by retro_orange

The Liberals knowingly wanted to use it as an election ploy. Right along the lines of 'Vote for us and it will legitimize the money we dumped on this rushed bridge beginning'. Same deal as site C.

Rushed Bridge?
This has been planned for the last freaking five years? How long do you think it would take to not rush the planning of a bridge?

[retro_orange]

Originally Posted by moosejaw

Rushed Bridge?
This has been planned for the last freaking five years? How long do you think it would take to not rush the planning of a bridge?

So because they spent 5 years ignoring everyone they should be consulting, that makes it legitimate? No.

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by whatnext

The NDP didn't carry the ridings effected: Delta South, Surrey-White Rock or Surrey South. Thus proving the old political truism: to the victors go the spoils. The south of Fraser ridings who voted NDP got their tolls removed.

Given that every Metro mayor was against this project, it's easy to see why it was canned. The Mayor of Delta is not the most influential voice at the table.

The mayors of metro Vancouver being against a project does not hold much weight in appraising a projects value.

For example the mayors were against the entire highway 1 project (except for 1 or 2 municipalities on th south side of the river)

Same was true for the SFPR.

Same is true for nearly every port expansion project.

Heck, for decades the same was true for transit projects! (Burnaby being the worst for that, even against projects within their own borders such as the SFU gondola).

The mayors are why the Pattullo Bridge is now a decade or more behind (and will open as a watered down version when it is finally built).

The mayors wanted the Evergreen Line and the Canada Line to be at grade LRTs...

Look at what the mayors want for the rapid transit connection to Langley...

Also, Vision has not supported a single highway / bridge project that I can remember (I think they are being silent on the Pattullo because it is bundled with the Broadway Subway Line, which is actually one of the very few projects the mayors have correct).

So yeah, if it were up to the mayors over the last 20 years our port, road, and rail infrastructure would be far worse off than it is today. Our region has improved regarding infrastructure not because of the mayors, but in spite of them, and this is where a bold provincial government that builds projects that might not necessarily have the mayors support is better than one that just panders to them.

[Stingray2004]

Originally Posted by whatnext

The NDP didn't carry the ridings effected: Delta South, Surrey-White Rock or Surrey South. Thus proving the old political truism: to the victors go the spoils. The south of Fraser ridings who voted NDP got their tolls removed.

Given that every Metro mayor was against this project, it's easy to see why it was canned. The Mayor of Delta is not the most influential voice at the table.

Sorry, but that is both an ignorant and stupid comment to make. Firstly, a government governs for all... not hardcore NDP types. Moreover, the GreeNDP gov't is so unstable that it likely won't last past next spring.

Moreover, it's also obvious that ya are completely clueless on the commuter catchment area for the GMT - major traffic in-flows/off-flows include River Road/SFPR and Ladner Trunk Road (Hwy 10). The ridings thereto include marginally NDP-held Delta North and Surrey-Panorama. For starters.

The GreeNDP has caused such a mess with the MOTI/Translink files... Pattullo Bridge will never even proceed. Yep.

[Stingray2004]

For all intent and purposes the new GMB is dead under the GreeNDP. Even Keith Baldrey tonight on the 6 pm Global BC Newhour confirmed same. The GreeNDP is just window-dressing with "studying" the matter further. That was their familiar 1990's modus operandi - which means the matter is D-E-A-D.

However, as both the Vancouver Sun and Global BC News report tonight (as I have referenced up-thread), Angus Reid released the results of a new opinion poll today on the proposed new 10-lane bridge. Speaks volumes:

[SFUVancouver]

Quick thoughts (I'm at Trudeau's town hall and it's about to begin) about the cancellation/significant delay: it was a mistake by the Liberals to have rammed through the 10 lane bridge plan so that they could show work before the election. That was pure politics by a disintegrating government and it put the new government in a tight spot to either run with it or cancel it, despite its obvious need. I think that the bridge as proposed was going to be a financial disaster, as are the Port Mann and Golden Ears Bridges, but it is a necessary solution to the appalling, paralyzing congestion. It must be fixed and ASASP.

Cancelling and re-studying the problem will take time and money and may result in the same solution. It may not, though. The new solution may save a lot of money or put significant additional pressure on figuring out the business case of tolling, barring a region-wide tolling regime. If a better solution is found, then the money spent to date will have been lost but it may be made up in far greater savings. Continuing with a potentially flawed plan because money has been spent is a good example of the sunk cost fallacy.

Bottom line, cynically, is that I am so glad that I don't work anywhere near Steveston and No 5 road any longer. Hearing people here bemoan Kelowna's "awful" traffic makes me laugh. They would just drop dead trying to do the tunnel or Hwy 99 5 days a week. Unfortunately a lot of people are going to be stuck dealing with that for longer than necessary because of today's decision.

[moosejaw]

Its not about saving money as opposed to downplaying the size and appearance of a massive structure and its associated road improvements. Maybe its about getting funds for local pet projects such as pattulo and broadway line.

How much money could be saved? Certainly not a billion dollars. They are advising of twinning the tunnel which will be more money so its certainly not about cost as much as its about glorifying the single occupant vehicle.

The public has spoken and hopefully their voices will make it to the doorstep of the NDP govt and they will have to acknowledge. Hopefully this same public opinion will assist in removing idiots like Brodie and Robertson from public office.

[Metro-One]

Let's not do this, the Broadway Subway and Pattullo bridges are also very important projects that need to get off the ground. The Surrey L-line LRT is a pet project IMO, the Pattullo, Broadway Skytrain, GMB / highway 99 upgrade, and the rail link to Langley are not pet projects and should all proceed regardless of government.

The chances of finding a cheaper and or better solution to this bridge project is highly unlikely. As stated before it offered the most realistic solution for vehicles, shipping, and transit along this corridor.

The twinned tunnel idea will actually use more land, will have inferior jerry rigged interchanges (just due to the nature of a roadway being split among so many different crossings) and the existing tunnels will still need to be replaced within a couple decades (or less) after the new tunnel opens, meaning we have to do the project twice instead of once. Then there are the psychological factors of tunnels, their limitations regarding shipping hazardous materials, earthquake hazards (remember this is silt, not bed rock or even till), and the inferior experience of the cycling and pedestrian aspects.

So what then, I know, a new bridge! Hmm, we already have 3 lanes in a direction during rush hour, so building less than 3 lanes a direction would come off as a step backwards, and we want to have a real HOV system, wow, we are already up to 4 lanes a direction!

This is also a great opportunity to build a real rapid bus transit solution. Therefore we should have bus only ramps at key locations (say, Bridgeport!) and in situ transit exchanges (say, near Steveston and Delta) but of course to have all this built to safe and modern design standard such locations will need major ramps and other super structures, hmmm.

Oh my god, we are now back to exactly what we have! Almost as if this wasn't just pulled from some mayor's ass and was actually designed by professionals who know what they are doing.

[Pinion]

lol at calling the Broadway skytrain and Pattullo a local pet project. Maybe you should be a local before you post, moosejaw.

Originally Posted by whatnext

The NDP didn't carry the ridings effected: Delta South, Surrey-White Rock or Surrey South. Thus proving the old political truism: to the victors go the spoils. The south of Fraser ridings who voted NDP got their tolls removed.

Same thing happened with Lions Gate in the 90s. Wider bridge options were on the table and were the obvious choice but we got a refurb instead because we were solid Liberal at the time.