Calgary International Airport II

[TheGreatestX]

Originally Posted by Cage

Further, if you add up YEG, YOW, YHM and YWG (the 5th to 8th largest markets) the number of pax does not equal YYC.

Huh?

YYC: 15.6m

YEG: 7.5m
YOW: 4.7m
YWG: 4.0m
Total without YHM: 16.2m

[Cage]

Originally Posted by TheGreatestX

Huh?

YYC: 15.6m

YEG: 7.5m
YOW: 4.7m
YWG: 4.0m
Total without YHM: 16.2m

I lifted the stat from Canadian Chamber of Commerce report. IIRC there were number of adjustments for non commercial aviation traffic. So for YEG the 500k non terminal traffic got pulled out plus the terminal FLIFO ( fly in, fly out) operated by Cdn North. All of YEG, YOW, YHX, and YWG had some form of noncommercial pax traffic that had to be adjusted out. Even then the difference was less than 100,000 pax.

[Bokimon]

Another choice for a ULCC destination in Alberta that is semi close to Calgary. What about Lethbridge?? They have enough capacity to potentially support a 737, a decent terminal and adequate infrastructure while the drive from here is only 2hrs.
If a Newleaf/Flair did some BC or Ontario runs from YQL, let alone US and sun destinations for ultra cheap, I'd be down using that airport in a heartbeat.
It would make up for not having to drive down to Montana to hop on an Allegiant flight.
Though Great Falls Airport recently had been promoting themselves to Calgarians, according to my fb feed (those advertised pages)

[MalcolmTucker]

[del]

[Cage]

Originally Posted by Bokimon

Another choice for a ULCC destination in Alberta that is semi close to Calgary. What about Lethbridge?? They have enough capacity to potentially support a 737, a decent terminal and adequate infrastructure while the drive from here is only 2hrs.
If a Newleaf/Flair did some BC or Ontario runs from YQL, let alone US and sun destinations for ultra cheap, I'd be down using that airport in a heartbeat.
It would make up for not having to drive down to Montana to hop on an Allegiant flight.
Though Great Falls Airport recently had been promoting themselves to Calgarians, according to my fb feed (those advertised pages)

Calgary to YQL is twice the distance as Hahn to Frankfurt or Skavsta to Stockholm. The ULCC only European airports are usually only 100km away from their major cities.

There is adequate enough terminal capacity for a ULCC to operate out of YYC. Also costs are not much different between YYC and YQL. More importantly, the cost differential between YYC and YQL does not male up the lost revenue difference between the two airports. Canadian are not willing to accept major inconvenience for a small ticket price savings, the differential must be north of $200.

[CrossedTheTracks]

Originally Posted by Bokimon

Another choice for a ULCC destination in Alberta that is semi close to Calgary. What about Lethbridge?? They have enough capacity to potentially support a 737, a decent terminal and adequate infrastructure while the drive from here is only 2hrs.

From my neck of the woods in NW Calgary... 2.5 hours. By cosmic coincidence, both YQL and YEG are 272 km from my house. It would have to have some mighty savings for me to drive 2.5 hours! I'm skeptical.

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

Red Deer is investigating a new terminal for that same reason iirc.

Sounds slightly more realistic; at least Red Deer is surrounded by huge population within 1.5 hour drive. Would sure seem weird to drive by YEG/YYC on the way to Red Deer though!

[PPAR]

Originally Posted by Cage

Calgary to YQL is twice the distance as Hahn to Frankfurt or Skavsta to Stockholm. The ULCC only European airports are usually only 100km away from their major cities.

I have recently been doing some research on a holiday in Spain. The cost of intra-European flights is unbelievable. Barcelona to Seville (1.5 hour flight between similar sized markets to YYC and YVR) is $50 CAD on the ULCC, and $89 CAD on the legacy carriers. I have to wonder how the cost structure is so different there. This flight is very similar to YYC YVR which pretty consistently comes in around $200.

[Cage]

Originally Posted by PPAR

I have recently been doing some research on a holiday in Spain. The cost of intra-European flights is unbelievable. Barcelona to Seville (1.5 hour flight between similar sized markets to YYC and YVR) is $50 CAD on the ULCC, and $89 CAD on the legacy carriers. I have to wonder how the cost structure is so different there. This flight is very similar to YYC YVR which pretty consistently comes in around $200.

The base fare is 48 (Euro), the bags are 30 at 15kg and 50 at 20kg (hint most checked bags are atleast 15-20kg), priority boarding (which is really a fee for carryon bag) is 12, seat selection is 15.

Basically the air fare in Europe is super cheap if you travel alone, don't care where you sit, and only take carryon with less than 10kg weight (contents at 6kg and bag at 4kg empty).

The real money for Europe ULCC is when the plane departs or arrives at a secondary airport. The airline gets a cut of the ground transportation bus. The airline also gets to charge up the wazoo for traditional checkin and the bags being over weight by even a 0.5kg.

[outoftheice]

Originally Posted by Acey

I doubt YQL could support even a 736. That's something a leap... maybe first we ought to talk about something resembling consistent service on a 50 seater?

I'm fairly certain Westjet did flights from YQL back around 2006-2008ish but I can't find any reference to it online. Maybe I'm just getting old and senile but I have memories of seeing Westjet aircraft on the ramp loading passengers back around then for a handful of flights. Either way, I agree that YQL can't support much more than the 1900 service it sees now anyways.

[Bokimon]

On the condition that if the bridge matures more as a city economically in a few more years to at least warrant a seasonal or some limited frequency service from a ULCC, it would be just awesome. An alternate link to BC or Ontario for much less than what it costs to fly from YYC, I wouldn't mind the drive. Infact I am considering going up to YEG to take a newleaf/flair flight to YHM this fall and the savings on that trip is enough to make the Red Arrow bus ride worth it.

Other cities are indeed lucky to have their so called secondary airports within a shorter driving distance, it's too bad that YBW will never be a destination for any future airlines so as long as YYCAA are the ones running the show.
What likely hood is there that YYC will actually get an ULCC someday and is brave enough to take on the big two resident carriers at our airport? Unless we already do in the form of Enerjet who have been based for a while.

[PPAR]

Originally Posted by Cage

The base fare is 48 (Euro), the bags are 30 at 15kg and 50 at 20kg (hint most checked bags are atleast 15-20kg), priority boarding (which is really a fee for carryon bag) is 12, seat selection is 15.

Basically the air fare in Europe is super cheap if you travel alone, don't care where you sit, and only take carryon with less than 10kg weight (contents at 6kg and bag at 4kg empty).

The real money for Europe ULCC is when the plane departs or arrives at a secondary airport. The airline gets a cut of the ground transportation bus. The airline also gets to charge up the wazoo for traditional checkin and the bags being over weight by even a 0.5kg.

Thanks- you have convinced me to avoid the ULCC. But Iberia and BA is still only $89 on these routes. While by no means an expert, I have a suspicion that AIF, Nav Can fees etc are the responsible elements for much of the high cost of air travel here.

[casper]

Originally Posted by PPAR

Thanks- you have convinced me to avoid the ULCC. But Iberia and BA is still only $89 on these routes. While by no means an expert, I have a suspicion that AIF, Nav Can fees etc are the responsible elements for much of the high cost of air travel here.

If you compare a YYC to YXE flight you can some times get something a flight for $130-$150 on AC. I have seen it as low as $115 on AC. Pretty close to the same ball park,

[ST1]

Originally Posted by PPAR

I have recently been doing some research on a holiday in Spain. The cost of intra-European flights is unbelievable. Barcelona to Seville (1.5 hour flight between similar sized markets to YYC and YVR) is $50 CAD on the ULCC, and $89 CAD on the legacy carriers. I have to wonder how the cost structure is so different there. This flight is very similar to YYC YVR which pretty consistently comes in around $200.

Originally Posted by Cage

The base fare is 48 (Euro), the bags are 30 at 15kg and 50 at 20kg (hint most checked bags are atleast 15-20kg), priority boarding (which is really a fee for carryon bag) is 12, seat selection is 15.

Basically the air fare in Europe is super cheap if you travel alone, don't care where you sit, and only take carryon with less than 10kg weight (contents at 6kg and bag at 4kg empty).

The real money for Europe ULCC is when the plane departs or arrives at a secondary airport. The airline gets a cut of the ground transportation bus. The airline also gets to charge up the wazoo for traditional checkin and the bags being over weight by even a 0.5kg.

Those secondary airports are a pain in the ass. In many cases it's not worth that extra savings, trust me.

[thenoflyzone]

Originally Posted by PPAR

Thanks- you have convinced me to avoid the ULCC. But Iberia and BA is still only $89 on these routes. While by no means an expert, I have a suspicion that AIF, Nav Can fees etc are the responsible elements for much of the high cost of air travel here.

AIF partly to blame, NavCan, no.

NavCan revenues per IFR flight hour is among the lowest in the developed world, and lower than almost all the European nations. They recently lowered (yet again) their fees.

Productivity of Canadian controllers is the highest in the world (IFR hour per controller), even higher than the FAA.

(Source: CANSO)

AIF alone isn't the main reason why cheap fares don't exist in Canada. Lack of competition is the main reason. Vast country and small/fragmented population is another. Europe doesn't have those challenges. Over there, airlines are a plenty, and they can serve 740 million people !

We can't be comparing our airline market to that of Europe.

It also doesn't help that we have an airport like Pearson, which is the most expensive airport to land in the world. I'm sure YVR and YUL aren't cheap either. I don't blame the airport authorities. The amount of money they pay the government in rent every year is ridiculous. It's only normal that they forward that cost to the airlines, which in turn forwards it to the passenger.

You can't really blame anyone, for the reasons mentioned above, but if you had to, blame the government; not the airports, airlines or NavCan.

Margins in this business are extremely thin. Look at AC, Q1 2017 passenger revenues in excess of $3 billion, and yet earnings before interest and taxes were only $342 million. Add all the minuses, and they had a net loss of $37 million.

$3 billion, and they didn't make a cent in Q1 this year.......

[tmjr]

Thought this might be of interest:

More than half UK international airports lack free drinking water fountains [The Guardian]

More than half of the UK’s international airports do not have free drinking water fountains installed in their departure lounges, a leading consumer website has revealed.

As a result, thirsty travellers are being left to buy expensive bottled water from airside retailers or forced to ask for water at bars and restaurants, according to MoneySavingExpert.com (MSE).
...
The website is now calling on the bosses of these airports – which include Cardiff, London City, London Southend, Liverpool John Lennon and Newcastle – to introduce this “basic” but important facility.

[outoftheice]

I know there's been a lot of discussion about the lack of water fountains at YYC but it doesn't surprise me one bit that this is also common in the UK. The majority of airports in the UK are privately owned. Having spent the better part of a decade working out of airports in the UK I can say that with the exception of Heathrow and possibly Gatwick these privately run airports limit their investment in any infrastructure that will not generate revenue for the airport to the detriment of the travelling public.

Canadians complain about high airport improvement fees but I don't think people recognize just how lucky we are in terms of the quality of our airport terminal infrastructure across the country as non-profit airport authorities offer the best of both worlds. The design criticisms of the ITF here in Calgary show what happens when one of these non-profit airport authorities flirt with design principles embraced by privately run airports from around the world. Sadly it appears the Trudeau government seems to have its heart set on privatizing Canada's airport for a quick lump-sum payment. I hope that they will be convinced to change their minds on this file but if they don't Calgarians will be fortunate that the construction of the ITF and the renovation of the existing terminal occurred prior to this happening.

[Tobuz]

It's been almost two weeks since Frontier announced that they plan to start serving YYC . . . yet still, absolutely no word from the folks at YYC.

Just crickets.

(Meanwhile, they did put out PR about things like WS's seasonal, infrequent Belize service and the charter service to the DeBeers diamond mine.)

Really, really odd.

But somehow the local media (CTV Calgary) finally managed to pick up on it. Here's the story as of Saturday July 29:

http://www.ctvnews.ca/business/cheap-air...-frontier-adds-calgary-flights-1.3524985

[Johnny Aussie]

Originally Posted by Tobuz

But somehow the local media (CTV Calgary) finally managed to pick up on it. Here's the story as of Saturday July 29[/URL]

Ummm you sure that's CTV Calgary? Didn't realise the downtown skyline had shrunk so much!

[Tobuz]

Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie

Ummm you sure that's CTV Calgary? Didn't realise the downtown skyline had shrunk so much!

Oops! I don't usually pay any attention to local TV news since they tend to be 'bingo callers' reading a list of the day's car crashes ... so I didn't notice they weren't Calgary journalists, nor did I pay attention to the set in the background!

But, yep, you're right! It was a news story out of CTV Edmonton ... not Calgary!

[boeing767300]

Yes very informative report as I was not aware that Frontier were still operating B-737-200s LOL. Meanwhile previous flights were operated by Horizon Air CRJ-700 painted in Frontier livery.