VIA Rail network developments

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by phil235

Frequency may improve, but significant travel time improvements are unlikely. The majority of the ION system consists of on-street tracks.

The priorities in Waterloo region are extending LRT to Cambridge (i.e. away from the transit hub), and getting more direct east-west bus lines that feed into ION. There isn't much prospect that those priorities will improve travel times for trips integrated with HSR (with the possible exception of an express bus route down Victoria St.).

Time will tell on this but you are clearly correct that ION travel times will not improve significantly. My hope is that one or two other bus routes will be routed into the HSR station to allow more of the population direct access without a cumbersome local transfer.

[Mister F]

Originally Posted by acottawa

GO interfaces with various park and ride lots along the line (so it doesn't matter as much if local transit isn't particularly good yet) and has several transfer points with the TTC (notably at Eglinton and Bloor, but also with various suburban services in Brampton).

In contrast, HSR offers a downtown to downtown service (plus the airport) which makes driving/parking more difficult/expensive and therefore creates more reliance on public transit (which I have already discussed) and requires passengers to double back (from Union Station) or transfer to GO to get to the Bloor, Eglinton, and suburban services.

So basically you're describing every intercity rail service that doesn't stop at commuter train stations. So what? If someone's closest station is served by GO trains but not high speed trains then they just get on a GO train as they do now. No access points are cut off and no higher travel times are created whatsover. In fact, since the GO trains will be much more frequent and in all likelihood faster than they are now, it'll be a travel time decrease.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Time will tell on this but you are clearly correct that ION travel times will not improve significantly. My hope is that one or two other bus routes will be routed into the HSR station to allow more of the population direct access without a cumbersome local transfer.

That's a possibility, as there should be more routes going to the transit hub once the downtown terminal is gone.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Mister F

So basically you're describing every intercity rail service that doesn't stop at commuter train stations. So what? If someone's closest station is served by GO trains but not high speed trains then they just get on a GO train as they do now. No access points are cut off and no higher travel times are created whatsover. In fact, since the GO trains will be much more frequent and in all likelihood faster than they are now, it'll be a travel time decrease.

Because Collenette is predicting absolutely massive passenger numbers (10 million), which is almost triple what the entire via network carries, and only slightly less than Amtrak's entire service to penn station at 10.4 million (high speed, regional, and long distance). 10.4 million is also what the Eurostar carries between Europe's two largest cities (where driving is not an option). To get those kinds of numbers there has to be an almost complete modal shift, which means you can't just be running a niche service (which is what most short-haul intercity services offer).

[Mister F]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Because Collenette is predicting absolutely massive passenger numbers (10 million), which is almost triple what the entire via network carries, and only slightly less than Amtrak's entire service to penn station at 10.4 million (high speed, regional, and long distance). 10.4 million is also what the Eurostar carries between Europe's two largest cities (where driving is not an option). To get those kinds of numbers there has to be an almost complete modal shift, which means you can't just be running a niche service (which is what most short-haul intercity services offer).

Whatever the merits of the study's ridership estimates, none of what you said contradicts my point.

[PHrenetic]

Good Day...

Globe and Mail article on VIA HFR .....

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/pol...s-on-via-rail-expansion/article35538002/

The opening : Quote :

Transport Canada is reviewing the results of five private studies as the federal government weighs whether to support Via Rail Canada Inc.’s multibillion-dollar expansion plans.

The federal Crown corporation presented a business case for what it calls high-frequency rail to Transport Minister Marc Garneau in December that outlines a $4-billion plan to secure exclusive right-of-way for Via trains in the Montreal-Ottawa-Toronto corridor.

The project includes replacing Via’s aging fleet of 160 cars and 40 locomotives.

... ... ... ...

unQuote.

EnJoy!

[waterloowarrior]

Here is a map from a June 29, 2017 VIA meeting with Frontenac County
https://frontenac.civicweb.net/FileStorage/370C6E9D99FA4F20AB75E8AEF77D3C3C-CAO Monthly Report July 2017 tj kjpfinal.pdf

[c_speed3108]

Originally Posted by waterloowarrior

Here is a map from a June 29, 2017 VIA meeting with Frontenac County
https://frontenac.civicweb.net/FileStorage/370C6E9D99FA4F20AB75E8AEF77D3C3C-CAO Monthly Report July 2017 tj kjpfinal.pdf

Very interesting.

I hope they have sorted out some way to get through Smith Falls considerably faster than the current "yard" speed limits allow.

I also wonder the wisdom of building stations in tiny places like Sharbot lake

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by c_speed3108

I hope they have sorted out some way to get through Smith Falls considerably faster than the current "yard" speed limits allow

The HFR route would bypass the yard to the north. They would likely have to move the station though, again.

I also wonder the wisdom of building stations in tiny places like Sharbot lake

It is the closest station to Kingston on the HFR route.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by roger1818

The HFR route would bypass the yard to the north. They would likely have to move the station though, again.



It is the closest station to Kingston on the HFR route.

What's the relevance? There will still be Kingston-Ottawa service via Smith Falls, no?

[phil235]

They are proposing a station in Tweed? Have they been to Tweed?

I will say that this routing would do wonders for growth in Peterborough, which has been stagnant for years. They sure do bypass a lot of population though.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by phil235

They are proposing a station in Tweed? Have they been to Tweed?

I will say that this routing would do wonders for growth in Peterborough, which has been stagnant for years. They sure do bypass a lot of population though.

What's the anticipated travel time between Peterborough and Toronto/Union?

[c_speed3108]

Originally Posted by roger1818

The HFR route would bypass the yard to the north. They would likely have to move the station though, again.

Ah correct. I would have figured that out if I bothered to look at the tracks in that area.


It is interesting that Perth is not mentioned. My understanding was the mayor there was interesting in rebuilding a replica of the historic station etc... It might be a busier stop than Sharbot Lake...although it would be close to Smith Falls.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by c_speed3108

Ah correct. I would have figured that out if I bothered to look at the tracks in that area.


It is interesting that Perth is not mentioned. My understanding was the mayor there was interesting in rebuilding a replica of the historic station etc... It might be a busier stop than Sharbot Lake...although it would be close to Smith Falls.

It's about 20km, compared to about 12km between Port Hope and Coburg. Perhaps not all trains need to stop at both (or, in some cases, at either).

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by phil235

They are proposing a station in Tweed? Have they been to Tweed?

I will say that this routing would do wonders for growth in Peterborough, which has been stagnant for years. They sure do bypass a lot of population though.

I think the idea for a station at Tweed is to allow riders to access HFR from the greater Napanee-Belleville-Trenton area.

The whole purpose of this is to speed up service to Ottawa and Montreal to make it more competitive with other modes of transport. This is the key to increasing ridership substantially.

There will still be service on the Lakeshore route through the more populated areas.

VIA (and all of us) have noticed that the Ottawa-Toronto route is reaching that sweet point where it has become competitive with airline and private vehicle travel, however, it is only scratching the surface. This is why the Ottawa-Toronto route is now the most popular route on the VIA network. If service is faster than car travel, then the potential is great. It is also important to speed up service to Montreal in order to reach that sweet point when people will start thinking of the train instead of the plane.

I expect that this route will also allow for the re-introduction of Peterborough commuter service, which already has GO bus service.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by c_speed3108

Ah correct. I would have figured that out if I bothered to look at the tracks in that area.


It is interesting that Perth is not mentioned. My understanding was the mayor there was interesting in rebuilding a replica of the historic station etc... It might be a busier stop than Sharbot Lake...although it would be close to Smith Falls.

There is the potential for Perth to become an exurb of Ottawa if a station is built there. With it already being a tourist town, there is the potential for it being a summer draw for rail passengers provided the station is not located too far from the centre of the town.

[Horus]

Originally Posted by phil235

They are proposing a station in Tweed? Have they been to Tweed?

I will say that this routing would do wonders for growth in Peterborough, which has been stagnant for years. They sure do bypass a lot of population though.

They can now attract trainloads of people to the Tweed Stampede!

[Dado]

Originally Posted by c_speed3108

Ah correct. I would have figured that out if I bothered to look at the tracks in that area.


It is interesting that Perth is not mentioned. My understanding was the mayor there was interesting in rebuilding a replica of the historic station etc... It might be a busier stop than Sharbot Lake...although it would be close to Smith Falls.

Considering that it would be difficult to build a single VIA station anywhere that's actually near to Smiths Falls to serve both the Peterborough and Brockville routes given the alignments of the various tracks and how they would have to connect, I wonder if they ought not to consider skipping out Smiths Falls altogether for the Peterborough route and going via Carleton Place instead. Such a route would not only capture whatever ridership is available in Carleton Place (in either direction) but also make using the train from Kanata/Stittsville to Toronto more attractive.

In Ottawa, the Beachburg Sub through Nepean is now effectively unused. The Carleton Place Sub would require some NIMBY-mitigation measures through Kanata (trenching would probably do) and Stittsville (probably more trenching). A station could be placed in Stittsville, or even in the area between it and Kanata wherever it is that Ottawa imagines its future BRT is going to run. The MTO managed to make a hash of things with Hwy 7, so best probably to swing the track south of Hwy 7 from the Ashton Station Rd interchange onwards (as well as south of the sprawly 🞵🞵🞵🞵 off McNeely Ave in Carleton Place), with a station built somewhere near where it would cross Hwy 15. From there it can make use of a few kilometres of the old Chalk River Sub until about 9th Line Road whereupon a new alignment south of Lake Mississippi would be required to bring it to Perth. The track could enter Perth just north of County Rd 10, keeping it on the north side of the CPR tracks but always south of Hwy 7.

[lrt's friend]

Wow! That sounds pretty complicated (and expensive) when VIA has already invested quite a bit in the track between Ottawa and Smiths Falls and I imagine that the track between Smiths Falls and Perth must be in pretty good condition, being the CPR mainline.

[lrt's friend]

It is interesting that a new station is planned for Dorion. Are they trying to attract local commuter traffic traveling into Montreal?