Salt Lake City: Official Development News Thread - Part 4

[(Eco)nomy_404]

Originally Posted by DenverInfill

I think this is a key point. I noticed everyone is using the Salt Lake City CSA population figure of 2.5 million for this skyline analysis. But that figure includes stand-alone cities like Ogden and Provo that have their own central business districts. It doesn't seem to me that the populations of the Ogden and Provo MSAs really contribute much to the demand for skyscrapers in downtown SLC.

Originally Posted by Comrade

Because it's silly to suggest Salt Lake has more in common as a region with Hartford, Grand Rapids, Birmingham and Tucson (metros roughly the same size as Salt Lake's) than they do Portland, Charlotte, Sacramento and Pittsburgh.

That is precisely why I use the CSA, it gets kind of "silly" comparing MSA's, and even more ridiculous comparing cities. CSA's are much more of an apples-to-apples comparison (or at least as close to one as you can get) when comparing geographic areas.

Originally Posted by Mountain man

Why would any business owner put an office downtown if they live in Provo or Ogden. No sensible person is going to drive 45 minutes downtown and back every day, and that's without traffic, it can be well over an hour if there is. So that's why I believe there are more office buildings being built in other cities just like the much hated Sandy. And if Provo or Ogden are much closer to where I live than downtown then I'm going to put my office in the closest one.

Question, does Salt Lake have any incentives for companies to want to move downtown?

The problem to me is that Salt Lake is just to far for most people to want to drive and the front runner takes so long as well. So why would most companies want to move downtown?

I have noticed that a lot of people tend to over estimate the sprawl along the Wasatch Front. Here are some more SLC/CLT comparisons to put things in perspective:

Provo to SLC: 44 min by car (62 by train)
Ogden to SLC: 36 min by car (57 by train)

Rock Hill (SC) to Charlotte: 38 min by car (No rail)
Salisbury to Charlotte: 47 min by car (No rail)

The distances from the fringes of the CSA to the center are nearly identical in both. I don't think this is a factor in lack of skyline development. If anything, the increased compactness would encourage SLC to grow higher. In my 5 years in UT, I knew countless people who commuted from as far away as Santaquin or Pleasant View to SLC for work or school. It's quite common actually. CSA-designated areas must "demonstrate economic or social linkage." The United States Office of Management and Budget defines a CSA as consisting of various combinations of adjacent metropolitan and micropolitan areas with economic ties measured by commuting patterns. The CSA designation requires a minimum employment exchange of 15%. I imagine SLC and CLT are similar in this regard.

I tend to agree with the suggestions that it may have more to do with the multi-polar nature of CBD's along the Wasatch Front and the wide blocks downtown. Even so, I still feel like SLC has some catching up to do. It has a decent bulk of mid-level to smaller high-rise towers, but it lacks some break-out 500-600 footers. I don't think any of these factors excuse SLC from its stubby skyline. Maybe it won't ever get as many 500 and 600+ foot towers as CLT, but it can certainly get a few. I'm not saying SLC should have an identical skyline to CLT, but it should at least be in the same league.

[SLCLvr]

Originally Posted by jubguy3

what about millcreek and murray? i know millcreek is technically just a township, but millcreek is definitely very liberal and murray seems to have a strong democratic base. most of holladay voted democratic in 2016 and the eastern and northern parts of cottonwood heights also leaned towards clinton

Millcreek is a city now as of Jan 2017.
https://millcreekut.org

[jubguy3]

Originally Posted by SLCLvr

Millcreek is a city now as of Jan 2017.
https://millcreekut.org

I don't know how I didn't hear about that..

[TonyAnderson]

Originally Posted by jubguy3

I don't know how I didn't hear about that..

Yeah, they voted to be a city last election. I think the population is 60k-ish. Won't have official census numbers for them until next year.

[JMK]

Amazon building $200 million facility in Utah


http://business.utah.gov/news/goed-approves-amazon-expansion-utah/

http://www.ksl.com/?sid=44559875&nid=148&title=amazon-to-build-new-facility-in-utah-

Gov. Gary Herbert joined the board of the Governor's Office of Economic Development on Thursday morning to announce that Amazon will be investing $200 million in a new regional fulfillment facility in Utah, likely to be located in Salt Lake City's northwest quadrant.
...
Amazon will receive an incentive package worth $5.7 million, a figure that represents 20 percent of the tax revenue the company will generate over the next eight years.

[Stenar]

We knew this was in the works when Amazon agreed to collect sales tax. But it's good to have an official announcement. It will also be nice to get packages sooner.

Originally Posted by JMK

Amazon building $200 million facility in Utah


http://business.utah.gov/news/goed-approves-amazon-expansion-utah/

http://www.ksl.com/?sid=44559875&nid=148&title=amazon-to-build-new-facility-in-utah-

[StevenF]

Originally Posted by Stenar

We knew this was in the works when Amazon agreed to collect sales tax. But it's good to have an official announcement. It will also be nice to get packages sooner.

I too thought this was in the pipeline when it was announced in December we would be paying sales tax at the start of 2017. I look forward to same day delivery for groceries and other items with my Prime membership.

Though we all know this most likely will not be placed in Salt Lake Cities boundaries.

[Makid]

News is that the center will be in the NW Quadrant. This would put it near the recently announced UPS distribution center and near the new Prison.

With a fulfillment center nearby, this means that we will soon be getting same day or 6 hour delivery for some products. This also means that shipping traffic by rail, plane and truck will increase for the area.

I do wonder if FedEx and other shipping companies will also expand/move to the NW quadrant as well.

With Amazon in the NW Quadrant, Post Cereals near 5600 West and the 201, plus the possibility of the inland port, I think we will hear about for expansions and relocations for shipping, fulfillment, distribution centers, and smaller manufacturing plants around the NW Quadrant over the next few years.

[StevenF]

Originally Posted by Makid

News is that the center will be in the NW Quadrant. This would put it near the recently announced UPS distribution center and near the new Prison.

With a fulfillment center nearby, this means that we will soon be getting same day or 6 hour delivery for some products. This also means that shipping traffic by rail, plane and truck will increase for the area.

I do wonder if FedEx and other shipping companies will also expand/move to the NW quadrant as well.

With Amazon in the NW Quadrant, Post Cereals near 5600 West and the 201, plus the possibility of the inland port, I think we will hear about for expansions and relocations for shipping, fulfillment, distribution centers, and smaller manufacturing plants around the NW Quadrant over the next few years.

FedEx already has a large building just south of the airport off California Ave and 5600 West.

[San Diego-Honolulu]

I think the new Amazon announcement is also a sure sign that Amazon Prime Air will be coming to the Salt Lake City airport. I always thought there was a lack of a major air cargo operation in the mountain region of the country. Hopefully this announcement also means more air cargo operations at the airport. I hope Salt Lake City and Amazon take advantage of a geographical advantage in this move as well.

[delts145]

(Eco), I would be interested to hear yours and others thoughts on the effect that Charlotte would gain sitting at the center of approx. 15 million population in the Carolinas alone. By Western standards the Carolinas are not even that large of a region geographically. While Salt Lake City is a regional Capital, it's vast Intermountain/Great Basin empire is relatively empty compared to the region surrounding Charlotte. Fortunately for Salt Lake and the Wasatch Front as a whole, it is the only major metro with same day location to all major points on the populous West Coast. That's a big leg up when attracting deals like this Amazon announcement.

Originally Posted by (Eco)nomy_404

That is precisely why I use the CSA, it gets kind of "silly" comparing MSA's, and even more ridiculous comparing cities. CSA's are much more of an apples-to-apples comparison (or at least as close to one as you can get) when comparing geographic areas.

I have noticed that a lot of people tend to over estimate the sprawl along the Wasatch Front. Here are some more SLC/CLT comparisons to put things in perspective:

Provo to SLC: 44 min by car (62 by train)
Ogden to SLC: 36 min by car (57 by train)

Rock Hill (SC) to Charlotte: 38 min by car (No rail)
Salisbury to Charlotte: 47 min by car (No rail)

The distances from the fringes of the CSA to the center are nearly identical in both. I don't think this is a factor in lack of skyline development. If anything, the increased compactness would encourage SLC to grow higher. In my 5 years in UT, I knew countless people who commuted from as far away as Santaquin or Pleasant View to SLC for work or school. It's quite common actually. CSA-designated areas must "demonstrate economic or social linkage." The United States Office of Management and Budget defines a CSA as consisting of various combinations of adjacent metropolitan and micropolitan areas with economic ties measured by commuting patterns. The CSA designation requires a minimum employment exchange of 15%. I imagine SLC and CLT are similar in this regard.

I tend to agree with the suggestions that it may have more to do with the multi-polar nature of CBD's along the Wasatch Front and the wide blocks downtown. Even so, I still feel like SLC has some catching up to do. It has a decent bulk of mid-level to smaller high-rise towers, but it lacks some break-out 500-600 footers. I don't think any of these factors excuse SLC from its stubby skyline. Maybe it won't ever get as many 500 and 600+ foot towers as CLT, but it can certainly get a few. I'm not saying SLC should have an identical skyline to CLT, but it should at least be in the same league.

[delts145]

Continuing this thought, does anyone have a rough idea of how much of Amazon's service would be Via Air, vs. Rail and Interstate highway? This, considering Salt Lake has same day to everything between Denver and the West Coast.

Originally Posted by San Diego-Honolulu

I think the new Amazon announcement is also a sure sign that Amazon Prime Air will be coming to the Salt Lake City airport. I always thought there was a lack of a major air cargo operation in the mountain region of the country. Hopefully this announcement also means more air cargo operations at the airport. I hope Salt Lake City and Amazon take advantage of a geographical advantage in this move as well.

[Orlando]

Great...another big warehouse for SLC

[Comrade]

Originally Posted by Orlando

Great...another big warehouse for SLC

Well...I mean...warehouses are inevitable. Especially for larger regions.

I just wish we'd get some major development news downtown.

[Comrade]

Originally Posted by Liberty Wellsian

No SLC proper has not had an explosion of infill for 20 years. 15-20 years ago SLC had a heroine junky vibe to it. I'm almost certain that we have had more residential units developed in the last five years than the previous 15. Further while SLC may be still lagging behind some of her peers there has been moves on the tower front. This decade we have added our 3rd, 4th, 12th, and 18th tallest building including our tallest residential tower. The core of our downtown and Sugarhouse has been redeveloped and we are getting 2 new TOD corridors along N Temple and 2100 S. It's total bs that the CCH didn't break ground at least 2 years ago but still this city is stronger than it has ever been. We are moving in the right direction.

In the 1990s, Salt Lake City added the 1st, 6th, 7th and 8th tallest - so, you're kinda making my point for me.

Moreover, the development we see is NOT terribly different than the development that began to spring up in the city in 2000.

There might be more of it - but it's almost surely the same.

Brigham Apartments was built in the 90s. It was a significant project at eight-stories. You had the completion of the Gateway and its residential projects in 2002, including the eight-story Parc at the Gateway. Emigration Court, at six-stories or so, was completed in the early 00s. The Metro, by the Library, with seven or so stories, was completed in the early 00s. In the 90s, you had warehouses that were converted to condos downtown. There was the Broadway Park Lofts by Pioneer Park. You also had a smattering of Cowboy Partners' property that sprung up in the early 00s, including Liberty Metro. Citifront went up west of downtown.

That's on top of the actual residential high-rise boom of the 60s, 70s and 80s which is almost nonexistent nowadays (and would be completely nonexistent without the LDS Church).

Like I said, there's more of these developments now - but they're not much different than what the city was developing in the mid-00s. And those were just the ones off the top of my head.

Salt Lake is doing okay. The thing is, much of the residential development going up here is also going up in Sandy and West Valley and Murray and nearly every suburban city in America. That's okay. The problem is that we're not countering that with significant type of residential development that you see in other major cities. And it's been like that since the 90s.

[linguisize]

Originally Posted by Comrade

Well...I mean...warehouses are inevitable. Especially for larger regions.

I just wish we'd get some major development news downtown.

I'm all for as many warehouses as they want out west. Let's fill all that land up with warehouses so people stop spreading their houses out there and start investing more downtown.

[Ironweed]

Salt Lake is doing okay. The thing is, much of the residential development going up here is also going up in Sandy and West Valley and Murray and nearly every suburban city in America. That's okay. The problem is that we're not countering that with significant type of residential development that you see in other major cities. And it's been like that since the 90s.[/QUOTE]

I agree Comrad. I think we can spend all day trying to figure out why SLC's downtown is not where it should be. Bottom line for me is that the CSA is in the top 25 in size. It is likely to climb the rankings. It deserves a vibrant, busy and far larger downtown. One thing I've noticed about the natives, is that they are not very forward thinking. People here can be stubborn and don't like change. What they should do is build now and not wait, otherwise the sprawl machine will take over and all the negative consequences that go with it. On a side note; I have a good friend who works for the city's RDA. Let's put it this way: It is not encouraging​ or impressive.

[Tymtw12]

Anyone heard anything new on the redevelopment of the Utah Theater, especially the residential tower portion? I think they were hoping to go pretty high, 200-250', maybe? I think the RDA hired Hines as the developer if I recall correctly.

[Comrade]

Here's an interesting article that indicates Salt Lake City is becoming increasingly less dense with its growth:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/22/upsho...e-myth-of-the-return-to-cities.html?_r=0

So, while the appearance of having denser, less sprawling communities has solidified locally over the last few years, the development suggests that, over the last 6 years, the metro is 2.8% less dense than it was just in 2010 - the exact opposite to places like Portland and Seattle and more in line with sunbelt cities.

[Orlando]

Yep, all this talk about how the valley is filling up and will generate more density when that happens... ya, right. It's just spilling over into Tooele, Saratoga Springs, Eagle Mountain, Herriman, etc. This is why I live in Seattle.