Winnipeg | Roads & Infrastructure

[bomberjet]

Thanks cllew.

Funny how that website they're basically blaming CN for not allowing work to proceed. CN does not give a — about anything other than they're own work. That area is super busy for CN as it is the main switching leads for Symington, which is essentially they're main marshalling yard for east-west traffic through Canada. Every CN train travels through there. It's all about the monies.

[rrskylar]

Originally Posted by MG922

Speaking of that bridge...there's a handy website that someone created that has a few more details. Someone actually submitted FIPPA requests to get all this information!!

http://www.symingtonscandal.ca/

Just sad, no money to fix roads, bridges and other important infrastructure and yet the province now needs to squander $35 million fixing a poorly designed and badly constructed four year old stadium!

[jmt18325]

Originally Posted by rrskylar

Just sad, no money to fix roads, bridges and other important infrastructure and yet the province now needs to squander $35 million fixing a poorly designed and badly constructed four year old stadium!

Just to keep it straight, the province is spending $600M on provincial highways this year. They've spent about $5B over the last decade.

[Reignman]

Just spent a weekend in Fargo. Aside from the general observation that their infrastructure is light years ahead of ours, some more detailed observations from the areas I visited:

- No potholes encountered
- main routes that carry heavy traffic are built with concrete and are in excellent condition, opposite of Winnipeg's asphalt covered and bump/pothole littered main routes
- proper merge lanes at medium to large intersections. No exceptions
- Any uncontrolled left turns along main routes have a dedicated turning lane. No direct left turns from the inner lane.
- No ugly gravel shoulders on expressways, as seen on Bishop, Lagimodiere, etc.
- No ugly 4x4 tire tracks seen on shoulders or boulevards along any routes
- traffic lights timed appropriately
- No sand or dirt anywhere on their streets
- way less garbage littering the city

Compared to a small town like Fargo (and really any other city), Winnipeg's infrastructure is functionally and aesthetically digusting.

[jmt18325]

That's not really fair when it comes to garbage - Winnipeg's spring cleaning started today. It's likely that Fargo was already cleaned, as it is further south and warms and melts sooner.

Small cities in the US are very lucky to have huge (and disappearing) transfers from the US federal government that pay for infrastructure. Most of it is because of legacy spending. For the last few years, the US has actually spent significantly less (in percentage terms) on infrastructure than Canada, as we have increased our spending while theirs has been down.

[jmt18325]

Thinking about this further - the implication here is that Fargo is somehow better than Winnipeg. Winnipeg literally has 8 times as many people. I mean, New York is also dirtier than Fargo, and had crappy infrastructure in comparison. Clearly Fargo is better.

[Reignman]

Originally Posted by jmt18325

Thinking about this further - the implication here is that Fargo is somehow better than Winnipeg. Winnipeg literally has 8 times as many people. I mean, New York is also dirtier than Fargo, and had crappy infrastructure in comparison. Clearly Fargo is better.

Infrastructure wise...there is no comparison. Not only is it better, but they adhere to standards there. As for the larger city equals a dirtier and less maintained city, how about Calgary, Edmonton, Ottawa, etc.

[jmt18325]

Originally Posted by Reignman

Infrastructure wise...there is no comparison. Not only is it better, but they adhere to standards there. As for the larger city equals a dirtier and less maintained city, how about Calgary, Edmonton, Ottawa, etc.

Calgary is the cleanest city in the world, and Ottawa the 4th. Edmonton less so. Winnipeg is always very dirty after the spring melt, and remarkably clean after the spring cleaning.

If Fargo had to pay for their own infrastructure, as Winnipeg does, things would be different. Remember also that Winnipeg and Manitoba have spent billions of dollars to divert water in ways that Fargo has not (it's not that many years ago that Fargo was almost destroyed by water that Winnipeg mostly shrugged off). Imagine if that same money could have went to highway infrastructure instead.

[esquire]

Fargo is a great city from an infrastructure standpoint, as long as you don't ever need to take the bus.

[rrskylar]

Originally Posted by Reignman

Just spent a weekend in Fargo. Aside from the general observation that their infrastructure is light years ahead of ours, some more detailed observations from the areas I visited:

- No potholes encountered
- main routes that carry heavy traffic are built with concrete and are in excellent condition, opposite of Winnipeg's asphalt covered and bump/pothole littered main routes
- proper merge lanes at medium to large intersections. No exceptions
- Any uncontrolled left turns along main routes have a dedicated turning lane. No direct left turns from the inner lane.
- No ugly gravel shoulders on expressways, as seen on Bishop, Lagimodiere, etc.
- No ugly 4x4 tire tracks seen on shoulders or boulevards along any routes
- traffic lights timed appropriately
- No sand or dirt anywhere on their streets
- way less garbage littering the city

Compared to a small town like Fargo (and really any other city), Winnipeg's infrastructure is functionally and aesthetically digusting.

Add to that lower property taxes. Fargo isn't that small anymore with an Fargo-Moorhead metro of 233K slightly bigger than Regina!

[jmt18325]

Originally Posted by rrskylar

Add to that lower property taxes. Fargo isn't that small anymore with an Fargo-Moorhead metro of 233K slightly bigger than Regina!

Sorry, Winnipeg only has 3.5 x as many people as Fargo.

The reality is, they aren't comparable cities.

[roccerfeller]

Originally Posted by Reignman

Infrastructure wise...there is no comparison. Not only is it better, but they adhere to standards there. As for the larger city equals a dirtier and less maintained city, how about Calgary, Edmonton, Ottawa, etc.

The big thing is $$$

For Fargo -> American Federal government.

For AB cities, oil $ and more money redistributed from the province, and higher taxes (Peg had property tax freeze for the longest time this adds up over a decade++, we also don't get a fair share of provincial funds redistributed here imo though others may argue that point, MB doesn't have anywhere near the same oil industry here making the provincial gov't the necessary funding to redistribute towards infrastructure and theres a large deficit right now; a lot of things add up to make the reality different - case in point Calgary has more than 3x the money to work with than Winnipeg, yet only a ~50% larger population to draw from...there are certainly more funds that could theoretically come our way)

Ottawa -> we all pay tax towards keeping that city clean (everyone in the country does), Ontario also has more $ to pour towards Ottawa, and there is more effort made keeping the capitol region clean.

Does Winnipeg's infrastructure need to be improved? Absolutely. Is it lagging behind the times? A resounding absolutely. Do I disagree with what you're getting at? Nope.

But it is worth pointing out that Winnipeg isn't in the same position as other cities; there are realities that contribute towards why things are the way they are here. To change parts of the city like Bishop and Lag into proper free flowing routes, would be a billion dollar project at least and we just don't have that kind of money.

Also, as jmt noted, the province has really stepped up how much money is committed to roads here...the perimeter is in dire need of getting on par with something like Anthony Henday, but again funding comes into play.

There is also political wherewithal as well, that is the other half of the equation....but then when the politicians get into office and actually see the money they have available to them, the realities may change the ideals. Infrastructure could still be improved in Calgary, there are similar problems there as here in terms of decades long projects that are on the back burner never to see the light of day because of $...I can say there are some projects that are not feasible there right now or in the near future either even if oil picks back up, despite such projects being on the drawing board for years if not a decade or two of three already.

[blueandgoldguy]

It does seem like Winnipeg's roads are dirtier and more "grit-filled" in the spring and summer than when I was a teen in the 80s and 90s...or maybe I just noticed those things more as I got older.

Wasn't the street cleaning budget in Winnipeg cutback in the early 90s by the Thompson Administration? Maybe that accounts for the dirtier streets assumin that funding has never returned to pre-90s levels.

[jmt18325]

I haven't found that. I find that on years that more sand is used, the streets are a lot dirtier in the spring.

[cllew]

Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy

It does seem like Winnipeg's roads are dirtier and more "grit-filled" in the spring and summer than when I was a teen in the 80s and 90s...or maybe I just noticed those things more as I got older.

Wasn't the street cleaning budget in Winnipeg cutback in the early 90s by the Thompson Administration? Maybe that accounts for the dirtier streets assumin that funding has never returned to pre-90s levels.

also for the fall of 2016 the pre winter leaf cleaning was canceled to save money so there is more debris on the streets this spring then there would normally be.

There was talk at City Hall about maybe doing some fall cleaning in 2017 in the areas with lots of trees to reduce the amount of spring cleaning in 2018.

[Curmudgeon]

jmt18325 wrote: "Thinking about this further - the implication here is that Fargo is somehow better than Winnipeg. Winnipeg literally has 8 times as many people. I mean, New York is also dirtier than Fargo, and had crappy infrastructure in comparison. Clearly Fargo is better".

Winnipeg does not have 8 times the population of Fargo. Metro Fargo-Moorhead has about 225,000 people, the same population as Regina. Winnipeg is less than 4 times larger. The difference in climate has nothing to do with it, Winnipeg is only very slightly colder. The reality is that Fargo is simply more affluent, as are the Twin Cities, than Winnipeg.

Other things that I notice when visiting Fargo, and the Upper Midwest in general:

A feeling of safety for the person and property in all areas;
Very much better service in restaurants;
Few to no panhandlers, no appearance of true destitution which is common in Winnipeg, more common in Winnipeg even than in Mexico;
Far less propensity for anti-social behaviour such as booming music in the cars, swearing, littering and allowing dogs to bark;
Newer cars on the roads;
And of course, just about everything is so much less expensive.

[jmt18325]

More common than in Mexico - rrrriiiiggghhht. I love Puerto Vallarta, but...

Also, I corrected myself on the population statistics - it's 3.5 times for the metro. That's more of a difference than between Winnipeg and Vancouver.

Most of the freeways you see in those cities were paid for by Washington - it has nothing to do with affluence. I also know that the melt time is very different. Where I live, 3 hours north of Winnipeg, there is often snow for an extra month. Fargo would melt at least a month earlier, so it can be cleaned earlier. As for safety, Winnipeg is fine. It's safer than most US cities the same size or larger.

[Curmudgeon]

I was referring to true destitution, not simply to poverty. Clearly there is also significant poverty in the Upper Midwest, but in cities such as Fargo, Minneapolis, Sioux Falls, Des Moines, Madison, etc., I just do not see the numbers of truly destitute people that I see here and nor did I see as many even in Mexico City or other Mexican cities. I would tend to agree that Winnipeg is safer than most American cities of its size, but Manitoba does have higher rates of violent crime than both of the Dakotas, Minnesota or Iowa.

[Curmudgeon]

The climate is nearly identical in Fargo, it is slightly warmer in the winter, by about 3 or 4° on average, but it also receives more snow. The snow certainly does not melt a month earlier, perhaps a week or two at most. In much of northern Minnesota, esp. as you go further east, it is on the ground longer than in Winnipeg.

The two interstates are funded by the federal government correct, and they are beautiful, but the local streets are in far better condition than they are in Winnipeg. There is something wrong with the methods of construction used here, or perhaps it's just the surfacing materials are of lesser quality.

Fargo is generally cleaner and better maintained than Winnipeg year round. Keep in mind that they do use less sand and gravel and more salt. The grass on the boulevards is well kept in summer and sidewalks are kept much more free of ice in winter, though this may have much to do with the greater propensity of Americans to litigate and the higher damages which are generally awarded. They have terrible public transportation though, as do the Twin Cities for a metro of 3 million. A car is an absolute necessity. Except in the big northeastern cities, Chicago, San Francisco and Portland, that is much the case in the entire country.

[Reignman]

The things that bother me the most out of the issues I outlined are:

1) The lack of focus on the main routes in Winnipeg that carry most of the traffic. Streets like Pembina and Fermor are in horrendous shape and have been neglected for years. Fermor between St. Anne's and Archibald, and east of the Fermor/Lag intersection and Pembina south of confusion corner being the prime examples. Yes I know Pembina is being rehabbed there now but why did it take so — long? Any rough streets in Fargo are side streets. Main routes are in excellent condition.

2) The general lack of concern of appearance of our roadways. As I mentioned earlier, streets like Lag and Bishop have boulevards with huge patches of gravel, and dirt shoulders. Both are littered with tire tracks. It is so ugly and depressing and the city doesn't seem to care. I imagine CPT will be the same way in 10 years.

3) The lack of adherence to any standards when building roads. You never know when to expect a merge lane when there should be one, you have left turning cars stopping In the middle of the inside lane on busy streets because no turn lane was provided. Just a median opening. In Fargo, they seem to follow standards when constructing roads and don't deviate for anyone or anything.