Stadiums and Arenas of Canada part 2

[wave46]

Originally Posted by SaskScraper

Kind of hard to say Golden Horseshoe has a NFL team then if it can't support the team on its own without American's help, none of the teams on The Prairies can rely on American's to support their teams but some how The Prairies can support more teams, and Golden Horseshoe market is tapped out.

I'm not sure if I'm not explaining myself correctly or what, but "The Prairies" are not a single market. Someone from Winnipeg is not going to go to Calgary or wherever for a NHL game on a regular basis. Or CFL game or whatnot.

The reason the Prairies can support more teams is that the professional sports leagues that govern each sport give each team an exclusive area to which they have a monopoly on. As the markets on the Prairies are spread out, there's no worry about infringing on another's market. A bunch of smaller, more spread out cities will tend to have more sports teams than a large, concentrated urban area.

The problem with the Golden Horseshoe isn't demand (there's lots of that), it is that introducing another team on top of another team's area is a big no-no without a major compensation package.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by SaskScraper

Nothing really supports that theory, football has been on the decline in GTA in recent years, NFL won't be coming back anytime soon. Except for maybe the theory anything shiny & with the words 'Made in America' stamped on it will succeed in Toronto.

Bet on it. The NFL is way more popular than the NBA and MLS in Ontario and almost as popular as MLB - and that's with no team in the province.

Don't forget an NFL team only has 8 home dates a year. Usually on Sundays which makes it easy for out-of-towners to come to games.

An NFL team in Toronto would draw fans from Ottawa, London, Sudbury, Kingston, North Bay, etc., and even some from Quebec and the Maritimes.

Make no mistake. It would be a tremendous success. If you think the Raptors have done well, you'd be shocked at how well the Toronto NFLers would do.

[SaskScraper]

Originally Posted by wave46

I'm not sure if I'm not explaining myself correctly or what, but "The Prairies" are not a single market. Someone from Winnipeg is not going to go to Calgary or wherever for a NHL game on a regular basis. Or CFL game or whatnot.

The reason the Prairies can support more teams is that the professional sports leagues that govern each sport give each team an exclusive area to which they have a monopoly on. As the markets on the Prairies are spread out, there's no worry about infringing on another's market. A bunch of smaller, more spread out cities will tend to have more sports teams than a large, concentrated urban area.

The problem with the Golden Horseshoe isn't demand (there's lots of that), it is that introducing another team on top of another team's area is a big no-no without a major compensation package.

NYC has 3 NHL teams in a very small area so it can't be that.. the powers that be just think it's too big of a risk splitting up the pie into smaller & smaller pieces may not be beneficial.

Originally posted by Acajack
Bet on it. The NFL is way more popular than the NBA and MLS in Ontario and almost as popular as MLB - and that's with no team in the province.
Don't forget an NFL team only has 8 home dates a year. Usually on Sundays which makes it easy for out-of-towners to come to games.
An NFL team in Toronto would draw fans from Ottawa, London, Sudbury, Kingston, North Bay, etc., and even some from Quebec and the Maritimes.
Make no mistake. It would be a tremendous success. If you think the Raptors have done well, you'd be shocked at how well the Toronto NFLers would do.

too bad there isn't a way to test your theory,
anyways, I guess we will just never know how popular NFL football would be received in Toronto. it's just too far-fetched.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by SaskScraper

NYC has 3 NHL teams in a very small area so it can't be that.. the powers that be just think it's too big of a risk splitting up the pie into smaller & smaller pieces may not be beneficial.
.

Yes, it is that. The NHL hasn't allowed an expansion team onto the turf of an existing club in almost 25 years. Plus the Maple Leafs are the league's most valuable franchise and carry a lot of weight around the Board of Governors table.

A second NHL team in the wider GTA would do fine. (Certainly, relative to any number of current sad-sack franchises in the league.)

I get the impression you don't fully grasp just how much money and population (and therefore disposable entertainment and corporate dollars) there is in the Golden Horseshoe region.

[esquire]

^ On bringing in multiple teams to the same market, it is my understanding that the NHL allowed another team in the NYC area as a pre-emptive measure to keep rival leagues out of the Nassau Coliseum when it was first built... I've heard the WHA mentioned even though it didn't exist in 1970, so I'm not sure how much truth there is to that.

But how did the league come to allow the Colorado Rockies to move to New Jersey? In hindsight it's amazing that the league allowed a third NYC metro area team.

I have no doubt that a second GTA NHL team would be a money machine. In some ways it's too bad that some lameass US franchise can't be converted to another Toronto team... I think it would be interesting.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by SaskScraper

too bad there isn't a way to test your theory,
anyways, I guess we will just never know how popular NFL football would be received in Toronto. it's just too far-fetched.

Oh I know my theory won't likely be tested. That doesn't mean it's not on pretty solid ground.

Having lived much of my life in Eastern Ontario and Ottawa, I have a pretty wide base of acquaintances.

Based on guys I know and their interests, I could easily fill up several buses based on those I know would likely go to Toronto to see the NFL at least once a season.

And that's just people I know personally.

[esquire]

^ Given the Jays and Raptors success, I can't imagine that a NFL team in Toronto would not do well.

The biggest obstacle that it would run up against, however, is the tendency of our governments to be far less generous to sports teams than their US counterparts. The ACC was a sure thing for MLSE as far as investments go, but who is going to roll the dice on a billion dollar plus NFL stadium? (LV's new stadium is projected to cost US$1.9 billion, for context)

Once you factor in the immense franchise AND stadium costs, it looks a lot less feasible for Toronto when they're up against any number of US cities that will provide generous assistance to NFL owners.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ Given the Jays and Raptors success, I can't imagine that a NFL team in Toronto would not do well.

The biggest obstacle that it would run up against, however, is the tendency of our governments to be far less generous to sports teams than their US counterparts. The ACC was a sure thing for MLSE as far as investments go, but who is going to roll the dice on a billion dollar plus NFL stadium? (LV's new stadium is projected to cost US$1.9 billion, for context)

Once you factor in the immense franchise AND stadium costs, it looks a lot less feasible for Toronto when they're up against any number of US cities that will provide generous assistance to NFL owners.

Yes, that is one of the big question marks. That and the NFL's interest in Toronto as anything more than a TV and merchandise market.

[SaskScraper]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Yes, it is that. The NHL hasn't allowed an expansion team onto the turf of an existing club in almost 25 years. Plus the Maple Leafs are the league's most valuable franchise and carry a lot of weight around the Board of Governors table.

A second NHL team in the wider GTA would do fine. (Certainly, relative to any number of current sad-sack franchises in the league.)

I get the impression you don't fully grasp just how much money and population (and therefore disposable entertainment and corporate dollars) there is in the Golden Horseshoe region.

I must be way out to lunch, I could have sworn Rangers and Canadiens were more valuable franchises, than the Maple Leafs.

All I know is The Prairies and Golden Horseshoe is about same population, personal incomes are higher in The Prairies though, because it's so expensive to live in GTA it really cuts into disposable income and therefore people can't go out as much for entertainment in Toronto.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ On bringing in multiple teams to the same market, it is my understanding that the NHL allowed another team in the NYC area as a pre-emptive measure to keep rival leagues out of the Nassau Coliseum when it was first built... I've heard the WHA mentioned even though it didn't exist in 1970, so I'm not sure how much truth there is to that.

But how did the league come to allow the Colorado Rockies to move to New Jersey? In hindsight it's amazing that the league allowed a third NYC metro area team.
.

Maybe it's because there was only one prospective owner and he absolutely wanted to move to New Jersey? Aside from him the team might have folded...

Rumours also had the Rockies moving to Ottawa at one point but that did not happen.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by SaskScraper

I must be way out to lunch, I could have sworn Rangers and Canadiens were more valuable franchises, than the Maple Leafs.

All I know is The Prairies and Golden Horseshoe is about same population, personal incomes are higher in The Prairies though, because it's so expensive to live in GTA it really cuts into disposable income and therefore people can't go out as much for entertainment in Toronto.

OK... are we heading into "the Prairies would be a better place for an NFL team than Toronto" territory here?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by SaskScraper

I must be way out to lunch, I could have sworn Rangers and Canadiens were more valuable franchises, than the Maple Leafs.
.

OK, "one of the most valuable" franchises then. It can change from year to year with any of the three swapping positions.

[SaskScraper]

Originally Posted by Acajack

OK... are we heading into "the Prairies would be a better place for an NFL team than Toronto" territory here?

oh my, blush*
no really? ..do you really think so?

ok.. but only if YOU say so

[esquire]

^ How about in Saskatoon? This way it would be a really convenient central location for those of us in Alberta, Manitoba and southern Sask to fly/drive into!

[HomeInMyShoes]

I'm pretty sure the argument is sort of that the NFL wouldn't survive in Toronto.

I think it would. It's a short season with great days to play (outside of the occasional Monday Night game). The 6,000,000 people in the Toronto area doesn't even include Hamilton, Kitchener-Waterloo and London, all of which are a shorter (although probably more traffic) drive, but maybe not on a Sunday than Regina is to Saskatoon, let alone any other prairie center of population.

Agreed that the top-three NHL franchises are a rounding-error away from each other every year. Montreal is probably the weakest from a population-draw standpoint, although the Rangers have to fight with the Islanders and Devils who are all within the GTA range if we think about comparisons.

The only reason I don't want the NFL in Toronto is it would probably end the Argonauts for good. Now if Halifax would get their act together and get a franchise I would be less appalled, but it would be nice to have Toronto and Halifax and ten teams. But that's me. I live in Saskatchewan and even if I go to games rarely, the CFL is part of life around here. Game days are green. It's a lot of fun in the city on game days and even just during the season. Even when we are doing poorly.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by esquire

But how did the league come to allow the Colorado Rockies to move to New Jersey? In hindsight it's amazing that the league allowed a third NYC metro area team.
.

The NYC metro area is huge. Like 20-25 million huge. That helps, along with the northeast US being the most pro-hockey area of the country.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ Given the Jays and Raptors success, I can't imagine that a NFL team in Toronto would not do well.

The biggest obstacle that it would run up against, however, is the tendency of our governments to be far less generous to sports teams than their US counterparts. The ACC was a sure thing for MLSE as far as investments go, but who is going to roll the dice on a billion dollar plus NFL stadium? (LV's new stadium is projected to cost US$1.9 billion, for context)

Once you factor in the immense franchise AND stadium costs, it looks a lot less feasible for Toronto when they're up against any number of US cities that will provide generous assistance to NFL owners.

That, and the Bills would feel it too. No sense bringing a new team in if it only serves to help kill an existing franchise.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by SaskScraper

I must be way out to lunch, I could have sworn Rangers and Canadiens were more valuable franchises, than the Maple Leafs.

All I know is The Prairies and Golden Horseshoe is about same population, personal incomes are higher in The Prairies though, because it's so expensive to live in GTA it really cuts into disposable income and therefore people can't go out as much for entertainment in Toronto.

The Prairies are spread out. The Golden Horseshoe is concentrated. People will not drive hours and hours to attend a hockey game 40 times a year, especially in winter.

As for disposable wealth, there are a lot more upper income people in a smaller area in the GTA who will spend five-figures for seasons tickets. That, and the corporate support in Toronto is huge.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by wave46

That, and the Bills would feel it too. No sense bringing a new team in if it only serves to help kill an existing franchise.

Are the Bills that dependent on Toronto?

[Taeolas]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ On bringing in multiple teams to the same market, it is my understanding that the NHL allowed another team in the NYC area as a pre-emptive measure to keep rival leagues out of the Nassau Coliseum when it was first built... I've heard the WHA mentioned even though it didn't exist in 1970, so I'm not sure how much truth there is to that.

But how did the league come to allow the Colorado Rockies to move to New Jersey? In hindsight it's amazing that the league allowed a third NYC metro area team.

I have no doubt that a second GTA NHL team would be a money machine. In some ways it's too bad that some lameass US franchise can't be converted to another Toronto team... I think it would be interesting.

From what I understand and my gut feel about it from listening to it through the years (and I don't regularly follow sports), the issue with another GTA NHL team is partly the Leafs (and to a secondary effect, the Sabres and the Redwings) don't want their markets carved up.

But overall, the feeling I get is that it will be a warm day in Alert before Betteman will grudgingly allow another Canadian team in the NHL, even if it is basically a team that would be a license to print money. Winnipeg got the Jets back and QC will probably get the Nordiques back eventually; but both cities have history behind them. And even then, the Jets basically had to wait for a 1 in a million confluence of events to get the League to let them pull the Thrashers up there. (Something QC is still waiting for)

To carve up the Leafs market to add a new GTA team with no legacy... The League's gonna fight that tooth and nail to the bitter end, just to make sure there won't be a "Make it Nine!" push for Canadian teams in the League. (And that's assuming QC makes it eight).