VIA Rail network developments

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by acottawa

If you only do the cheap upgrades (straight sections on level ground) and the train has to slow down for every curve, crossing, bridge, hill, etc. (the expensive stuff) then the train will have to slow down every few km. Who wants to ride that train?

You are exaggerating. Banking curves on new track isn't overly expensive. It is only when you get the really windy bits that it would be expensive to straighten out. There are some long stretches with only a few gradual curves. That is the low hanging fruit.

What are you basing this on? The Toronto-Havelock route hasn't been used for passenger service in 30 years (and it was used for passenger service it was very slow). There is no track between Havelock and Glen Tay (the track was ripped up decades ago and is currently used for a snowmobile trail).

First of all I was referring to the entire route, not just the new sections. Secondly, even on the parts that were torn up, many of the bridges still exist. Some may need to be replaced, but they might be able to use some of them (probably with some repairs).

The route from Glen Tay to Smiths Falls is the CP mainline and remember sharing freight lines is the problem the HFR is supposed to address.

True. I do know the CPR is under pressure to abandon large portions of their mainline from Toronto to Montreal. If those portions disappear, the others loose value. So far they have resisted, but that could change. This is just speculation on my part though.

The Smiths falls to Montreal portion currently runs way to slow for the kinds of speeds Via is promising.

As I said before, they aren't actually that far off on this segment, so your way to slow comment is an exaggeration.

Toronto-Havelock last saw passenger service in about 1990 (when Via cutbacks ended it). The train took 2 hours and 45 minutes.

Using ancient equipment which wasn't able to travel fast (no tilting technology).

Originally Posted by acottawa

From the Metrolinx report:

Now that is interesting. They would definitely want to remove the exception. Even then Class 3 certainly isn't all that great, but once again, for some sections it might be good enough (through residential areas for example).

You are probably right in that the travel times are optimistic and may be a long term goal, not something we see day 1. It will be interesting to see more details of VIA's plan.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by roger1818

As I said before, they aren't actually that far off on this segment, so your way to slow comment is an exaggeration.

Smiths Falls to Montreal takes about 3 hours now. They are promising Toronto-Montreal trains under 4 hours. Either they have to get from Toronto to Smiths Falls in under an hour or they have to make pretty significant upgrades to the Smiths Falls-Ottawa-Montreal route.

Originally Posted by roger1818

True. I do know the CPR is under pressure to abandon large portions of their mainline from Toronto to Montreal. If those portions disappear, the others loose value. So far they have resisted, but that could change. This is just speculation on my part though.

Under pressure from whom? CP has been trying to get out of its branch lines (which is why the Havelock sub might be available) but it can't see why they would want to abandon the mainline, that is the link between its network in Western Canada, Northern Ontario, Toronto Chicago, etc with Montreal, New York and Atlantic ports.

[lrt's friend]

If CP were to abandon the main line from Toronto to Montreal, wouldn't it make it that much more important for VIA to have its own route? How would VIA continue to offer service on the Lakeshore route with any decent reliability if all CP freight traffic was diverted to the CN route?

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

If CP were to abandon the main line from Toronto to Montreal, wouldn't it make it that much more important for VIA to have its own route? How would VIA continue to offer service on the Lakeshore route with any decent reliability if all CP freight traffic was diverted to the CN route?

If CP abandoned its mainline Via could just buy that. It would be a lot easier to implement HFR on an existing mainline than try to convert a 10 mph branch line and a snowmobile track for mainline rail service.

That being said, I have zero reason to believe CP is abandoning its mainline, which would cut their network in half.

[Mister F]

That section of CP mainline that the HFR line may have to run on is only about 24 km long. Double tracking this section would be easy and would dramatically reduce potential for conflicts between CP and Via trains. It would be a huge improvement over the current situation, where Via trains are subject to the whims of CN for almost the entire trip.

That being said, Via's map shows that section as part of the Via dedicated line. Maybe the plan is to build a parallel line on that section or to secure guaranteed use one one of the tracks in exchange for double tracking. Or maybe it's just a mapping error. Either way, that 24 km is hardly a deal breaker.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Mister F

That section of CP mainline that the HFR line may have to run on is only about 24 km long. Double tracking this section would be easy and would dramatically reduce potential for conflicts between CP and Via trains. It would be a huge improvement over the current situation, where Via trains are subject to the whims of CN for almost the entire trip.

That being said, Via's map shows that section as part of the Via dedicated line. Maybe the plan is to build a parallel line on that section or to secure guaranteed use one one of the tracks in exchange for double tracking. Or maybe it's just a mapping error. Either way, that 24 km is hardly a deal breaker.

You are talking about the track between Smiths Falls and Glen Tay. Correct?

[Mister F]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

You are talking about the track between Smiths Falls and Glen Tay. Correct?

Correct. It's wide enough for a second track and it looks like it had two tracks in the past (parts of it still do).

[Norman Bates]

Has anyone taken The Canadian from Toronto to Vancouver?

I'm thinking of doing it but am looking for some first hand experiences that could help inform my planning.

I've talked to a few people at VIA who have done the trip - but they can't seem to offer much in terms of advice. And VIA doesn't appear to employ anyone who specializes in booking it.

There's got to be a thread I could read on a forum somewhere. But I can't seem to find anything beyond 'subsidized' travel reviews.

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by Norman Bates

Has anyone taken The Canadian from Toronto to Vancouver?

I'm thinking of doing it but am looking for some first hand experiences that could help inform my planning.

I've talked to a few people at VIA who have done the trip - but they can't seem to offer much in terms of advice. And VIA doesn't appear to employ anyone who specializes in booking it.

There's got to be a thread I could read on a forum somewhere. But I can't seem to find anything beyond 'subsidized' travel reviews.

Yes I've done it many times. First of all, book a room, it's the only way you'll ever be able to sleep. The food is excellent. While most cars are refurbished so be sure to book a room in a refurbished one. If not you'll smell the 80s carpet for 5 days. What do you want to know specifically?

[GoTrans]

Originally Posted by Mister F

Correct. It's wide enough for a second track and it looks like it had two tracks in the past (parts of it still do).

It used to be double track the whole way from Glen Tay to Montreal.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Smiths Falls to Montreal takes about 3 hours now. They are promising Toronto-Montreal trains under 4 hours. Either they have to get from Toronto to Smiths Falls in under an hour or they have to make pretty significant upgrades to the Smiths Falls-Ottawa-Montreal route.

A bunch of things can be done to reduce that time.

• The long dwell times in Ottawa are largely due to low, narrow platforms. Construction is already in progress to fix this.
• Crossing the CPR Winchester subdivision often causes delays. HFR will run allong/parralel to it, removing this issue. It will also slightly shorten the route.
• Delays caused by sharing track between Coteau and Montreal. Dedicated track will remove this issue.
• The approach to Central Station is dreadfully slow. Fixing that somehow would most certainly be in the plans.
• Eastbound trains frequently have to turn around at the beginning of the route. Bi-directional trains will remove this requirement.

Each of these may only shave 5 or 10 minutes off of the travel time, but they all add up. I expect those promised travel times are for the fastest train, not an average.

Regardless, Montreal-Smiths Falls is a poor metric as (a) we don't know what VIA's proposed time for that routing is and (b) few trains on the current schedule actually travel that route to give us a good idea of what the minimum (or even average) travel time is. However, for Ottawa Montreal they are promising 1:20 minutes where as the fastest train currently is 1:53 (train 34), so they only need to shave 33 minutes off of the route. As I said, quite feasible.

Under pressure from whom? CP has been trying to get out of its branch lines (which is why the Havelock sub might be available) but it can't see why they would want to abandon the mainline, that is the link between its network in Western Canada, Northern Ontario, Toronto Chicago, etc with Montreal, New York and Atlantic ports.

I can't find the link, but I did read that the city of Bellville for one wants CP to use the CN line there at least. If they can share track there, why not along the entire line (or use the sections of each's lines that best meet their combined needs).

I also know Montreal is wanting both CN and CP to move the Cote Saint-Luc rail yards off of the island, and according to this article, it would be profitable to do so. That wouldn't remove the need for a main line, but it could certainly make lots of track available to VIA on and to the island of Montreal as the two railways wouldn't need a combined, parallel quadruple track anymore.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by roger1818

I can't find the link, but I did read that the city of Bellville for one wants CP to use the CN line there at least. If they can share track there, why not along the entire line (or use the sections of each's lines that best meet their combined needs).

I also know Montreal is wanting both CN and CP to move the Cote Saint-Luc rail yards off of the island, and according to this article, it would be profitable to do so. That wouldn't remove the need for a main line, but it could certainly make lots of track available to VIA on and to the island of Montreal as the two railways wouldn't need a combined, parallel quadruple track anymore.

Cities can want whatever they want. They have no jurisdiction over railways. Unless CP wants to abandon its mainline or the federal government wants to get involved then what cities think doesn't matter.

Ultimately, I think the best solution would be for CN and CP to merge their freight operations between Toronto and Montreal on one line and let Via use the other, which would be way less complicated then the dog's breakfast route that via is currently proposing. This is one of the reasons why I don't like the low-balling of cost estimates, because suppresses more practical solutions (such as bribing CN/CP).

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Cities can want whatever they want. They have no jurisdiction over railways. Unless CP wants to abandon its mainline or the federal government wants to get involved then what cities think doesn't matter.

Ultimately, I think the best solution would be for CN and CP to merge their freight operations between Toronto and Montreal on one line and let Via use the other, which would be way less complicated then the dog's breakfast route that via is currently proposing. This is one of the reasons why I don't like the low-balling of cost estimates, because suppresses more practical solutions (such as bribing CN/CP).

Is merging Montreal-Toronto freight operations really practical? Is there a lot of unused capacity? The fact that VIA cannot run efficiently on the Lakeshore route suggests not.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Is merging Montreal-Toronto freight operations really practical? Is there a lot of unused capacity? The fact that VIA cannot run efficiently on the Lakeshore route suggests not.

I don't know, but it would be interesting to see a cost comparison between whatever upgrades are necessary for the increased capacity (plus whatever fee CN/CP would want to make the switch) and a realistic cost estimate of what Via is proposing.

[Norman Bates]

Originally Posted by d_jeffrey

Yes I've done it many times. First of all, book a room, it's the only way you'll ever be able to sleep. The food is excellent. While most cars are refurbished so be sure to book a room in a refurbished one. If not you'll smell the 80s carpet for 5 days. What do you want to know specifically?

Yes, I will be in one of the renovated rooms. As I understand it, the one accessible room is in the dome car.

Do you have any tips to offer in terms of successfully undergoing the trip and then flying back home?

I'm a little intimidated by no wifi on the train. Is there anything to do to pass the time besides staring out the window?

The longest I ever went on the train is the Amtrak to and from MTL and NYC. I found that Amtrak ride a big step down from the corridor where I always go VIA1.

I've done the entire corridor from Windsor to Quebec City, and am going to Quebec City tomorrow morning. But it's always VIA1 (I dislike the current business class apellative).

I've flown countless times between YOW and YWG, YEG, YYC and YVR. I've also driven it the American and Canadian routes several times. But never done the train. Sort of a bucket list kind of thing.

[Aylmer]

Originally Posted by Norman Bates

Yes, I will be in one of the renovated rooms. As I understand it, the one accessible room is in the dome car.

Do you have any tips to offer in terms of successfully undergoing the trip and then flying back home?

I'm a little intimidated by no wifi on the train. Is there anything to do to pass the time besides staring out the window?

.

I did it a few months ago. I was similarly worried about having nothing to do, but I didn't read or watch any of the books or films I had brought with me. Really.

I was in economy (aka Cattle) class and, though sleeping is nigh impossible in those seats, the proximity with other people you get there makes it very easy to get to know people. The time in the train is basically chatting, playing games, chatting, eating (the food is DELICIOUS), chatting, looking out the window, chatting, napping, chatting.

Just don't delay talking to people. It's basically the point of the trip. And head to the economy observation car - it's usually livelier.

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by Norman Bates

Yes, I will be in one of the renovated rooms. As I understand it, the one accessible room is in the dome car.

Good, it's essential. The hallways are really narrow and the train is loooong, especially from the dome car though.

Do you have any tips to offer in terms of successfully undergoing the trip and then flying back home?

I usually started from Vancouver (flying in the same day) and leaving the same day. It's better to start from Toronto where you'll enjoy the Rockies during the day and not at night. If you start from Toronto I suggest taking an hotel room as you'll want to wash up and relax from the trip. Plus the train is almost always late and you wouldn't want to risk missing your flight.

I'm a little intimidated by no wifi on the train. Is there anything to do to pass the time besides staring out the window?

Not only no Wi-Fi but no LTE for most of it. I take the train nearly daily and the Canadian is not the same experience at all. The average crowd age is about 65. Most of them is a lifelong dream to see Canada in it's entirety. Go sit in the lounge cars and talk to people, that's what the trip is about.

The longest I ever went on the train is the Amtrak to and from MTL and NYC. I found that Amtrak ride a big step down from the corridor where I always go VIA1.

Food is really good on the Canadian, that is you always have the next meal to look for. Just eating takes about 4 hours of your train ride daily. There are also entertainers on some nights.

I've done the entire corridor from Windsor to Quebec City, and am going to Quebec City tomorrow morning. But it's always VIA1 (I dislike the current business class apellative).

Whatever you call it, I don't do economy.

I've flown countless times between YOW and YWG, YEG, YYC and YVR. I've also driven it the American and Canadian routes several times. But never done the train. Sort of a bucket list kind of thing.

For me taking the train is the only time I thoroughly relax, since I'm forced to disconnect from anything techological and force to reconnect with people. I accumulate so many points during a year, next time I will try their new luxury sleeper car.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

I did it a few months ago. I was similarly worried about having nothing to do, but I didn't read or watch any of the books or films I had brought with me. Really.

We did it about 15 years ago (Mission to Toronto) when my oldest was a baby and she slept, well, like a baby (not typical for her). Even my wife who isn't a rail fan like me couldn't believe how the time just flew by. The scenery was mesmerizing, the food was amazing and the people were friendly.

Originally Posted by d_jeffrey

It's better to start from Toronto where you'll enjoy the Rockies during the day and not at night.

I'm not sure I agree with that advice. Either way you will sleep through the Cascades, but eastbound you will hit Clearwater (near the western edge of the Rockies) just before 9:00am (definitely daylight, even in winter) whereas westbound you are scheduled to arrive at 8:44pm, which even today is after sunset. That is assuming the train is on time. Westbound you will be 3 days into the trip, and if it is late, things will only get worse.

If you want to see the mountains (both Cascades and Rockies) in daylight, your best option is the Rocky Mountaineer.

If you start from Toronto I suggest taking an hotel room as you'll want to wash up and relax from the trip. Plus the train is almost always late and you wouldn't want to risk missing your flight.

I totally agree. I would make sure you have at least 24 hours before your flight as the train is notoriously late. It is so notorious that VIA extended the trip from 3 days to 4 and it still is often (usually?) late. It will also give you some time to visit Vancouver.

[Norman Bates]

With regards to The Canadian, does anyone have on any thoughts on getting off and visiting some of the cities along the way?

I have family in Winnipeg and Edmonton - and haven't been to Jasper in more than 25 years. It would seem an opportunity to do things like that. I'm just not sure if it would interrupt the cadence of the voyage and alter The Canadian experience or otherwise complicate the logistics.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Norman Bates

With regards to The Canadian, does anyone have on any thoughts on getting off and visiting some of the cities along the way?

I have family in Winnipeg and Edmonton - and haven't been to Jasper in more than 25 years. It would seem an opportunity to do things like that. I'm just not sure if it would interrupt the cadence of the voyage and alter The Canadian experience or otherwise complicate the logistics.

I did Toronto to Vancouver a couple of years ago and stopped for a few days in Winnipeg. I hadn't been there for thirty years and found the stop well worth it. No complications that I noticed - the entire trip was terrific!