Stadiums and Arenas of Canada part 2

[wave46]

Originally Posted by SaskScraper

NMS got zero Federal Government funds.. you spelled Mosaic wrong btw..

The feds were stupid to contribute to Skydome. As was the province of Ontario and Metro Toronto.

The province of Saskatchewan and city of Regina put funds into NMS. I don't really care where funding comes from, as long as it's not taxpayers. The role of government should be providing essential services, not providing a subsidized venue for pro sports. End of story. I don't care how fancy the venue, how magnificent the team.

Forgive my spelling error.

[Berklon]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

Saying that Toronto can't build a stadium half as nice as either of those two is ridiculous. It's simply not a priority.

Agreed.

Toronto CAN build a new jaw-dropping football stadium that can rival some of the best NFL stadiums, but it would be an obvious waste of money. It's hard enough to justify football stadiums as it is when it gets very little use throughout the year. BMO does the job.. in fact, it's probably too large for football.

[SaskScraper]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

Don't worry. Toronto is a big market. Football isn't the only sport around in these parts. Toronto has a long list of spectator facilities for many different sporting events.

Saskatoon punches above its weight for sports facilities. Obviously, sports are a greater priority there. Is that your point? You could have presented much better.

Saskatoon's sporting facilities such as it's NHL sized arena is besides the point.. Regina's NMS didn't have the luxury of Fed funding like Toronto's Skydome did.. Will Toronto get Fed funding for its next sporting facility? ..undoubtedly..

I'm just congratulating you guys on getting Federal funding for things these days that no other city in Canada gets (besides Montreal, Hamilton etc), That's what I mean by Toronto on it's own can't build facilities like NMS, I think that has to be looked at when considering Toronto's fortune of sports. Well played TO well played

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by SaskScraper

Saskatoon's sporting facilities such as it's NHL sized arena is besides the point.. Regina's NMS didn't have the luxury of Fed funding like Toronto's Skydome did.. Will Toronto get Fed funding for its next sporting facility? ..undoubtedly..

I'm just congratulating you guys on getting Federal funding for things these days that no other city in Canada gets (besides Montreal etc), That's what I mean by Toronto on it's own can't build facilities like NMS, I think that has to be looked at when considering Toronto's fortune of sports. Well played TO well played

What exactly did the feds contribute recently to pro sports facilities in Montreal?

[wave46]

Originally Posted by SaskScraper

Saskatoon's sporting facilities such as it's NHL sized arena is besides the point.. Regina's NMS didn't have the luxury of Fed funding like Toronto's Skydome did.. Will Toronto get Fed funding for its next sporting facility? ..undoubtedly..

I'm just congratulating you guys on getting Federal funding for things these days that no other city in Canada gets (besides Montreal etc), That's what I mean by Toronto on it's own can't build facilities like NMS, I think that has to be looked at when considering Toronto's fortune of sports. Well played TO well played

The Air Canada Centre didn't get any government funding, neither did the Bell Centre in Montreal.

I take your point - the feds shouldn't be giving money to any sporting facility IMO. But, I am philosophically opposed to government support of any pro sports venue, but I am apparently in the minority in Canada.

[SaskScraper]

Originally Posted by wave46

The Air Canada Centre didn't get any government funding, neither did the Bell Centre in Montreal.

I take your point - the feds shouldn't be giving money to any sporting facility IMO. But, I am philosophically opposed to government support of any pro sports venue, but I am apparently in the minority in Canada.

..The Toronto PanAm 2015 Organizing Committee and three jurisdictions of government were to spend about CA$672 million in upgrading and building new venues in the region..
The Canadian federal government was expected to provide CA$500 million in funding for the games..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Pan_American_Games

oh ..and congratulations Hamilton your new Fed funded stadium too

[esquire]

Originally Posted by SaskScraper

Saskatoon's sporting facilities such as it's NHL sized arena is besides the point.. Regina's NMS didn't have the luxury of Fed funding like Toronto's Skydome did.. Will Toronto get Fed funding for its next sporting facility? ..undoubtedly..

I'm just congratulating you guys on getting Federal funding for things these days that no other city in Canada gets (besides Montreal, Hamilton etc), That's what I mean by Toronto on it's own can't build facilities like NMS, I think that has to be looked at when considering Toronto's fortune of sports. Well played TO well played

NMS didn't get federal funding but it sure got a pile of provincial and municipal funding. I'm not sure why only the latter is morally defensible in your world, but anyhow...

Even if NMS had received a generous dollop of federal funds, it's not like that would have changed the fundamentals of the project. I don't see how anyone could conclude that federal funds are somehow the only difference between Toronto getting Skydome as opposed to a more modest NMS/IGF type outdoor facility.

[WhipperSnapper]

You're seriously bringing up the Pam Am Games contributions ...

The Skydome was also completed in 1989!!! You need to let that go.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by SaskScraper

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Pan_American_Games

oh ..and congratulations Hamilton your new Fed funded stadium too

Are you disagreeing with me? I don't see the Air Canada Centre listed there - it was dropped from the Pam Am schedule as there was no need for it.

[Acajack]

The feds also kicked in between a third and half of the cost of building BMO Field in 2007. The rationale behind this was that it would serve as Canada's national soccer stadium and home to the national team.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by esquire

NMS didn't get federal funding but it sure got a pile of provincial and municipal funding. I'm not sure why only the latter is morally defensible in your world, but anyhow...

Even if NMS had received a generous dollop of federal funds, it's not like that would have changed the fundamentals of the project. I don't see how anyone could conclude that federal funds are somehow the only difference between Toronto getting Skydome as opposed to a more modest NMS/IGF type outdoor facility.

Federal funding is only offensive if it ends up benefiting someone else. If it benefits you, it's completely justified.

Like I have said before (ad nauseam), the marriage of government funding and pro sports is an unholy mess. If a pro sporting venue cannot stand on its own as an enterprise, it should not be built. Plenty of pro stadiums were built prior to "requiring" government support and oddly enough, they tend to be the venues that have lasted the longest and have the most storied reputations.

[WhipperSnapper]

It's not that straightforward. The Feds sponsor international sporting events that require facilities. These facilities become part of the leftover legacy perfect for a pro sports franchise. That can be attributed to the Feds contributions to BMO Field (World Cup) or why Edmonton has a 1970s era NFL type stadium.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

It's not that straightforward. The Feds sponsor international sporting events that require facilities. These facilities become part of the leftover legacy perfect for a pro sports franchise. That can be attributed to the Feds contributions to BMO Field (World Cup) or why Edmonton has a 1970s era NFL type stadium.

I still don't agree with the practice, though. Organizations like the IOC and FIFA have become monstrosities because of the implicit government support they receive from countries across the world. In fact, both the IOC and FIFA have come to the point where it seems that democratic countries can no longer justify the expense of hosting an event - they have to try places where an authoritarian regime can marshal the resources they demand.

There's a difference between sponsoring part of a local community arena or pool that can be used by the public and these international organizations.

[WhipperSnapper]

I don't agree with it either but it's not as straightforward as a hand out to a pro sports franchise.

[blueandgoldguy]

I'm looking forward to Rogers' renovation plans for Rogers Centre in the next few years. The cynic in me thinks that almost all the renos funds will be allocated to the suites/ club level/ infield area plus new higher-end expensive seating while average joes sitting in the outfield and the upper deck will be lucky to get a light concourse refurbishment (ie. new lighting in the concourse) or new seats if they are lucky.

Prove me wrong Rogers!

[FrankieFlowerpot]

Originally Posted by SaskScraper

..directly from wiki page.

In other words, government including Federal government were the biggest loser when Skydome was sold for fraction of the cost to build.

so now you know

Perhaps you should use better sources than Wikipedia

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/ontario-learns-from-skydome/article732712/

By the time it opened in June, 1989, the price tag was $427-million and the final tally was about $630-million, most of it in public money. The federal government was not involved in the venture and private investment was limited. Nearly 30 companies put up $5-million each in return for advertising rights and preferred-supplier status worth $2-million. In addition, their contributions were tax-deductible.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by SaskScraper

Saskatoon's sporting facilities such as it's NHL sized arena is besides the point.. Regina's NMS didn't have the luxury of Fed funding like Toronto's Skydome did.. Will Toronto get Fed funding for its next sporting facility? ..undoubtedly..

Did we miss an announcement that there is a new stadium being planned and constructed in Toronto?

Originally Posted by esquire

Even if NMS had received a generous dollop of federal funds, it's not like that would have changed the fundamentals of the project. I don't see how anyone could conclude that federal funds are somehow the only difference between Toronto getting Skydome as opposed to a more modest NMS/IGF type outdoor facility.

This is a good point. Added federal funds do not automatically improve/alter the quality of NMS or any other project; they just shift the pool of money around. I can almost guarantee you'd end up with an identical stadium whether the split was 50/50 feds/private or 100 private.

[Migs]

[king10]

Interesting. Thought Hamilton's was bigger.

[SaskScraper]

Originally Posted by esquire

NMS didn't get federal funding but it sure got a pile of provincial and municipal funding. I'm not sure why only the latter is morally defensible in your world, but anyhow...

Even if NMS had received a generous dollop of federal funds, it's not like that would have changed the fundamentals of the project. I don't see how anyone could conclude that federal funds are somehow the only difference between Toronto getting Skydome as opposed to a more modest NMS/IGF type outdoor facility.

Hard to say if Federal funding would make any difference to any projects in Canada, how would one know. But maybe if one were to do a comparison of similar events such as a PanAm games one could see a difference Government funding can make.

case in point Winnipeg's PanAm games in 1999 cost $142Million and made a profit of $8million but all it's sporting facilities used were ones that Winnipeg already had or were temporary facilities with no legacy after the games, Winnipeg had nothing to show for new sporting facilities after it's games

Toronto's PanAm games in 2015 cost $2.6 Billion and left a swath of shiny new legacy sporting facilities in Golden Horseshoe care of not only municipal, & provincial but also Federal Government. Federal funding amounted to several times more than Winnipeg's entire PanAm budget.

Not only does Toronto had national media backing its games but also twenty times the Federal support.
Is it fair? maybe..Toronto has a lot more pull for national media attention for ingratiating it's self & Feds know this, so if it wants funding from Ottawa, it gets it. period.

“It wasn’t designed to be a big capital exercise,” says Sandy Riley, CEO of the Winnipeg ’99 Games.

“Now Toronto, on the other hand, is all about facilities, and the federal and provincial governments, it looks to me, have used this as an excuse to upgrade a lot of facilities in Toronto that probably needed it. Toronto hasn’t hosted an event of this nature, as it should, and I think all levels of government are taking advantage of that.”

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/panamga...innipeg-minimal-compared-to-toronto.html

Originally Posted by logan5
Minimum seating for NFL is 50 000. Obviously BC Place meets that requirement. If god forbid, the CFL were to fold, Vancouver would certainly get strong consideration for an NFL team.

I think BC place would make a great NFL football stadium if the NFL came knocking, seating capacity could be bumped up to 60,000 easily with NFL field being smaller than CFL. Edmonton's Commonwealth Stadium would also be a prime facility for NFL expansion as well.

As far as World Cup Soccer sites in Canada, BC place and Commonwealth would be top of the list too.
18,000 seats were added to Commonwealth Stadium back in the 1980's for a paltry $11 million. At least another 18,000 could be added at only a few times that cost to make upper tier horseshoe & make it a 75,000 seater if a Semi Final or Finals for World Cup site were needed in Canada.