Rapid Transit

[thistleclub]

Originally Posted by markbarbera

The funding is for higher order rapid transit. It has never been LRT or nothing.

Two options were brought forward for consideration by the province in the Metrolinx Benefits Case Analysis: B-Line LRT and B-Line BRT. One carries a $1B price tag and we're already in the project stream. The other comes with a $300M price tag and the city would potentially be expected to flesh out the business case and reapply for funding.

The City is of course not limited to those projects. It could build its case for any number of different projects. But it's one of those bird-in-the-hand situations.


Oct 2015:

MetroLinx CEO Bruce McCuaig said the provincial money that would have funded the Brampton portion of the defeated LRT plan will now be available for other transit projects across the province.

But he made it clear that any alternative transit plan Brampton now decides on could still be considered by the province for funding. “That would have to be evaluated,” he told councillors.

Nov 2015:

Brampton can't count on hanging on to the money that the province had allocated as its share of the Hurontario-Main LRT, says Transportation Minister Steven Del Duca.…

The money will be reinvested in transportation infrastructure, said Del Duca. But where it goes depends on an analysis of priority transit projects by provincial transportation agency Metrolinx.

"We will proceed with the plan to build the LRT from the Port Credit GO station to Steeles and the balance of the funding in question will flow back into the (province's) Moving Ontario Forward plan to be invested in priority transit projects in the region, which in theory could be a project or more than one project in Brampton but is not necessarily going to be Brampton," he said.

"I can't say at this point it will be in the 905, the 416, in Toronto, in York Region, in Durham, in Brampton because we'll continue to do our work, our analysis," said Del Duca.

[CaptainKirk]

Originally Posted by markbarbera

This is simply not true. The funding is for higher order rapid transit. It has never been LRT or nothing.

At one time, long ago, it was for rapid transit, but we're way past that point. the process has led to LRT. We've been at LRT or nothing for a while now and that has been reaffirmed by the province more than once.

[markbarbera]

A portion of the rapid transit plan route has already been changed from LRT to BRT, so the "LRT or nothing" mantra simply doesn't hold the litmus test.

It wasn't LRT or nothing for Toronto's Scarborough line. Council changed their mind and went with a subway line instead, and the Metrolinx funding didn't disappear as a result. It hasn't been LRT or nothing for any other city, so why are we still pushing this myth that Metrolinx holds us to this sort of ultimatum?

[MalcolmTucker]

Well, it is LRT or another higher order transit system on the same corridor. The city is really going to turn around and ask for something that doesn't conform to the BLAST corridor? By changing a plan late in the game remember Toronto did refund a big chunk of change to Metrolinx.

[thistleclub]

Originally Posted by markbarbera

A portion of the rapid transit plan route has already been changed from LRT to BRT

Via Metrolinx:

Bus Rapid Transit (BRT): Similar to light rail transit operating predominantly in protected rights-ofway, separate from other traffic, but using advanced bus technology. Also includes buses operating in mixed traffic on controlled-access expressways that employ congestion management such as tolls, thereby allowing the buses to maintain high average speeds.

Examples of Metrolinx-funded BRT projects include VIVA Rapidway, Mississauga Transitway and the projected Dundas Street BRT.

HSR? Not so much.

[Innsertnamehere]

You could point to Brampton who changed their minds on the project and had funding yanked. Hamilton would be no different at this point if they backed out. The funding would go elsewhere, the province wants to spend this money, not wait 5 years until the municipality figures out what it wants to do with it.

[eatboots]

Originally Posted by markbarbera

A portion of the rapid transit plan route has already been changed from LRT to BRT, so the "LRT or nothing" mantra simply doesn't hold the litmus test.

It wasn't LRT or nothing for Toronto's Scarborough line. Council changed their mind and went with a subway line instead, and the Metrolinx funding didn't disappear as a result. It hasn't been LRT or nothing for any other city, so why are we still pushing this myth that Metrolinx holds us to this sort of ultimatum?

Once it was decided that it was going to be LRT it became LRT or nothing, if Hamilton wants something else it has to go to the back of the line and come up with a new plan after already spending $80 Million on LRT, which sounds exactly like something Hamilton would do

[markbarbera]

Originally Posted by thistleclub

Via Metrolinx:


Bus Rapid Transit (BRT): Similar to light rail transit operating predominantly in protected rights-ofway, separate from other traffic, but using advanced bus technology. Also includes buses operating in mixed traffic on controlled-access expressways that employ congestion management such as tolls, thereby allowing the buses to maintain high average speeds.

Examples of Metrolinx-funded BRT projects include VIVA Rapidway, Mississauga Transitway and the projected Dundas Street BRT.

HSR? Not so much.

See diagram below, with emphasis on its title

Originally Posted by SteelTown

https://twitter.com/SamCraggsCBC

[thistleclub]

Originally Posted by markbarbera

See diagram below, with emphasis on its title

Exactly. A-Line BRT has been "proposed". The accompanying news release makes it clear that this is still in the planning phase: "Connections to key destinations such as Mohawk College, St. Joseph's Healthcare, and the West Harbour area will also be explored during the planning phase, and details such as the number of stops will be determined through further study by Metrolinx and the City of Hamilton." That's effectively where B-Line LRT was circa 2009.

In addition to the announced environmental assessment, BRT will likely have to undergo ridership studies and analysis and community engagement: There's no existing Metrolinx BCA for A-Line BRT.

The funding question will certainly need to be resolved. The savings from scrapping the James North spur has been estimated at $100M-$125M, but Metrolinx's 2010 BCA valued B-Line BRT at $220M ($248M 2017). If that estimate is correct, A-Line BRT would scale out to around $300M. Adding lane capacity along the 16km route would push that number skyward.

All of which might be an overly cautious read. But it speaks to the "bird in the hand" aspect of how best to proceed.

[markbarbera]

From that news release:

The 16 km BRT replaces a previously-proposed 2 km LRT spur, based on analysis and feedback received through public consultations in the fall. Together with the 11km LRT, which will have 14 stops along Main and King Streets, and feature new, modern light rail vehicles with service from McMaster University to Queenston Circle, these two projects will provide rapid, reliable and convenient transit to families and commuters in the Hamilton area.

Regardless on what stage of planning the project is in, Metrolinx has already modified it to include BRT instead of the LRT on a portion of the route - to the extend that BRT now makes up a larger portion of the system's overall route map than the LRT portion of the plan. Clearly, they are committed to rapid transit in the city in either format. the "LRT or nothing" mantra is nothing more than a straw man.

[thistleclub]

Originally Posted by markbarbera

From that news release:

Regardless on what stage of planning the project is in, Metrolinx has already modified it to include BRT instead of the LRT on a portion of the route - to the extend that BRT now makes up a larger portion of the system's overall route map than the LRT portion of the plan. Clearly, they are committed to rapid transit in the city in either format. the "LRT or nothing" mantra is nothing more than a straw man.

I don't know anyone who claims "LRT or nothing" or discusses the stakes in anything other than a realpolitik sense (i.e. that the promised $1B funding adheres to the project and not the municipality and, in the event that the project is killed, would return to a central reservoir to fund Metrolinx's next priority project). Clearly, Metrolinx is committed to cycling, transit, rapid transit, commuter rail etc. It's just a matter of whether that ideological commitment is backed by a financial commitment.

The prospect of A-Line BRT is an encouraging and welcome development, but it's not clear what it actually amounts to. Anyone who parses government press releases and statements can spot the loopholes and blind spots that ground otherwise grandiose news stories. And the A-Line certainly has those.

As a line on a map, the A-Line is undeniably longer than the B-Line, but the route is as yet unfunded — it's just a potential recipient of the "surplus" from B-Line LRT, in the event that the east-west route comes in under budget. (Minister DelDuca, italics mine: "I would expect some of the money in that $1 billion will go into the delivery for the BRT.") It's also a new announcement, and as such is not a Next Wave project in the priority queue — you won't find it in the most recent Metrolinx mandate letter, for example.

To be sure, one could argue that B-Line LRT funding could technically vanish even if council rallies unanimously at the 11th hour (I believe that's the Allen Station clause) but it's a lot more concrete than the north-south route, which is still at the conceptual stage.

[thistleclub]

Hamilton Liberal MPP Ted McMeekin calls local Tories ‘bizarre’ for opposing LRT
(Stoney Creek News, Kevin Werner, Apr 7 2017)

Hamilton Liberal MPP Ted McMeekin calls area Progressive Conservative MPP nomination candidates and party leader Patrick Brown “bizarre” for their stance against the city’s light rail transit project.

Brown said last year during a roundtable business meeting that if elected in 2018 he will still provide the $1 billion in capital funding to Hamilton that the Liberals had authorized for LRT. But it will be up to Hamilton politicians to decide which transportation infrastructure they will spend the money on.

But area Progressive Conservatives officials and MPP nomination candidates have indicated they are against LRT.

“It’s bizarre,” said McMeekin. “Patrick Brown is a serial shape-shifter. You never know what his position will be on anything. For him to be saying to our government over and over again this is all about transparency and accountability and to say he is prepared to write a check for $1 billion and Hamilton can do what it wants with it is not only bizarre, it’s irresponsible.”

Read it in full here.

[Sehnsucht]

Hamilton LRT article in the Globe and Mail.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/toro...-line-means-forhamilton/article34731605/

[SteelTown]

Hamilton's $1B for LRT is only for this project: McMeekin
Local MPP says if city rejects LRT plan, it has to get back in line for funding other projects

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/mcmeekin-lrt-money-1.4082830

Ted McMeekin says Hamilton is getting $1 billion for its light rail transit (LRT) plan, and if city council wants it for a different transit plan, it has to ask for money all over again — and it may or may not get it.

The provincial funding for Hamilton's LRT project is no different than applying to build a hospital, says the Liberal Ancaster-Dundas-Flamborough-Westdale MPP.

If you want to build an arena instead, you have to reapply for the money all over again. And seven cities are already in line for the transit money Hamilton is currently debating.

McMeekin made the comments at a government announcement at LIUNA station Monday.

"If you decide you want to build a hospital, for example, and you get a billion dollars in funding, and then you decide you want to build an arena somewhere, that's a different project and you have to go back to the drawing board," he said.

The fate of Hamilton's $1 billion LRT allocation if the city rejects the project is a key question heading into a critical council vote Wednesday. Some members of city council say Hamilton accepts it for LRT or loses it. Those opposed say that rejecting LRT is not rejecting a $1 billion investment — the money will come back around again for other uses.

McMeekin tried to dispel any confusion or uncertainty.

"The billion dollars was for — and let me make this categorically clear — the light rail transit project," he said.

"If they have another plan down the road, they'll have to … make another request."

In doing so, he said, Hamilton will compete with seven other cities asking for money for rapid transit projects.

However, McMeekin did concede that the idea of returning to the original plan of a line extending as far east as Eastgate Square would be considered part of the existing plan and wouldn't force the city to the back of the line.

Mayor Fred Eisenberger said the city is choosing to accept a $1 billion Metrolinx project, not being given a $1 billion blank cheque.

"It's not Hamilton's money," he said. "It's the province's $1 billion."

​McMeekin said the allocation is specifically for this project, which the city requested the province fund. If the city wants money for another transit project, it goes to the back of the line to request the province fund it.

"We had the debate in Hamilton over many years," he said.

"I remember the angry days when people were screaming at the province to get off its derriere and get this done."

City council will decide Wednesday whether to approve an updated environmental assessment, which lays out the design plan for the $1 billion LRT system.

The plan has an LRT from McMaster University to the Queenston traffic circle, although some have said plans are still afoot to follow the original plan to Eastgate Square.

McMeekin said there have been "discussions" with the minister, the mayor and others to add Eastgate to the plan again.

"Stay tuned," he said. "Who knows?"

[king10]

Why did Wynne just last week say it wasn't tied to LRT? They need to release a joint message and be on the same page.

[Rg2016]

Originally Posted by king10

Why did Wynne just last week say it wasn't tied to LRT? They need to release a joint message and be on the same page.

Well mcmeekin is right, look what happened to Brampton, they are in a major set back

[SteelTown]

City and province in talks to extend LRT to Eastgate Square
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/lrt-eastgate-square-1.4083776

The city and province are talking about extending Hamilton's light rail transit (LRT) system to Eastgate Square as originally planned. But it's still unknown whether it'll happen fast enough to sway any councillors to approve the project during a crucial vote Wednesday.

The city and province have been talking "for months" about LRT to Eastgate Square, said Ted McMeekin, MPP for Ancaster-Dundas-Flamborough-Westdale. And they're still talking.

As for whether there'll be anything to announce soon: "Stay tuned," he said. "Who knows?'

Changing the LRT plan to go to Eastgate Square may seem like an eleventh hour effort to get councillors on board. But McMeekin's comments are just the latest indication it's not an outlandish idea.

The LRT plan was originally supposed to go from McMaster University to Eastgate Square. But when the province announced $1 billion in 2015 for Metrolinx to build the project, the B line portion only went from McMaster to the Queenston traffic circle.

The province said the revised plan allowed it to build an LRT spur line down James Street North. But it has since found the ridership isn't worth the cost. Then it floated an A line bus rapid transit (BRT) plan from the waterfront to the airport. That hasn't won expected accolades from Mountain councillors, and the province has released no details since.

That leaves $125 million unspent in the $1 billion project. It would cost an estimated $225 million to run LRT to Eastgate Square, which means Hamilton needs more money from the province to make it work.

A plan that goes to Eastgate Square would win over some on a city council where the majority appear to be undecided or opposed to the project.

At least four councillors interviewed say they're more likely to approve the project if it goes to Eastgate Square. That includes Arlene VanderBeek, councillor for Ward 13 in Dundas, who said she's undecided right now.

"It's a much better plan if it goes to Eastgate Square," she said.

As for her own vote, "Does it factor in? I think it factors in. Does it decide it? No."

Terry Whitehead, Ward 8 councillor, said his own support hinges on Eastgate Square.

"There are a lot of discussions going on," he said. "But I'm waiting to see if it bears fruit."

Without an Eastgate Square connection, he said, people would have to get off at Queenston traffic circle and have to get on another bus to go to Eastgate.

"I've talked to people who have said they wouldn't transfer," he said. "What's the point?" In addition, he said, "there's no north-south connectivity at the Queenston traffic circle."

Wednesday is a pivotal day for the project. That's when council will vote on whether to approve an update to a 2011 environmental assessment. The original environment assessment already included a plan to Eastgate Square.

The city has to submit the plan to the province for LRT to continue. If it's not approved soon, the city risks missing the 2019 deadline to start construction.

Mayor Fred Eisenberger confirmed the city and province are talking about Eastgate Square.

"I'm doing everything I can to get this EA approved and move on to the next steps," he said.

[eatboots]

Originally Posted by king10

Why did Wynne just last week say it wasn't tied to LRT? They need to release a joint message and be on the same page.

She said it was for transit and Hamilton had decided on LRT, she also said she couldn't believe they were still debating the issue.

[king10]

some potential challenges identified in this article

http://www.thespec.com/opinion-story/7259156-a-civil-engineer-looks-at-hamilton-s-lrt/

[oldcoote]

converting at least one lane westbound on Main would help this no? One-ways create bottlenecks. Same thing happens when there is a traffic accident on the 403. Everything westbound bottlenecks.