The future of Ottawa's Transit

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

The problem is that there is very limited capability of storing extra buses downtown. So if a route gets off schedule, how does it get corrected? In the past extras could be stored at Hurdman and Lebreton. That won't be possible in the future. And that is considering that in the past almost all routes ran through downtown and did not terminate there.

There is all kinds of room for stationing a few extras in the core.... if the city were willing to sacrifice a few parking spots.

And further more, there is cost pressures to avoid route overlapping downtown, even though downtown is not a one stop destination. Hopefully, the future will make it even less so.

Where is this "cost pressure" coming from? Why is the avoidance of "overlapping" a desireable goal? Overlapping routes are a feature, not a bug. The idea that this is Your One Bus is such suburban thinking.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by caveat.doctor

The schematic still seems to require a bit of pre-existing knowledge to figure out as many segments are missing labels. Would be helpful to label the ends of the lines with the route numbers so it's clear where each starts and finishes. Looking at this as a tourist for example, it's not clear to me:

Yip. It's an absolute garbage design that needs to be scrapped and replaced by a graphic designer who knows what they are doing.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

There is all kinds of room for stationing a few extras in the core.... if the city were willing to sacrifice a few parking spots.



Where is this "cost pressure" coming from? Why is the avoidance of "overlapping" a desireable goal? Overlapping routes are a feature, not a bug. The idea that this is Your One Bus is such suburban thinking.

I agree with almost everything you have said in this thread, but when you say where does this cost pressure come from you lose all credibility. Other than a soak the rich property tax argument it is clear there isn't a source of money to bail out the transit budget. Taxes and fares are already both at record highs. With the loss of the federal transit deduction especially.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by roger1818

West bound isn't so much of a problem, though some light optimization would improve things.

Westbound from Rideau to Metcalfe is terrible: poorly synched lights, too much priority given to private vehicles, too many entitled road users who think they can block transit and other flow with impunity, and a city that basically agrees with them on the last point.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

I agree with almost everything you have said in this thread, but when you say where does this cost pressure come from you lose all credibility.

Ah, so that's what it takes?

What I mean is, what is the driving force that considers overlapping routes to be an unacceptable cost that needs mitigation?

Other than a soak the rich property tax argument it is clear there isn't a source of money to bail out the transit budget. Taxes and fares are already both at record highs.

Where do Ottawans get the ludicrous idea that their municipal taxes are excessive? They are not.

With the loss of the federal transit deduction especially.

That deduction made zero difference to the bottom third of income earners, who didn't see any impact on their federal income tax. The next two thirds of income earners can absorb the modest impact. The tax credit had just about zero impact as a "nudge" to public behaviour.

[swimmer_spe]

If the problem is that the bus cannot keep to the schedule, then one would assume that the schedule needs to be changed to reflect real world times.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

Westbound from Rideau to Metcalfe is terrible: poorly synched lights, too much priority given to private vehicles, too many entitled road users who think they can block transit and other flow with impunity, and a city that basically agrees with them on the last point.

Oops. I meant eastbound.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

If the problem is that the bus cannot keep to the schedule, then one would assume that the schedule needs to be changed to reflect real world times.

Precisely. And one good way of doing that is to insert safe and convenient timepoints into the routes and schedules, and - this is important, because OC Transpo is bad at doing it - explaining to the public what timepoints are and why they are.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

Precisely. And one good way of doing that is to insert safe and convenient timepoints into the routes and schedules, and - this is important, because OC Transpo is bad at doing it - explaining to the public what timepoints are and why they are.

If you add a timepoint you might as well sever the bus route. If you allow 20 minutes from Rideau to Albert you will wait 10 minutes on a lot of runs.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

If you add a timepoint you might as well sever the bus route. If you allow 20 minutes from Rideau to Albert you will wait 10 minutes on a lot of runs.

If OC has kept good records then they could simply work those into the schedule. It may not line up as a set time every hour that the bus goes by every hour, but it will keep the bu on time. They could even add more buses during that slower time.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

If you add a timepoint you might as well sever the bus route. If you allow 20 minutes from Rideau to Albert you will wait 10 minutes on a lot of runs.

Is someone proposing a timepoint as a solution to the narrow problem of service on routes running along Wellington between Rideau and Bank/Albert?

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

If OC has kept good records then they could simply work those into the schedule. It may not line up as a set time every hour that the bus goes by every hour, but it will keep the bu on time. They could even add more buses during that slower time.

OC Transpo is sitting on a small mountain of bus data which they refuse to make readily available because of the usual stupid BS paranoid City of Ottawa reasons, which are all basically translateable as "someone might use the data for something."

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

Precisely. And one good way of doing that is to insert safe and convenient timepoints into the routes and schedules, and - this is important, because OC Transpo is bad at doing it - explaining to the public what timepoints are and why they are.

One option is to insert safe timepoints and have most buses wait several minutes at each one to ensure it doesn't get ahead of schedule (and to make sure transfers work). It makes for a reliable, but slow route. This is good for short, local routes, as passengers aren't going to be sitting on a stopped bus very often. It isn't as good for long distance trunk routes though, unless its a route that people won't use from end to end.

The other option is to make the route so frequent that it doesn't matter if it keeps to the schedule or not, as there will always be one in a couple minutes. This is the best option for major trunk routes.

Both methodologies can be used in the same system, depending on the route and time of day.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by roger1818

One option is to insert safe timepoints and have most buses wait several minutes at each one to ensure it doesn't get ahead of schedule (and to make sure transfers work). It makes for a reliable, but slow route. This is good for short, local routes, as passengers aren't going to be sitting on a stopped bus very often. It isn't as good for long distance trunk routes though, unless its a route that people won't use from end to end.

The other option is to make the route so frequent that it doesn't matter if it keeps to the schedule or not, as there will always be one in a couple minutes. This is the best option for major trunk routes.

Both methodologies can be used in the same system, depending on the route and time of day.

Maybe the plan is when the LRT is finished, they become the hold points.

I could see most, if not all buses stopping at an O-Train station. I also see them keeping extra buses at the stations so that if a bus runs late, another bus can take the spot.

And this is why having rail rapid transit will be good for the city.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by roger1818

The other option is to make the route so frequent that it doesn't matter if it keeps to the schedule or not, as there will always be one in a couple minutes. This is the best option for major trunk routes.

Both methodologies can be used in the same system, depending on the route and time of day.

Third element: actually put high-capacity buses on the routes with high and unpredictable demand, with buses prone to clumping or gapping.

The lack of capacity is especially noticeable at popular shopping times on routes running on streets like Bank and Rideau.

If anyone knows the secret to convincing OC Transpo that crush-loading is a problem on these routes, let me know, because they refuse to believe it.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

I also see them keeping extra buses at the stations so that if a bus runs late, another bus can take the spot.

They could have been doing that all along, even with bus crappid transit.

[lrt's friend]

Where is this "cost pressure" coming from? Why is the avoidance of "overlapping" a desireable goal? Overlapping routes are a feature, not a bug. The idea that this is Your One Bus is such suburban thinking.

When you split a route in two, but the two routes overlap after the split, for example between Bank and the Rideau Centre. It costs money to run both bus routes to cover that same ground. There is always pressure to contain costs and these overlaps, especially when newly created, attract attention from the accountants. We have already seen that happening with split routes being cut back downtown in off peak hours.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

OC Transpo is sitting on a small mountain of bus data which they refuse to make readily available because of the usual stupid BS paranoid City of Ottawa reasons, which are all basically translateable as "someone might use the data for something."

You could file an access to information request.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

When you split a route in two, but the two routes overlap after the split, for example between Bank and the Rideau Centre. It costs money to run both bus routes to cover that same ground. There is always pressure to contain costs and these overlaps, especially when newly created, attract attention from the accountants. We have already seen that happening with split routes being cut back downtown in off peak hours.

Translation: OC Transpo does not value the time, convenience, comfort, or safety, of its passengers.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by acottawa

You could file an access to information request.

Which will be immediately met by an utterly exhorbitant estimate for processing fees.

Or, you know, the supposedly open and accountable city of Ottawa, the imagined and self-styled tech capital of the greater Ottawa area, could release the data itself, proactively.