High Speed Rail in Canada

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

There are increasing opportunities for rail because roads are becoming increasingly congested and air travel has become a miserable experience. It has started to become a big issue between Toronto and Ottawa and that is why rail ridership is growing on that route. There is a similar opportunity is southwestern Ontario where driving is the only current choice.

More noticeable between Toronto and Kingston, in my experience over the last few years, but yes. The 401 between Kitchener and Oshawa is frequently brutal.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

The bus companies have also done their part. There is no reason you couldn't have luxury buses doing big inter-city routes.

Yes there is. There's no business case for it. Anybody who can afford a bit more for comfort is already taking the train. If they can afford more than that, they'll take the plane.

You'll see luxury buses for example in Alberta. There are people willing to pay for it. In Ontario? Why would you bother when the train is only slightly more expensive and you get better service and a very slightly improvement in speed.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

More noticeable between Toronto and Kingston, in my experience over the last few years, but yes. The 401 between Kitchener and Oshawa is frequently brutal.

Exactly. I used to drive from Scarborough to Ottawa often, from 2006 to 2012.

During that time, it was the GTA traffic which really impacted my drive (other than weather). The 50km from Scarborough to Oshawa could take an hr in traffic. I can't even imagine starting in downtown Toronto or the West-end at rush.

Ditto going west. Kitchener to Union should be a 1.5 hr drive. But in traffic? Easily 2 hrs and often 2.5 hrs. That's what makes this HSR propopsal so valuable. No company wants to waste their employees time and stress for hours in traffic.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Which is why I have always thought we should nationalize the rail lines, and just contract them out for freight. No politician would ever do it, but it would be the best thing for the country.

We don't need to go that far. The federal government could simply legislate "fair access" to railways.. create a rule where any railway has the right to use another railway's track as long as the traffic of the railway owner is not unduly impeded, and have a tribunal to enforce it.

[MalcolmTucker]

It is almost like the government has already done that:
Public Passenger Service Providers
Dispute Resolution

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-10.4/page-24.html#h-81

Perhaps you have a very different view of what undue delay is.

[GreaterMontréal]

Southern Quebec is lucky to have 2 major highways between Montréal and Quebec City. once you exit the GMA, the traffic is not that bad.

[Mister F]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Yes there is. There's no business case for it. Anybody who can afford a bit more for comfort is already taking the train. If they can afford more than that, they'll take the plane.

You'll see luxury buses for example in Alberta. There are people willing to pay for it. In Ontario? Why would you bother when the train is only slightly more expensive and you get better service and a very slightly improvement in speed.

Agreed. I lol'd at the suggestion of luxury buses as an alternative to trains. Buses are fundamentally louder, less comfortable and less spacious than trains, no matter how luxurious. Unless the proposal is to have us all riding around in the Rolling Stones tour bus, no thanks.

And as multiple people have just pointed out, buses can't go any faster than a car and have to sit in traffic like everyone else. I don't think people in other parts of the country really understand how big of a problem southern Ontario traffic really is.

Originally Posted by GreaterMontréal

Southern Quebec is lucky to have 2 major highways between Montréal and Quebec City. once you exit the GMA, the traffic is not that bad.

A northern freeway between Toronto and Ottawa would help, like from Peterborough to Carlton Place. But that gap is mostly Canadian Shield and would cost billions to fill. And it wouldn't do anything for traffic in the GTA. Better to put that money into rail.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Exactly. I used to drive from Scarborough to Ottawa often, from 2006 to 2012.

During that time, it was the GTA traffic which really impacted my drive (other than weather). The 50km from Scarborough to Oshawa could take an hr in traffic. I can't even imagine starting in downtown Toronto or the West-end at rush.

Ditto going west. Kitchener to Union should be a 1.5 hr drive. But in traffic? Easily 2 hrs and often 2.5 hrs. That's what makes this HSR propopsal so valuable. No company wants to waste their employees time and stress for hours in traffic.

On weekends it can be even worse, especially long weekends in the summer. It's not unusual to have rural traffic jams as far as Kitchener, Belleville, Niagara Falls and Barrie.

[swimmer_spe]

Want to ease congestion in the GTA? Remove tolls on the 407.

Even in rush hour the traffic rarely is slowed down. I have yet to come to a stand still.

Now, I am fortunate not to live in the area, but when I visit, it is worth the tolls.

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Yes there is. There's no business case for it. Anybody who can afford a bit more for comfort is already taking the train. If they can afford more than that, they'll take the plane.

You'll see luxury buses for example in Alberta. There are people willing to pay for it. In Ontario? Why would you bother when the train is only slightly more expensive and you get better service and a very slightly improvement in speed.

A major factor in Ontario that many are not aware of is that the provincial government mandates a monopoly system for inter-city bus travel in Ontario, at least in areas not served by GO Transit or Ontario Northland. This is why Greyhound is the only bus option from London to Toronto. This is why you won't see Megabus in London. With a guaranted monopoly, Greyhound has no incentive to provide a nice bus or friendly service. (It's even worse in the United States, from my experience)

It's not something you really notice until you travel outside North America.

[Mister F]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Want to ease congestion in the GTA? Remove tolls on the 407.

Even in rush hour the traffic rarely is slowed down. I have yet to come to a stand still.

Now, I am fortunate not to live in the area, but when I visit, it is worth the tolls.

Sure, if you want to introduce daily traffic jams on the 407, eliminate the tolls. Don't kid yourself, that would do nothing to relieve 401 traffic. Both would be jammed.

As much as I curse the cost of driving on the 407, I recognize that those tolls are what keep it congestion-free.

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by Mister F

Sure, if you want to introduce daily traffic jams on the 407, eliminate the tolls. Don't kid yourself, that would do nothing to relieve 401 traffic. Both would be jammed.

As much as I curse the cost of driving on the 407, I recognize that those tolls are what keep it congestion-free.

While the 401 would still be very busy, I believe it would be less busy in that scenario. The biggest difference would be the truck traffic.

The roadway that would benefit most from removing tolls from the 407 would be Highway 7, however.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Mister F

Sure, if you want to introduce daily traffic jams on the 407, eliminate the tolls. Don't kid yourself, that would do nothing to relieve 401 traffic. Both would be jammed.

As much as I curse the cost of driving on the 407, I recognize that those tolls are what keep it congestion-free.

If that is the case, toll all 400 series highway.

[1overcosc]

I'm not sure if luxury buses would have a market in Ontario even if the province deregulated the system allowing them to exist.

Anyone who cares about quality and experience takes the train.. the bus is there for people who want bare-bottom fares and don't care about much else. Luxury buses work on the Calgary-Edmonton route because there's no rail service.

[ssiguy]

The horrid traffic in Sothern Ontario is another reason why SWO needs HSR in whatever form that takes. The 401 from KWC to Toronto is awful as is the Woodstock to London particularly with it's very heavy transport traffic.

I have never been a fan of the London to Toronto route going thru KWC. It's indirect and with Geulph now wanting a station, isn't going to be particularly high speed. For Londoners and Winsdorites, the best route is the line that exists north of hwy #2 to Woodstock and then to Paris but build a straight line track to completely bypass Brantford. For those who don't know the area, the VIA route makes a huge "V" shape to serve Brantford adding 30 minutes to the journey. Buy the fast 200km/hr diesels, add some overpasses, build that Brantford bypass and run London/Windsor non-stops for a vastly lower price and still get from London to Union in about 80 minutes.

[Elmira Guy]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

The horrid traffic in Sothern Ontario is another reason why SWO needs HSR in whatever form that takes. The 401 from KWC to Toronto is awful as is the Woodstock to London particularly with it's very heavy transport traffic.

I have never been a fan of the London to Toronto route going thru KWC. It's indirect and with Geulph now wanting a station, isn't going to be particularly high speed. For Londoners and Winsdorites, the best route is the line that exists north of hwy #2 to Woodstock and then to Paris but build a straight line track to completely bypass Brantford. For those who don't know the area, the VIA route makes a huge "V" shape to serve Brantford adding 30 minutes to the journey. Buy the fast 200km/hr diesels, add some overpasses, build that Brantford bypass and run London/Windsor non-stops for a vastly lower price and still get from London to Union in about 80 minutes.

Fortunately the province doesn't share your disdain for KWC (which you have demonstrated a number of times) and nor are they going to ignore an area with over 700,000 people (KWC + Guelph) to feed HSR as you would do.

While I certainly think London should be on the HSR, and ultimately Windsor, I will wager that the planners see KWC to Toronto HSR as the primary focus. And I don't say that to snub London, nor to boost KWC, but because I suspect the commuter traffic between KWC and Toronto is greater than that coming from London.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

The horrid traffic in Sothern Ontario is another reason why SWO needs HSR in whatever form that takes. The 401 from KWC to Toronto is awful as is the Woodstock to London particularly with it's very heavy transport traffic.

I have never been a fan of the London to Toronto route going thru KWC. It's indirect and with Geulph now wanting a station, isn't going to be particularly high speed. For Londoners and Winsdorites, the best route is the line that exists north of hwy #2 to Woodstock and then to Paris but build a straight line track to completely bypass Brantford. For those who don't know the area, the VIA route makes a huge "V" shape to serve Brantford adding 30 minutes to the journey. Buy the fast 200km/hr diesels, add some overpasses, build that Brantford bypass and run London/Windsor non-stops for a vastly lower price and still get from London to Union in about 80 minutes.

That's old thinking. Why are people having trouble understanding that the Waterloo - Toronto high tech corridor is THE reason for the HSR proposal? The high tech sector lobbying that went into getting the Wynne government on side is hardly a secret. The province's decision to extend the first phase to London is good, but it's not the main event.

[MalcolmTucker]

Doesn't look too indirect.



From: https://rac.jmaponline.net/canadianrailatlas/

[Mister F]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

Doesn't look too indirect.

That's because it isn't. It's been pointed out to ssiguy before that the proposed route through Kitchener is almost exactly the same length of the line through Brantford thanks to the new, arrow-straight line that would be built between Kitchener and London. It might even be a bit shorter. And as kwoldtimer and Elmira Guy mentioned, the whole point of this project is to connect Kitchener-Waterloo to Toronto. Everything else is secondary.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

Doesn't look too indirect.

From: https://rac.jmaponline.net/canadianrailatlas/

Unrelated, but thanks for posting this link, it's awesome!

[Innsertnamehere]

Originally Posted by Mister F

That's because it isn't. It's been pointed out to ssiguy before that the proposed route through Kitchener is almost exactly the same length of the line through Brantford thanks to the new, arrow-straight line that would be built between Kitchener and London. It might even be a bit shorter. And as kwoldtimer and Elmira Guy mentioned, the whole point of this project is to connect Kitchener-Waterloo to Toronto. Everything else is secondary.

I'm measuring 182km for the Kitchener route and 185km for the Brantford route. Kitchener would probably be a bit more than 182 though as it likely won't be a 100% dead straight line like I measured.

Still, it's essentially the same. Plus you get the bonus of catching Kitchener on the way.