Stadiums and Arenas of Canada part 2

[wave46]

Originally Posted by SaskScraper

I thought you were trying to explain how The Prairies are more spread out, where do you draw the line than, America as part of Canada is ok if adding it into Ontario, but not if including America in The Prairies?
Minneapolis to Winnipeg is 600km fyi
Edmonton to Winnipeg is 1200km

The Prairies are more spread out, we agree on this.

Population is not the only determinant of sporting teams as each has a dedicated market area that they have exclusivity to - unless the market is huge (i.e. the New York metropolitan area). In the Prairies, the markets are spread far apart - I think the closest cities are 250km apart - which means that you can place more teams without infringing on others rights. Thus, you can have 3 NHL teams and 4 CFL teams (still don't know where you are getting the number 12 from).

Buffalo definitely falls into the Toronto regional market and vice-versa, given the proximity of the cities. The NFL considers Toronto as part of the Bills' market. Hamilton has such a difficult time getting an NHL team due to infringing on the Sabres rights (and the Leafs too). I'm fairly certain that the Raptors and Blue Jays consider Buffalo part of their 'turf' if you will.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

$108 million for a spring training ballpark?!?

Shows how rich that club and its owners are.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Shows how rich that club and its owners are.

They also got a deal on their home ballfield too.

[SaskScraper]

Originally Posted by wave46

The Prairies are more spread out, we agree on this.

Population is not the only determinant of sporting teams as each has a dedicated market area that they have exclusivity to - unless the market is huge (i.e. the New York metropolitan area). In the Prairies, the markets are spread far apart - I think the closest cities are 250km apart - which means that you can place more teams without infringing on others rights. Thus, you can have 3 NHL teams and 4 CFL teams (still don't know where you are getting the number 12 from).

Buffalo definitely falls into the Toronto regional market and vice-versa, given the proximity of the cities. The NFL considers Toronto as part of the Bills' market. Hamilton has such a difficult time getting an NHL team due to infringing on the Sabres rights (and the Leafs too). I'm fairly certain that the Raptors and Blue Jays consider Buffalo part of their 'turf' if you will.

NFL, MLB, & NBA actually consider parts of The Prairies as part of their market too and it's the Minneapolis teams that reach this market as part of their 'turf', Delta airlines promotes this connection.
so where do you draw the 'line'?

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by wave46

I think how well we are served in terms of pro sports accurately reflects the demand in this country (notable exception: the NHL).

The development of professional sports has also been stunted by what's next door. If the USA had 35 million people, Canadians would be more focused on building our own leagues rather than watching someone else's.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by isaidso

The development of professional sports has also been stunted by what's next door. If there were no USA, Canadians would be more focused on building our own leagues rather than watching someone else's.

It is similar to the issue Canadian TV faces. The Aussies and Brits are geographically isolated, so they develop their own indigenous programming. We get inundated with American programming.

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Shows how rich that club and its owners are.

Shows you how rich and gullible Floridans are. The club isn't spending $100 million of their own money to upgrade a 3 million dollar, 5000 seat stadium.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

Shows you how rich and gullible Floridans are. The club isn't spending $100 million of their own money to upgrade a 3 million dollar, 5000 seat stadium.

oh.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by SaskScraper

NFL, MLB, & NBA actually consider parts of The Prairies as part of their market too and it's the Minneapolis teams that reach this market as part of their 'turf', Delta airlines promotes this connection.
so where do you draw the 'line'?

Myself: Reasonable commuting distance by automobile. About 500kms max, but realistically about 150-250ish kms. Outside of that distance, going to a game is a once in a while event, not a daily/weekly thing.

By that standard, the Prairies are 4 different markets and the Golden Horseshoe is one. Buffalo can either be included or excluded in that.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by wave46

It is similar to the issue Canadian TV faces. The Aussies and Brits are geographically isolated, so they develop their own indigenous programming. We get inundated with American programming.

Canadian programming is improving though, even within the space of the last decade.

I'm old enough to remember the programming that existed in Canada in to '60s and '70s. There was none. The height of Canadian programming then was "The Friendly Giant" and "Mr. Dress-up". Even in the '90s, the apex of Canadian programming was "The Beachcombers"

I think the reason why things are improving now is the TV multiverse, with the panoply of channels in other markets hungry for content, allowing for co-production and sales opportunities........

[esquire]

Originally Posted by SaskScraper

NFL, MLB, & NBA actually consider parts of The Prairies as part of their market too and it's the Minneapolis teams that reach this market as part of their 'turf', Delta airlines promotes this connection.
so where do you draw the 'line'?

If so, then we're a pretty marginal part of their market. There are a few Twins fans around here (although the numbers are dwarfed by Jays fans), a few Vikings fans and a maybe tiny handful of Timberwolves fans. I can't imagine that they have any appreciable impact on those teams' bottom lines.

[FrankieFlowerpot]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

Shows you how rich and gullible Floridans are. The club isn't spending $100 million of their own money to upgrade a 3 million dollar, 5000 seat stadium.

And they aren't even doing that.

According to parks and recreation director Vince Gizzi, the stadium renovations will account for about 40 percent of the total $81 million cost. The rest will go toward building a new training clubhouse at the team's current training facility site at the Englebert Complex on Solon Avenue. Of the $81 million cost of the stadium, the team will pay about $15.7 million, and the public about $65 million.

The $81m is in US dollars.

And this came up in the news again yesterday because of the consultant they used to assess the impacts having the stadium has on the local economy in Dunedin vastly overinflated his numbers.

http://deadspin.com/floridas-go-to-stadium-economist-is-a-hack-a-shill-an-1794379314

Emails sent by the Blue Jays revealed apparent frustrations at time with their consultant, including a suggestion on Dec. 17, 2016 that Bonn use more realistic numbers in one of his calculations.

Bonn responded, “This is your call, but as your consultant, I do not recommend going down this path, as it generates only a negative outcome and provides a good argument to defeat your proposal.”

Emails also indicate that Bonn was concerned with preserving robust estimates and he suggested removing the methodology from his report to reduce the number of questions county leaders might ask.

When even the rapacious sports team trying to bilk the public out of millions suggests you tamp down on your bullshit, you know it’s bad.

The Blue Jays also had to correct Bonn’s math:

When he presented his draft report to the Blue Jays, the team had to make several corrections – both to Bonn’s inflated assumptions and his arithmetic. Bonn encouraged the team to stick with the inflated numbers at one point.

[SaskScraper]

Originally Posted by wave46

Myself: Reasonable commuting distance by automobile. About 500kms max, but realistically about 150-250ish kms. Outside of that distance, going to a game is a once in a while event, not a daily/weekly thing.

By that standard, the Prairies are 4 different markets and the Golden Horseshoe is one. Buffalo can either be included or excluded in that.

I'd say anytime you have to take your passport to a game you aren't really part of that teams main market base. I can't really imagine people from Buffalo going to Toronto when Cleveland has better teams to cheer for.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by SaskScraper

I'd say anytime you have to take your passport to a game you aren't really part of that teams main market base. I can't really imagine people from Buffalo going to Toronto when Cleveland has better teams to cheer for.

I've seen plenty of New York state licence plates at Blue Jays games. Likewise, I know of many people who travel from Toronto to Buffalo for NHL and NFL games. The Bills ownership claims that 20% of the fanbase at Ralph Wilson Stadium is from the Greater Toronto Area.

Source: http://www.680news.com/2013/01/29/buffal...-play-games-in-toronto-at-rogers-centre/

Similarly, a conservative estimate puts about 15% of the Sabres' attendance due to Canadians.

Source: http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1527002514535174?journalCode=jsea

Yes, fewer Americans proportionally will travel north for a Blue Jays/Raptors game, but it still is a significant number. Enough so that for the purpose of leagues that have no competition from the other side of the border (basically, the NFL, NBA and MLB) it can be considered one market.

[SaskScraper]

^^
I wonder why the Bills had to stop playing games in Toronto if Bills ownership claims 20% of fans from GTA. My guess is Toronto just can't support hosting even a single NFL game per year.

which brings me to my original statement..

Originally Posted by SaskScraper
Demand definitely defines what pro teams and their stadiums exist in certain regions.
The Prairies (in Canada) have like twelve pro sports teams which adds up to 4 NHL sized arenas, 4 CFL stadiums & a couple pro baseball/soccer stadiums in use. Golden Horseshoe in Ontario (in Canada) has about the same population as The Prairies but has only half the pro sports teams as The Prairies. 2 NHL sized arenas, 2 CFL smaller sized stadiums & 1 baseball stadium in Toronto/Hamilton area.

[FrankieFlowerpot]

Originally Posted by SaskScraper

^^
I wonder why the Bills had to stop playing games in Toronto if Bills ownership claims 20% of fans from GTA. My guess is Toronto just can't support hosting even a single NFL game per year.

which brings me to my original statement..

Because they were stupidly priced and you couldn't tailgate like you could at regular NFL games.

That and the opponents for the most part sucked.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by SaskScraper

I wonder why the Bills had to stop playing games in Toronto if Bills ownership claims 20% of fans from GTA. My guess is Toronto just can't support hosting even a single NFL game per year.

which brings me to my original statement..

Because 80% of their fans don't come from the GTA.

You're comparing a huge region that has 4 smaller markets (Calgary, Edmonton, Saskatchewan and Manitoba) to a small region that has 1 (or maybe 2, depending on how you split it) pro sports markets. Demand is there for more teams (especially the NHL) in the GTA - league rules make it nearly impossible to capitalize on that demand.

It's an apples to oranges comparison.

[SaskScraper]

Originally Posted by wave46

Because 80% of their fans don't come from the GTA.

You're comparing a huge region that has 4 smaller markets (Calgary, Edmonton, Saskatchewan and Manitoba) to a small region that has 1 (or maybe 2, depending on how you split it) pro sports markets. Demand is there for more teams (especially the NHL) in the GTA - league rules make it nearly impossible to capitalize on that demand.

It's an apples to oranges comparison.

Kind of hard to say Golden Horseshoe has a NFL team then if it can't support the team on its own without American's help, none of the teams on The Prairies can rely on American's to support their teams but some how The Prairies can support more teams, and Golden Horseshoe market is tapped out.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by SaskScraper

Kind of hard to say Golden Horseshoe has a NFL team then if it can't support the team on its own without American's help, none of the teams on The Prairies can rely on American's to support their teams but some how The Prairies can support more teams, and Golden Horseshoe market is tapped out.

The Bills in Toronto series was not the NFL ticket that the GTA was looking for.

In the (increasingly unlikely) event that Toronto obtained an NFL team, make no mistake that it would be well-supported and a success in terms of gate, interest, sponsorships, etc.

Basketball wasn't any more popular or more deeply rooted than football is in Toronto, and look at the Raptors. Going even further back, you could say the same thing about the Blue Jays.

[SaskScraper]

Originally Posted by Acajack

The Bills in Toronto series was not the NFL ticket that the GTA was looking for.

In the (increasingly unlikely) event that Toronto obtained an NFL team, make no mistake that it would be well-supported and a success in terms of gate, interest, sponsorships, etc.

Basketball wasn't any more popular or more deeply rooted than football is in Toronto, and look at the Raptors. Going even further back, you could say the same thing about the Blue Jays.

Nothing really supports that theory, football has been on the decline in GTA in recent years, NFL won't be coming back anytime soon. Except for maybe the theory anything shiny & with the words 'Made in America' stamped on it will succeed in Toronto.